Eternal Security You CANNOT lose your salvation! by David J. Stewart | January 2004
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R
I remember you asking this in the other thread. I did respond to it. You probably just missed it or whatever. I will re-post what I had said over there onto here. Here is the link to the page and post: http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/147723-when-did-church-begin-4.html
Isaiah 45.25
In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.
Being in Christ is not exclusive to only Paul's mystery and the body of Christ. People saved back in Acts 2 were also in Christ. My points above still stand. And you are bypassing the elephant in the room. Which is that Paul states the body of Christ was a mystery. Since that is true, the people in Acts 2 cannot be when the body of Christ starts. They are part of the Little Flock, the believing remnant, who were looking for a kingdom on Earth.
Also, take note that Romans 16.7 says that they were his kinsmen. Who was Paul? He was a Jew. So him saying that these two were Jews gives even more evidence, but certainly not the only evidence, that they were saved under Peter's gospel. They were not members of the body of Christ.
I'll give an excerpt that goes in to better detail below from Justin Johnson if your interested.
Skeptics of the special revelation given to Paul are quick to point out that there were people “in Christ” before Paul. Out of the 78 times in the Bible the phrase “in Christ” shows up, Paul uses the phrase 75 times. It is clear that the phrase is distinctively Pauline.
Afterall, to Paul was revealed the mystery of God’s will that…
“in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him” – Ephesians 1:10
The all things in Christ consist of the prophesied earthly things, but also the heavenly things revealed as the mystery of Christ kept secret since the world began.
It is evident that God’s purpose has always been for all things to be in Christ.
So, when Paul describes Junia and Andronicus as being “in Christ before me”, this is seen as an admission that those before Paul taught the same thing as him. Yet, this would be an hasty conclusion since merely being in Christ is not the mystery of Christ kept secret since the world began (Rom 16:25). Both the prophets and the Lord in his ministry to Israel talked about being in him.
We can read in the prophets that Israel would be justified in the Lord:
“In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory. “ – Isa 45:25
Throughout the prophetic writings finding refuge in the Lord was a common theme. Being glad, rejoicing, and resting in the Lord were common admonitions.
That salvation was found in the Lord, and subsequently in the Lord Jesus Christ was no mystery.
Peter and the twelve, along with Adronicus and Junia, had to be in Christ according to God’s earthly prophetic purpose.
The phrase “In him”, found at the end of Ephesians 1:10, is the phrase used more often by John in his writings about being in Christ.
“ And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him.” – 1 John 3:24
Jesus taught his disciples to abide in him (John 15:4) as the true vine. If they did not abide, by keeping his commandments, they were cut off and cast forth.
Fortunately, your position in Christ is not that of a branch but a body member (Eph 5:30). God does not cut off body parts. You and I are in Christ according to the revelation of the mystery of Christ. Our position in Christ is without the commandments of the law, and is apart from Israel’s covenants.
Being in Christ was always part of God’s plan for heaven and earth. That Israel needed to be found in the Lord was nothing new. When Christ came, he taught they needed to be in Him, and that they would be one with the Father (John 17:21). Those in Christ according to prophecy were part of Israel’s kingdom covenants (John 15:5).
Those that are in Christ according to the mystery dispensation of Christ are part of a new creature, without Jew or Gentile (2 Cor 5:17, Col 3:10-11). Out of two, Jew and Gentile, God made one new man in Christ in this dispensation (Eph 2:15-16).
The difference between prophecy and mystery is not that one would be in Christ and the other would not. The dispensational difference is how we come to be in Christ. This has always been the difference.
The mystery of Christ explains how ungodly Gentiles could be in Christ without the law and access to the covenants. This mystery was not known by any of the prophets in time past until the Lord chose to reveal it to the apostle Paul.
Link references and video
In Christ Before Paul
Romans 16:3-16
Isaiah 45.25
In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.
Being in Christ is not exclusive to only Paul's mystery and the body of Christ. People saved back in Acts 2 were also in Christ. My points above still stand. And you are bypassing the elephant in the room. Which is that Paul states the body of Christ was a mystery. Since that is true, the people in Acts 2 cannot be when the body of Christ starts. They are part of the Little Flock, the believing remnant, who were looking for a kingdom on Earth.
Also, take note that Romans 16.7 says that they were his kinsmen. Who was Paul? He was a Jew. So him saying that these two were Jews gives even more evidence, but certainly not the only evidence, that they were saved under Peter's gospel. They were not members of the body of Christ.
I'll give an excerpt that goes in to better detail below from Justin Johnson if your interested.
Skeptics of the special revelation given to Paul are quick to point out that there were people “in Christ” before Paul. Out of the 78 times in the Bible the phrase “in Christ” shows up, Paul uses the phrase 75 times. It is clear that the phrase is distinctively Pauline.
Afterall, to Paul was revealed the mystery of God’s will that…
“in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him” – Ephesians 1:10
The all things in Christ consist of the prophesied earthly things, but also the heavenly things revealed as the mystery of Christ kept secret since the world began.
It is evident that God’s purpose has always been for all things to be in Christ.
So, when Paul describes Junia and Andronicus as being “in Christ before me”, this is seen as an admission that those before Paul taught the same thing as him. Yet, this would be an hasty conclusion since merely being in Christ is not the mystery of Christ kept secret since the world began (Rom 16:25). Both the prophets and the Lord in his ministry to Israel talked about being in him.
We can read in the prophets that Israel would be justified in the Lord:
“In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory. “ – Isa 45:25
Throughout the prophetic writings finding refuge in the Lord was a common theme. Being glad, rejoicing, and resting in the Lord were common admonitions.
That salvation was found in the Lord, and subsequently in the Lord Jesus Christ was no mystery.
Peter and the twelve, along with Adronicus and Junia, had to be in Christ according to God’s earthly prophetic purpose.
The phrase “In him”, found at the end of Ephesians 1:10, is the phrase used more often by John in his writings about being in Christ.
“ And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him.” – 1 John 3:24
Jesus taught his disciples to abide in him (John 15:4) as the true vine. If they did not abide, by keeping his commandments, they were cut off and cast forth.
Fortunately, your position in Christ is not that of a branch but a body member (Eph 5:30). God does not cut off body parts. You and I are in Christ according to the revelation of the mystery of Christ. Our position in Christ is without the commandments of the law, and is apart from Israel’s covenants.
Being in Christ was always part of God’s plan for heaven and earth. That Israel needed to be found in the Lord was nothing new. When Christ came, he taught they needed to be in Him, and that they would be one with the Father (John 17:21). Those in Christ according to prophecy were part of Israel’s kingdom covenants (John 15:5).
Those that are in Christ according to the mystery dispensation of Christ are part of a new creature, without Jew or Gentile (2 Cor 5:17, Col 3:10-11). Out of two, Jew and Gentile, God made one new man in Christ in this dispensation (Eph 2:15-16).
The difference between prophecy and mystery is not that one would be in Christ and the other would not. The dispensational difference is how we come to be in Christ. This has always been the difference.
The mystery of Christ explains how ungodly Gentiles could be in Christ without the law and access to the covenants. This mystery was not known by any of the prophets in time past until the Lord chose to reveal it to the apostle Paul.
Link references and video
In Christ Before Paul
Romans 16:3-16
M
But who do those words apply to? Every person sitting inside a church building? I would argue you are 'begging the question' as to who exactly this applies to.
Lotsa lotsa lotsa people out there sitting in church buildings every Sunday who THINK that scripture applies to them...meanwhile what REALLY applies to them are the warnings from Paul in 1Corinthians 6:9-10 -- "Be not deceived, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, etc...will inherit the kingdom of God".
People in the "church" world are deceived by the busload. They think because they "prayed a prayer" when they were 6-years-old in Vacation Bible school...that it's a done deal...and that they can contradict Paul in 1 Cor. 6...and that they can not become "deceived".
But if it wasn't possible for (erstwhile) "believers" to become deceived about their salvation status and about their prospects for inheriting the kingdom of God...Paul wouldn't have put that warning in the Bible.
The OSAS crowd utterly brushes past all of this with their "salvation presumption" problem.
Lotsa lotsa lotsa people out there sitting in church buildings every Sunday who THINK that scripture applies to them...meanwhile what REALLY applies to them are the warnings from Paul in 1Corinthians 6:9-10 -- "Be not deceived, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, etc...will inherit the kingdom of God".
People in the "church" world are deceived by the busload. They think because they "prayed a prayer" when they were 6-years-old in Vacation Bible school...that it's a done deal...and that they can contradict Paul in 1 Cor. 6...and that they can not become "deceived".
But if it wasn't possible for (erstwhile) "believers" to become deceived about their salvation status and about their prospects for inheriting the kingdom of God...Paul wouldn't have put that warning in the Bible.
The OSAS crowd utterly brushes past all of this with their "salvation presumption" problem.
The people that came to Christ before Paul even met Christ were the "faithful in Christ Jesus too". Who do you think Paul had killed when he was persecuting the church?
Jesus said "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?" Who do you think Christ was before Paul met Him on that road to Damascus? Paul was persecuting the Christians who were a part of the body of Christ which is why Jesus said - "Why are you persecuting Me?"
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R
HEY! Why did you only quote 1 Cor 6.9-10? If you go over one more verse to 1 Cor 6.11 You will read this!
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Lol. Paul says in the very same paragraph you just used to justify your "works" verse. The very next sentence discredits your context haha. Common man.
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Lol. Paul says in the very same paragraph you just used to justify your "works" verse. The very next sentence discredits your context haha. Common man.
R
I answered this question for you already because you asked it before. Everyone saved is in Christ. Being in Christ is not part of the mystery. I just answered this fully for the other guy on this forum John146. Here is the link with the answer to your question on the other thread. Just scroll down http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...lvation-david-j-stewart-january-2004-a-7.html
I definitely agree that there were different time periods in Biblical history. But to take the words of Matthew 5 (or any of the gospels) which contain the direct words of Jesus and put them in a different dispensation to say they do not directly apply to us? I will not do this.
And to say that Paul is the ultimate and final authority on Christianity? I will not do this.
And to say that Paul is the ultimate and final authority on Christianity? I will not do this.
I'm sorry...but this is complete nonsense. All those in Christ have been baptized into His body. To say that those received Christ before Paul got the revelation of the mystery of Christ are not part of the body of Christy is sheer spiritual ignorance gone to seed.
1 Corinthians 12:12-13 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
The Jews that were saved after Christ's resurrection were just as much a part of the body of Christ as those after Jesus revealed the mystery of Christ to the rest of the body of Christ by Paul.
I won't pick and chose. I will just rightly divide truth from truth. 
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
II Timothy 3:16,17
OK - I will let you to your "rightly dividing"! I am still waiting for the Biblical proof that Paul's teaching is the ultimate and supercedes the direct words of Jesus in the Gospels.
Until then I will continue rightly dividing the Scriptures the best I know through God's grace.
R
A few misconceptions. The words in Matt-John of Jesus are not the only words Jesus said. Every word on ever page of our bible is the words of Jesus. This is a weird idea I see brought up time and again - as if only the words Christ says are in the red letters. The bible is clear that every word in the bible is from God. So who is elevating some words over others, in actuality???? That's rhetorical.
As for your other issue about Paul. Christ tells you to follow Paul. He says it countless times. Ye be followers of me (Paul). He says this in one way or another a bunch of times. Do the study for yourself.
Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me. (Paul speaking)
Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. (Paul speaking)
Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.
Gal 1.11-12
But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I (Paul) neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Paul's gospel, as it says in the above verse, was neither received of man (nor did it come from a man), neither taught it, but only given by revelation from Christ.
R
I already told you once before that you use a different bible than I do. You use an Alexandrian manuscript bible. I use an Antioch bible, the KJB. You will never see these things because your bible attacks the mystery of the revelation, because the mystery is the thing that defeated Satan. As expressed in 1 Cor 2.6-8. I've already put away all of your claims/arguments in other posts. Repeating and rehashing it does no good. You want to believe the bible you have; go ahead! I'm not stopping you. This information is not for you! It's for those who want to grow in the grace and knowledge of Christ. Rightly dividing the word of truth through the apostle Paul.
M
"and such were SOME of you". He was only addressing SOME in the audience. You missed that part.
There are apparently OTHERS in the audience to whom his "ye are washed" does NOT apply...as is ALWAYS the case in every church meeting, in every church building, on every Sunday, 52 weeks a year.
Who are the "washed" and who are the "unwashed"? THAT is the question you are begging.
And so, you're dismissing Paul's warning. Can't do that, bro. If the warning didn't apply, Paul wouldn't have stated it. Not sure how you're missing that. The Bible is true. People who practice sin, go to Hell...exactly as Paul stated.
You can't contradict Paul. You can't contradict the Bible.
There are apparently OTHERS in the audience to whom his "ye are washed" does NOT apply...as is ALWAYS the case in every church meeting, in every church building, on every Sunday, 52 weeks a year.
Who are the "washed" and who are the "unwashed"? THAT is the question you are begging.
And so, you're dismissing Paul's warning. Can't do that, bro. If the warning didn't apply, Paul wouldn't have stated it. Not sure how you're missing that. The Bible is true. People who practice sin, go to Hell...exactly as Paul stated.
You can't contradict Paul. You can't contradict the Bible.
R
Yeah, that's the common response to what I said. Which is why I left out the very NEXT verse lol. Lets read 1 Cor 6.12
All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
All things are lawful for a believer, not all things are good for a believer. You can live in sin, and still be saved.
If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
When you are saved, you are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. This is why Christ says in the above verse, that even if you quit "beliving" Christ cannot deny himself. Because the Holy Spirit is IN YOU!
Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
The earnest of the Spirit is like a down payment.
That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Eph 4.30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
All things are lawful for a believer, not all things are good for a believer. You can live in sin, and still be saved.
If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
When you are saved, you are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. This is why Christ says in the above verse, that even if you quit "beliving" Christ cannot deny himself. Because the Holy Spirit is IN YOU!
Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
The earnest of the Spirit is like a down payment.
That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Eph 4.30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
You failed to see my argument. I would never say or assume that Andronicus and Junia got in Christ the same way you and I get in Christ. My argument is that there were different administrations of getting in the body of Christ. The Apostle Paul settled the Church Age by stating the mystery which had been hid but is now revealed. The way revealed to Paul was unlike any other way. Not until we get to Paul to we have sound footing. Just because they did not get in Christ the exact way does not mean they are not part of the same body. That you have not proven.
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