When Did The Church Begin

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garee

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#61
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#61
KJV1611 said:
Flesh Israel sought a kingdom of God on earth but true Israel sojourned (a temporary stay) in the land of promise waiting for the city whose builder and maker is God.
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That helps us to understand the passage in Romans.Some did not believe the word of God.But as we are informed in chapter 3 of Roman .Shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
 
KJV1611

KJV1611

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#62
Nov 23, 2013
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#62
garee said:
That helps us to understand the passage in Romans.Some did not believe the word of God.But as we are informed in chapter 3 of Roman .Shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
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Exactly, flesh Israel has never understood the gospel in the Old Testament and have always been looking for the wrong thing. :)
 
R

RomansToPhilemon

Guest
#63
#63
If you want to try to start the body of Christ in Acts 2 and anywhere else besides Act's 9, you will come across many conflicting and contradictory verses. Here is a few for you.

Hebrews 2.3-5

How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

So apparently, there was a great salvation that was FIRST spoken by the Lord. Matthew-John. And then was CONFIRMED unto them that heard him. The church in the begging of the book of Acts. These things have ALWAYS been in prophecy. They have always been prophesied. Hence, the word SPOKEN. Now if something began with the Lord and was confirmed in Acts 2. How can Paul say that the body of Christ was NEVER made known until revealed to him from Christ???

Let's compare Peter's message in Acts 2 and 3 with Paul's message and you WILL see they are not the same thing.

Acts 3.21

And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Acts 2.15-17

For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Peter says, this thing going on over here in the book of Acts is THAT which was SPOKEN BY THE PROPHET JOEL.

Now that those facts are established. Let's look at Paul. And you will know for sure that the Church in Acts 2 is NOT the body of Christ. The text won't allow it.

Eph 3.1-9

For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

If what Peter says in Acts 2 WAS MADE KNOWN from the beginning of the world. And Paul says what he preaches WAS NOT MADE KNOWN since the world began. Then they are NOT the same thing. You know good and well these verses have competing wisdom and say two different things. This is why rightly dividing the word of truth is crucial. It's not dividing truth from error. It's dividing truth from truth. Everything in the bible is truth. So if Peter contradicts Paul, you need to study to find out why.

Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church: Whereof I (Paul) am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Paul says his message is a mystery hid in God. Acts 2 cannot and never will be the body of Christ. The text won't allow it.



[video=youtube;s4bOSu8Vc5Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4bOSu8Vc5Q[/video]
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#64
#64
Spurgeoncy said:
Actually Lynn, you are right and I am wrong. The Church starts with the prophets, and Enoch was a prophet.

And Noah and Abel probably were prophets also.
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How do you know that? (Honest question.)
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#65
#65
peacefulbeliever said:
Were the OT believers born again? The congregation on the day of Pentecost, Acts 2, received holy spirit within - they became partakers of the divine nature - the "church" now is made up of born again believers who are filled with the gift of holy spirit and have "spirit" born within them - the new creation . . . there is NO language regarding the OT believers being born again sons of God. Therefore I believe the church Jesus was talking about building is the church that began on Pentecost and those born of one Spirit into one body. The mystery which was hid for ages and generations but was revealed to Paul.

mho . . . :)
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At what point were you born again?

In my mind, it was a moment before I believed and trusted God. (It had to be a moment, or I would have birthed myself.) Can you think of any of the OT believers who weren't born again? Isn't the act of believing the evidence of born-again?
 
D

Depleted

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#66
#66
RomansToPhilemon said:
Only people saved under Paul's gospel can be part of the body of Christ. That's people saved after Paul up until present day. The Church in Acts 2 is the part of Israels prophecy. The body of Christ doesn't start till Act's 9. All people before the dispensation of Grace and after the rapture will be part of Israel's kingdom on Earth. Our destiny is Heaven, not Earth. We won't rule and reign with Christ on Earth. We be in Heaven.
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Ohhhhhhhhhhhh, that is the thing you are. I knew it was funky, but didn't quite get what kind of funkiness it was. The first sentence finally nailed your kind of funkiness.
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#67
#67
garee said:
The first recorded person that was given the grace of God according to His mercy was Abel. There is no mention of Adam and Eve receiving that grace, being born again.It does not mean they did not just that it is not written.
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God made a promise to Adam and Eve. He promised one would come to destroy the serpent. Adam and Eve kept naming their kids on God's promise, thinking one of them would be that one. You don't do that if you don't trust God to keep his word. And you don't trust God at his word, unless you are born again.

They didn't realize the Savior was going to take a long time, but they had full faith he'd be one of their kids. AND they weren't wrong, because God keeps his promises.
 
Spurgeoncy

Spurgeoncy

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#68
Dec 13, 2016
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#68
Depleted said:
How do you know that? (Honest question.)
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In Jude 1:14, Jude says that Enoch 'prophecied'. Therefore Enoch was a Prophet.

Therefore he was one of the founding fathers of the Church, and he predates Abraham of course.
 
peacefulbeliever

peacefulbeliever

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#69
Feb 21, 2012
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#69
Depleted said:
At what point were you born again?

In my mind, it was a moment before I believed and trusted God. (It had to be a moment, or I would have birthed myself.) Can you think of any of the OT believers who weren't born again? Isn't the act of believing the evidence of born-again?
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When was I born again? . . . when I believed and was sealed with the gift of holy spirit. The new birth was not available until Christ's death and resurrection wherein those that are members of the body of Christ now have the divine nature born within him via the gift of holy spirit. I can't find any scripture reference of an OT believer who was born again. In fact that language appears first in John 3 . . . to be born again is to be born of the Spirit, i.e. filled with the spirit, baptized in holy spirit . . . and the gift of holy spirit was not given until Christ was crucified. Did the OT believers have holy spirit? Sure, the holy spirit was with/upon them but not IN them.
 
J

John146

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#70
Jan 13, 2016
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#70
RomansToPhilemon said:
If you want to try to start the body of Christ in Acts 2 and anywhere else besides Act's 9, you will come across many conflicting and contradictory verses. Here is a few for you.

Hebrews 2.3-5

How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

So apparently, there was a great salvation that was FIRST spoken by the Lord. Matthew-John. And then was CONFIRMED unto them that heard him. The church in the begging of the book of Acts. These things have ALWAYS been in prophecy. They have always been prophesied. Hence, the word SPOKEN. Now if something began with the Lord and was confirmed in Acts 2. How can Paul say that the body of Christ was NEVER made known until revealed to him from Christ???

Let's compare Peter's message in Acts 2 and 3 with Paul's message and you WILL see they are not the same thing.

Acts 3.21

And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Acts 2.15-17

For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Peter says, this thing going on over here in the book of Acts is THAT which was SPOKEN BY THE PROPHET JOEL.

Now that those facts are established. Let's look at Paul. And you will know for sure that the Church in Acts 2 is NOT the body of Christ. The text won't allow it.

Eph 3.1-9

For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

If what Peter says in Acts 2 WAS MADE KNOWN from the beginning of the world. And Paul says what he preaches WAS NOT MADE KNOWN since the world began. Then they are NOT the same thing. You know good and well these verses have competing wisdom and say two different things. This is why rightly dividing the word of truth is crucial. It's not dividing truth from error. It's dividing truth from truth. Everything in the bible is truth. So if Peter contradicts Paul, you need to study to find out why.

Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church: Whereof I (Paul) am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Paul says his message is a mystery hid in God. Acts 2 cannot and never will be the body of Christ. The text won't allow it.



[video=youtube;s4bOSu8Vc5Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4bOSu8Vc5Q[/video]
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Post #49:

Agreed. The Old Testament saints were not at their time of death part of the body of Christ. They were not:

1. Washed in the blood of the Lamb
2. Made new creatures in Christ
3. Sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise
4. Born again
5. Made sinless
6. Spiritually circumcised from the flesh
7. Absent from the body, present with the Lord

If they were, they would have gone directly into the presence of the Lord upon death. The NT church started at Pentecost. Some were getting baptized by water. Some were getting hands laid upon them. Some simply listened to the preaching of the Apostles. Not until the Lord called out Paul did we get grounded in one way, through believing the gospel of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of our sins, no baptism, no laying on of hands, just belief. That is why the book of Acts is shaky ground to be used as a doctrinal book.

Proof text that there were some in Christ before Paul:

Romans 16:7, Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

There were people "in Christ" before Paul. The Lord used the Apostle Paul to clear up the way.
 
Grace777x70

Grace777x70

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#71
Nov 22, 2015
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#71
John146 said:
Post #49:

Agreed. The Old Testament saints were not at their time of death part of the body of Christ. They were not:

1. Washed in the blood of the Lamb
2. Made new creatures in Christ
3. Sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise
4. Born again
5. Made sinless
6. Spiritually circumcised from the flesh
7. Absent from the body, present with the Lord

If they were, they would have gone directly into the presence of the Lord upon death. The NT church started at Pentecost. Some were getting baptized by water. Some were getting hands laid upon them. Some simply listened to the preaching of the Apostles. Not until the Lord called out Paul did we get grounded in one way, through believing the gospel of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of our sins, no baptism, no laying on of hands, just belief. That is why the book of Acts is shaky ground to be used as a doctrinal book.

Proof text that there were some in Christ before Paul:

Romans 16:7, Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

There were people "in Christ" before Paul. The Lord used the Apostle Paul to clear up the way.
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I agree....the apostles were progressing in their understanding of the gospel. They had the basics down as far as believing in Christ's death and resurrection but they were growing in what all that means and they were still operating from a Jewish mindset based on their religion of Judaism that they came up in.

Paul is pivotal for the New Covenant church as he has been commissioned by the Lord Jesus Christ to "explain" the gospel in the context of what happened from the cross to the throne and how we too are included in Christ's death and resurrection and ascension.
 
phil36

phil36

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#72
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#72
Salvation has always been by faith. This was the driving force in Paul's writings in Romans and Galatians. We see he protevangelion in Genesis 3:15... Abraham was a man of faith (all nations would be blessed through Him (gentiles included). The gospel is not only in the NT but in the OT as well.

All the OT saints looked forward to the promised Messiah and suffering servant of Isaiah would believe this by faith, just as we look back and believe in the Messiah.

Here is something to ponder:

The catholic or universal Church which is invisible, consists of the whole number of the elect, that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one, under Christ the Head thereof; and is the spouse, the body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.(a)

(a) Eph.1:10, 22, 23; Eph. 5:23, 27, 32; Col.1:18. (​Westminster confession of Faith)


As mentioned by other posters above, the church universal began with the Fall.. Adam and Eve needed a saviour and we see the first Gospel message Gen 3:15. Since the Fall, Mankind can only be justified before God by faith.. therefore the universal church. It can be shown that Eve had faith in God's promise of a child (God's first gospel promise of the Messiah), and we certainly know Abel's offering was pleasing to God - by faith he was commended as righteous. cf Hebrews 11:4.

The universal (catholic just means universal) church includes all those of faith - past, present and future.
 
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Depleted

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#73
#73
Spurgeoncy said:
In Jude 1:14, Jude says that Enoch 'prophecied'. Therefore Enoch was a Prophet.

Therefore he was one of the founding fathers of the Church, and he predates Abraham of course.
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Ack. My question was unclear. lol

How do you know prophetic has something to do with the church?
 
D

Depleted

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#74
#74
peacefulbeliever said:
When was I born again? . . . when I believed and was sealed with the gift of holy spirit. The new birth was not available until Christ's death and resurrection wherein those that are members of the body of Christ now have the divine nature born within him via the gift of holy spirit. I can't find any scripture reference of an OT believer who was born again. In fact that language appears first in John 3 . . . to be born again is to be born of the Spirit, i.e. filled with the spirit, baptized in holy spirit . . . and the gift of holy spirit was not given until Christ was crucified. Did the OT believers have holy spirit? Sure, the holy spirit was with/upon them but not IN them.
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So, all those OT dudes and dudettes were doomed to hell? No mercy on them because the Spirit wasn't in them? If that is true, then who wrote the OT. After all, we're supposed to assume all of scripture was inspired/God breathed/by the Holy Spirit, (all the same thing), so if that's not true, we have some bigger problems with the OT more than no references.

(No references for raspberries either, but I believe in raspberries anyway.)
 
A

abcdef

Senior Member
#75
Mar 30, 2016
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#75
Spurgeoncy said:
There is a new thread in town, claiming that there are two Churches.

This is plain false teaching - "hyperdispensationalism" apparently.

The Church was actually started by God when he sat down to eat with Abraham...we are part of the same Church.
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This thread and others like it revolve the meaning of the word "church".

The Pentecost Kingdom, would be the Kingdom of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Those who obeyed the gospel call on Pentecost, received the "gift" of the Holy Spirit, Acts 2:28.

Those Israelites and others, who were before that time could not receive the gift and were not part of the Pentecost Kingdom, John the Baptist for example, Lk 7:28

That is the difference.

---

The people of the OT, were saved by faith, but held "captive" by sin until Jesus was resurrected Eph 4:8.

They are in heaven now, but not part of the Pentecost Kingdom.

---

The Kingdom of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit will have a special place there.

--

The body of Christ and the "church" (Pentecost Kingdom), are both the same.

They are different terms for the people who have the Gift of the Holy Spirit.
 
peacefulbeliever

peacefulbeliever

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#76
Feb 21, 2012
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#76
Depleted said:
So, all those OT dudes and dudettes were doomed to hell? No mercy on them because the Spirit wasn't in them? If that is true, then who wrote the OT. After all, we're supposed to assume all of scripture was inspired/God breathed/by the Holy Spirit, (all the same thing), so if that's not true, we have some bigger problems with the OT more than no references.

(No references for raspberries either, but I believe in raspberries anyway.)
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Wow . . . you really took that and ran with it!! I never said that OT believers were doomed to hell! I said that they had holy spirit with/upon them not born within them as we, the body of Christ, have.

John 7:38-40 He that believes on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it sees him not, neither knows him: but you know him; for he dwells with you, and shall be in you.
 
Grace777x70

Grace777x70

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#77
peacefulbeliever said:
Wow . . . you really took that and ran with it!! I never said that OT believers were doomed to hell! I said that they had holy spirit with/upon them not born within them as we, the body of Christ, have.

John 7:38-40 He that believes on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it sees him not, neither knows him: but you know him; for he dwells with you, and shall be in you.
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I agree...people in the OT were saved because they believed in what God said to them at the time.

God sees that faith and righteousness is counted towards them. That righteousness was fulfilled by Christ's work. Abraham is a picture of that.

Romans 4:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."



Abraham had no idea about a "messiah" nor even heard about that there would be one in the future. But yet God preached the gospel to Abraham. The gospel is the good news altho Abraham had no idea what all that meant.

Galatians 3:8 (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
 
peacefulbeliever

peacefulbeliever

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#78
Feb 21, 2012
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#78
Grace777x70 said:
I agree...people in the OT were saved because they believed in what God said to them at the time.

God sees that faith and righteousness is counted towards them. That righteousness was fulfilled by Christ's work. Abraham is a picture of that.

Romans 4:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

Abraham had no idea about a "messiah" nor even heard about that there would be one in the future. But yet God preached the gospel to Abraham. The gospel is the good news altho Abraham had no idea what all that meant.

Galatians 3:8 (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
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Thank you!

Also, in Galatians it says . . . But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Before faith came - we know that OT believers had faith because we read about it in Hebrews 11 but was it "faith of Jesus Christ"? Apparently there is a difference in being saved by the "faith of Jesus Christ" and faith being based upon the law. We also know that OT believers faith and righteousness was based upon how well they kept the commandments: And the Lord commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the Lord our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the Lord our God, as he hath commanded us.
 
R

RomansToPhilemon

Guest
#79
#79
John146 said:
Post #49:

Agreed. The Old Testament saints were not at their time of death part of the body of Christ. They were not:

1. Washed in the blood of the Lamb
2. Made new creatures in Christ
3. Sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise
4. Born again
5. Made sinless
6. Spiritually circumcised from the flesh
7. Absent from the body, present with the Lord

If they were, they would have gone directly into the presence of the Lord upon death. The NT church started at Pentecost. Some were getting baptized by water. Some were getting hands laid upon them. Some simply listened to the preaching of the Apostles. Not until the Lord called out Paul did we get grounded in one way, through believing the gospel of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of our sins, no baptism, no laying on of hands, just belief. That is why the book of Acts is shaky ground to be used as a doctrinal book.

Proof text that there were some in Christ before Paul:

Romans 16:7, Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

There were people "in Christ" before Paul. The Lord used the Apostle Paul to clear up the way.
Click to expand...
Isaiah 45.25
In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

Being in Christ is not exclusive to only Paul's mystery and the body of Christ. People saved back in Acts 2 were also in Christ. My points above still stand. And you are bypassing the elephant in the room. Which is that Paul states the body of Christ was a mystery. Since that is true, the people in Acts 2 cannot be when the body of Christ starts. They are part of the Little Flock, the believing remnant, who were looking for a kingdom on Earth.

Also, take note that Romans 16.7 says that they were his kinsmen. Who was Paul? He was a Jew. So him saying that these two were Jews gives even more evidence, but certainly not the only evidence, that they were saved under Peter's gospel. They were not members of the body of Christ.

I'll give an excerpt that goes in to better detail below from Justin Johnson if your interested.

Skeptics of the special revelation given to Paul are quick to point out that there were people “in Christ” before Paul. Out of the 78 times in the Bible the phrase “in Christ” shows up, Paul uses the phrase 75 times. It is clear that the phrase is distinctively Pauline.
Afterall, to Paul was revealed the mystery of God’s will that…

“in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him” – Ephesians 1:10
The all things in Christ consist of the prophesied earthly things, but also the heavenly things revealed as the mystery of Christ kept secret since the world began.

It is evident that God’s purpose has always been for all things to be in Christ.
So, when Paul describes Junia and Andronicus as being “in Christ before me”, this is seen as an admission that those before Paul taught the same thing as him. Yet, this would be an hasty conclusion since merely being in Christ is not the mystery of Christ kept secret since the world began (Rom 16:25). Both the prophets and the Lord in his ministry to Israel talked about being in him.
We can read in the prophets that Israel would be justified in the Lord:

“In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory. “ – Isa 45:25
Throughout the prophetic writings finding refuge in the Lord was a common theme. Being glad, rejoicing, and resting in the Lord were common admonitions.

That salvation was found in the Lord, and subsequently in the Lord Jesus Christ was no mystery.
Peter and the twelve, along with Adronicus and Junia, had to be in Christ according to God’s earthly prophetic purpose.
The phrase “In him”, found at the end of Ephesians 1:10, is the phrase used more often by John in his writings about being in Christ.

“ And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him.” – 1 John 3:24
Jesus taught his disciples to abide in him (John 15:4) as the true vine. If they did not abide, by keeping his commandments, they were cut off and cast forth.

Fortunately, your position in Christ is not that of a branch but a body member (Eph 5:30). God does not cut off body parts. You and I are in Christ according to the revelation of the mystery of Christ. Our position in Christ is without the commandments of the law, and is apart from Israel’s covenants.

Being in Christ was always part of God’s plan for heaven and earth. That Israel needed to be found in the Lord was nothing new. When Christ came, he taught they needed to be in Him, and that they would be one with the Father (John 17:21). Those in Christ according to prophecy were part of Israel’s kingdom covenants (John 15:5).

Those that are in Christ according to the mystery dispensation of Christ are part of a new creature, without Jew or Gentile (2 Cor 5:17, Col 3:10-11). Out of two, Jew and Gentile, God made one new man in Christ in this dispensation (Eph 2:15-16).
The difference between prophecy and mystery is not that one would be in Christ and the other would not. The dispensational difference is how we come to be in Christ. This has always been the difference.

The mystery of Christ explains how ungodly Gentiles could be in Christ without the law and access to the covenants. This mystery was not known by any of the prophets in time past until the Lord chose to reveal it to the apostle Paul.
In Christ Before Paul
Romans 16:3-16
 
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peacefulbeliever said:
Wow . . . you really took that and ran with it!! I never said that OT believers were doomed to hell! I said that they had holy spirit with/upon them not born within them as we, the body of Christ, have.

John 7:38-40 He that believes on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it sees him not, neither knows him: but you know him; for he dwells with you, and shall be in you.
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inspired. Breathed in. God breathed in his words. Breathe = spirit. Thus,"inspired."
 
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