Explanation For Present Tense Desscription Of Eden

[phil36]

1. You automatically assume that the past tense is the right one. So far, almost every translation has the present tense.

2. Even if the past tense is the right one, I am not sure what would be the point of such description.

Hi Trofimus,

I purposely never mentioned the use of tense. I was referring to the use of geographical locations. It certainly is not a tenable position to say that Genesis 2 were written in the present tense or even mean't to give that impression.(meaning from the writers perspective and time in history).

The point is this, the writer is giving geographical locations that his audience would understand. This does not mean that these locations as geographical/political nations existed in the creation, but rather the land area did!

All of creation was past tense, even to the writer of Genesis.

The fact is you cannot seem to fit evolution into genesis. But I have noticed Trofimus that you don't hold much confidence in the reliability of scripture as a whole anyhow.

 

[MarcR]

I do not know Hebrew, but only ESV and one paraphrase use the past tense as you did:

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Septuagint:
And the name of the second river is Geon, this it is which encircles the whole land of Ethiopia.

New International Version
The name of the second river is the Gihon; it winds through the entire land of Cush.

New Living Translation
The second branch, called the Gihon, flowed around the entire land of Cush.

English Standard Version
The name of the second river is the Gihon. It is the one that flowed around the whole land of Cush.

New American Standard Bible
The name of the second river is Gihon; it flows around the whole land of Cush.

King James Bible
And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The name of the second river is Gihon, which flows through the entire land of Cush.

International Standard Version
The name of the second river is Gihon— it winds through the entire land of Cush.

NET Bible
The name of the second river is Gihon; it runs through the entire land of Cush.

New Heart English Bible
The name of the second river is Gihon; it goes around the whole land of Cush.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
The name of the second river is Gihon. This is the one that winds throughout Sudan.

JPS Tanakh 1917
And the name of the second river is Gihon; the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Cush.

New American Standard 1977
And the name of the second river is Gihon; it flows around the whole land of Cush.

Jubilee Bible 2000
And the name of the second river is Gihon; this is the same that compasses the whole land of Ethiopia.

King James 2000 Bible
And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that encompasses the whole land of Cush.

American King James Version
And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasses the whole land of Ethiopia.

American Standard Version
And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Cush.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And the name of the second river is Gehon: the same is it that compasseth all the land of Ethiopia

Darby Bible Translation
And the name of the second river is Gihon: that is it which surrounds the whole land of Cush.

English Revised Version
And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Cush.

Webster's Bible Translation
And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same that compasseth the whole land of Cush.

World English Bible
The name of the second river is Gihon: the same river that flows through the whole land of Cush.

Young's Literal Translation
and the name of the second river is Gibon, it is that which is surrounding the whole land of Cush;

The descriptions of the four divisions are in present tense as well they should be since 3 of the four are still definitely in existence. The primary river before it divided is in the Present Active Participle in Hebrew because the connection Of the Tigris (Hiddekel) the Euphrates, with the Nile (Gihon) no longer exists. This is explained by the fact that the flood in the time of Noah made many geo-physical changes

 

[Enow]

As always, as it should be for anyone in seeing the truth and for answers, trofimus, go before that throne of grace for help.

I can't help you any more than any one else can. only God can help you see the truth in His words.

 

[vic1980]

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

I am enjoying reading what everyone has shared ,please continue this thread

 

[Bladerunner]

Other than evidence that the evolution theory is not true when those landmarks are still around today? Granted, the Garden of Eden seems to be elusive, but an angel is guarding the tree of life there. Maybe that angel is hiding that garden of Eden, thus guarding the tree of life as well? God spoke, and thus nobody is going to find it.

The Garden of Eden could be there and we not see it.... Nachmanides told us there would be a possible 10 dimensions in the Bible which would help explain many things especially the placement of EDEN.

 

[posthuman]

I am not sure what you mean by existence outside of our physical reality. Was Assyria or Ethiopia also in "non-physical" reality?

All i know is that the Bible doesn't seem to say Eden is no more, and it is described as though a literal place. It says it is inaccessible, for as long as He requires the Cherubim and the Flaming Sword to stand in the way to it.

and i know that we as humans seem to be able to access every part of the surface of the earth, a distance below the surface if we go to the trouble, and any part of the atmosphere. we can go throughout the solar system and beyond, though it may take great lengths of time to go there, and we can look into things down to Planck scale. this rules out all those places in our physical reality as present locations of Eden, because it would otherwise contradict the inaccessibility. we can access Assyria and Ethiopia, but they're not said to be in the garden, are they?

 

[trofimus]

OK, so far, the idea that Genesis mixes physical and spiritual realities, as some of you proposed, seems to be the most probable to me.

That could apply also to other places.

 

[trofimus]

The fact is you cannot seem to fit evolution into genesis. But I have noticed Trofimus that you don't hold much confidence in the reliability of scripture as a whole anyhow.

I am not sure what evolution has to do with it. These events are clearly in modern times of our kind. So how animals or humans got to this point is not important for the issue of Eden mentioned together with Assyria or Ethiopia.

I do not believe that every word in your or mine Bible is preserved or automatically dictated by God, yes.

 

[trofimus]

The descriptions of the four divisions are in present tense as well they should be since 3 of the four are still definitely in existence. The primary river before it divided is in the Present Active Participle in Hebrew because the connection Of the Tigris (Hiddekel) the Euphrates, with the Nile (Gihon) no longer exists. This is explained by the fact that the flood in the time of Noah made many geo-physical changes

Genesis was written after the flood. So flood could not change anything about what the author knew about the geography of his time. If he mentions 4 rivers, there were 4 rivers after the flood.

 

[Hizikyah]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Isaiah 41:4-5, “Who has performed and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? ‘I, [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], am the first, and with the last I am He.”[/FONT]

 

[stillness]

Some, including me, believe we are the garden of God, not denying the big picture of the rivers but that these rivers also represent life through the limbs of His Body. The tree of Life "Christ in you" the tree of knowledge of good and evil, also in the center of the garden, the mind of the flesh, the fruit: the sin nature or ego, living for ourselves. Man chose to live in the flesh separate from God.

 

[phil36]

"And a river proceeds out of Edem to water the garden, thence it divides itself into four heads.

The name of the one, Phisom, this it is which encircles the whole land of Evilat, where there is gold. And the gold of that land is good, there also is carbuncle and emerald.

And the name of the second river is Geon, this it is which encircles the whole land of Ethiopia.

And the third river is Tigris, this is that which flows forth over against the Assyrians.

And the fourth river is Euphrates."

Gen 2

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1. The description is in a present tense (Eden still existed in the time of description).
2. The description mentions Assyria
3. The description mentions the land of Evilat and its gold quality
4. The description mentions the land of Ethiopia

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Any plausible explanation how is this possible?

Hi trofimus,


It's quite simple..The writer of Genesis 2 just used modern names for geographical area, that is modern to his historical timeframe.

A simple example is 'Cush' we know that region as Ethiopia or if kingdom of kush, Sudan.
It's not the problem you seem to be making it out to be.

A simple reading shows that the writer viewed the creation account in the past from his historical time, and not present. Remember, the people where heading to a new 'eden' like land not eden itself.

So the supposed 4 problems that you present are not problems at all!

Just out of interest what translation are you using for the above?

 

[stillness]

I believe there is meaning to present tense: at the speed of light there is no time, that would describe eternity, "God is light" "God dwells in unapproachable light that no man can approach to." The creation reveals Him. "To be absent from the body is to be present with God." Doesn't necessarily mean in the new Jerusalem unless you have attained the Resurrection. It could even be in hell. "If I make my bed in hell, there You are." There is that present tense again.

 

[trofimus]

Just out of interest what translation are you using for the above?

I used Brenton´s translation of Septuagint.

 

[Zmouth]

"And a river proceeds out of Edem to water the garden, thence it divides itself into four heads.

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Any plausible explanation how is this possible?

If not mistaken, you hold the origin of water upon the earth originated from an external source, like a meteor or comet, and not from earth itself right?

Since it would implausible to attempt to reconcile the river which proceeds out of Eden with an external source, seeing that waters that covered the face of the surface of this planet in Genesis 1:2 originated from within during it formation.

"Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs?..." James 3:12

Seeing that 70% of this planet's surface consists of salt water, and the dry ground called Earth is above sea level, the fresh water present above sea level would have been the result of evaporation/condensation of salt water.

"...so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh" James 3:12

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[trofimus]

If not mistaken, you hold the origin of water upon the earth originated from an external source, like a meteor or comet, and not from earth itself right?

Since it would implausible to attempt to reconcile the river which proceeds out of Eden with an external source, seeing that waters that covered the face of the surface of this planet in Genesis 1:2 originated from within during it formation.

"Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs?..." James 3:12

Seeing that 70% of this planet's surface consists of salt water, and the dry ground called Earth is above sea level, the fresh water present above sea level would have been the result of evaporation/condensation of salt water.

"...so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh" James 3:12

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I have no idea what you want to say...

 

[Zmouth]

I have no idea what you want to say...

If not mistaken, you hold the origin of water upon the earth originated from an external source, like a meteor or comet, and not from earth itself right?

That is why I said

it would implausible to attempt to reconcile the river which proceeds out of Eden with an external source

Why don't you see what you come up with as an answer to which tank would fill up first....

 

[posthuman]

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you think Eden is under Antarctica?

which way is east from the south pole?

*not too easily accessible, i'll give you that. ice cap = flaming sword? cherubim? i dunno dude.

 

[trofimus]

That is why I said



Why don't you see what you come up with as an answer to which tank would fill up first....

I was not asking about the source of Earth´s waters.

But why is the Eden described in a present tense (might be Adam) and with Assyria and Ethiopia mentioned (might be Moses).

I wonder which human author could both see Eden as present and to know Assyria, too. And the flow of 4 rivers.

 

[dcontroversal]

The word Eden means paradise and the garden was planted EASTWARD IN EDEN....it was not the garden of EDEN....but rather the garden EASTWARD in EDEN.....

Since this was overlooked I WILL state it again....the word OF is not applied to EDEN

EDEN = PARADISE....the WHOLE world WAS PARADISE and the GARDEN was PLANTED EASTWARD in PARADISE......

New Living Translation
Then the LORD God planted a garden in Eden in the east, and there he placed the man he had made.

English Standard Version
And the LORD God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed.

New American Standard Bible
The LORD God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed.

King James Bible
And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The LORD God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and there He placed the man He had formed.

International Standard Version
The LORD God planted a garden in Eden, toward the east, where he placed the man whom he had formed.