Explanation For Present Tense Desscription Of Eden

[Enow]

So do you believe Jesus's words about Moses's writings?

John 5:[SUP]39 [/SUP]Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.[SUP]40 [/SUP]And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life....[SUP]46 [/SUP]For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.[SUP] 47 [/SUP]But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Not sure what you wanted to say. Any answer to the OP?

Bible is inerrant in its message about God and Christ.

Not in every word used, in every word translated etc. If you do not know what I am talking about, compare for example synoptic gospels. You will see many differences, but still the same spiritual message.

Stick with the KJV and ask the Lord for the answers you seek without wearing the evolution theory's bifocals, because as much as you claim the scripture as truth about God and Christ, yet you do not heed Christ's own words as validation of Moses' writings as scripture; meaning you take all of Genesis as the truth.

Everybody... pray for our brother, trofimus, that the Lord will help Him to apply the truths in the scripture that he has accepted about God and Christ to accept the rest of scripture as truth as well.

 

[trofimus]

Hi Trofimus,

There is no 'apparent' contradiction. You are assuming that Matthew, Mark and Luke record the whole conversation! It may well have been God speaking to His son first and then making the proclamation to John and the other witness'.

Do you see the mistake you make Trofimus. This can be seen in other texts where one book will give more detail. For example the writing above jesus head on the cross would be another example.

It tends to be liberals and non -believers (informed atheists) who use these sort of arguments to try and disprove scripture.

There are no contradiction in Scripture.

Your explanation is a common one between literalists.

Whenever we have different accounts about some event, we will say that the event happened as many times as many variations we have.

Which is logically possible, but quite obviously not a good way to explain things....

 

[trofimus]

So do you believe Jesus's words about Moses's writings?

John 5:[SUP]39 [/SUP]Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.[SUP]40 [/SUP]And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life....[SUP]46 [/SUP]For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.[SUP] 47 [/SUP]But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?





Stick with the KJV and ask the Lord for the answers you seek without wearing the evolution theory's bifocals, because as much as you claim the scripture as truth about God and Christ, yet you do not heed Christ's own words as validation of Moses' writings as scripture; meaning you take all of Genesis as the truth.

I will not use the KJV.

 

[Enow]

I will not use the KJV.

All I can say is whatever you are using, if it changes Jesus words from what I have shared with you as validating Moses' writing as true in, then you can understand why I am relying only on the KJV.

John 5:[SUP]39 [/SUP]Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.[SUP]40 [/SUP]And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life....[SUP]46 [/SUP]For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.[SUP] 47 [/SUP]But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

I can by the scripture say that you do not believe Jesus's words because you do not believe Moses's words on Genesis.

 

[trofimus]

All I can say is whatever you are using, if it changes Jesus words from what I have shared with you as validating Moses' writing as true in, then you can understand why I am relying only on the KJV.

John 5:[SUP]39 [/SUP]Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.[SUP]40 [/SUP]And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life....[SUP]46 [/SUP]For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.[SUP] 47 [/SUP]But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

I can by the scripture say that you do not believe Jesus's words because you do not believe Moses's words on Genesis.

You can rely on whatever you want, for me, the KJV is a very bad Bible to use because of various reasons which are not related to this thread.

 

[phil36]

Its not on me or on you to decide when Moses lived or when was Genesis written. We do not have enough info about that so I am leaving it to scholars who specialize in this area.

If you think it can change anything about my OP, show me what exactly.

---

It is also very apparent that so called 5 books of Moses are not written by Moses only, but there are other later additions by various authors. So the datation of the book does not corresponds fully with the datation of Moses.

Hi Trofimus,

Now you are changing your tune, especially since your dating cannot stand regarding Moses, this throws light on how you handle anything else. You tell us Moses was in 900BC now you say you don't actually know!!!

About your OP i have answered already, there is no problem with the text. Moses originally wrote it.

Now you are changing subjects yet again.. I was referring to the book of Genesis not the whole Pentateuch. We know there are additions to what Moses had written. The last chapter of Deuteronomy, which describes Moses death, was not written by Moses. The original books where the books written as a whole by Moses. Again you are confusing 2 issues here. the original writing date and transmission. Jesus and the Apostles affirm this.

 

[trofimus]

Hi Trofimus,

Now you are changing your tune, especially since your dating cannot stand regarding Moses, this throws light on how you handle anything else. You tell us Moses was in 900BC now you say you don't actually know!!!

About your OP i have answered already, there is no problem with the text. Moses originally wrote it.

Now you are changing subjects yet again.. I was referring to the book of Genesis not the whole Pentateuch. We know there are additions to what Moses had written. The last chapter of Deuteronomy, which describes Moses death, was not written by Moses. The original books where the books written as a whole by Moses. Again you are confusing 2 issues here. the original writing date and transmission. Jesus and the Apostles affirm this.

1. I am changing "tune", because it is not related to my question in any way

2. I do not care, actually, if Moses lived in 900 BC or 1300 BC or 1500 BC

Can you respect that and answer my OP question instead?

 

[Enow]

You can rely on whatever you want, for me, the KJV is a very bad Bible to use because of various reasons which are not related to this thread.

Just goes to show why you are asking questions about something that only Jesus can help you see in His words, but oh wait. You doubt scripture and so you are not going to see it coming from anyone else.

Have you ever considered that Moses was writing for the readers of the nation of Israel to know where presently the approximate location of the garden was formerly located?

 

[trofimus]

Have you ever considered that Moses was writing for the readers of the nation of Israel to know where presently the approximate location of the garden was formerly located?

If you would read the thread, it was already mentioned and I asked where are those 4 rivers Moses wrote about.

Because there is no river that divides into 4 from which two are Euphrates and Tigris.

 

[phil36]

1. I am changing "tune", because it is not related to my question in any way

2. I do not care, actually, if Moses lived in 900 BC or 1300 BC or 1500 BC

Can you respect that and answer my OP question instead?

Hi Trofimus,

It was you who brought up Moses was around 900 BC. You do not need to get angry when your fallacy has been pointed out.

As I have said I have already answered your OP. Your OP, is wrong in its conclusion and sentiment.

 

[trofimus]

Hi Trofimus,

It was you who brought up Moses was around 900 BC. You do not need to get angry when your fallacy has been pointed out.

As I have said I have already answered your OP. Your OP, is wrong in its conclusion and sentiment.

I am not angry, I just do not wish to dive into absolutely different area. With enow, about the KJV, with you, about when Moses lived.
OK, so Moses lived in the year you like, all good, I have no problem with that.

And now, back to the topic.

 

[phil36]

I am not angry, I just do not wish to dive into absolutely different area. With enow, about the KJV, with you, about when Moses lived.
OK, so Moses lived in the year you like, all good, I have no problem with that.

And now, back to the topic.

Hi Trofimus,

No need to be facetious, Its not the years I like, it is the overall consensus of Scholars. Anyhow. Back tto the OP.

How do you understand any passage in Scripture. Do you seclude it, and just look at it on its own or do you view within the whole narrative passage then the whole chapter and then within the context of the book? Yes of course.

So the question really is, did the writer of Genesis 2 write the chapter as being in the past? YES!

The geographical details I have already explained. And do not suppose that this was a present activity in the writers time.

 

[trofimus]

So the question really is, did the writer of Genesis 2 write the chapter as being in the past? YES!

Where do you read that it is past?

BTW, just now I am reading on wiki that Ethiopia was formed cca in 980 BC. So I do not know how Moses could mention it before it existed (if we accept your datation of Moses).

 

[phil36]

Hi Trofimus,


It is in the past as to the time reference of the writer. Anyhow, lets ask you a question:

What is your whole point of the OP? you must have some reason to state the present tense (in the writing form- if indeed it all is??) ?

In other words what point do you think it makes if it is ALL written in present tense?

 

[phil36]

Where do you read that it is past?

BTW, just now I am reading on wiki that Ethiopia was formed cca in 980 BC. So I do not know how Moses could mention it before it existed (if we accept your datation of Moses).

Ahh Again, Trofimus, you make a categorical mistake. Was Moses referring to Ethiopia (Cush) as a sovereign or political entity. I think not! it is a geographical area.. Like Havilah, no one knows where exactly that is. Was the area known as cush only made when someone decided to have a geopolitical grouping?

So again I think you have failed to prove your point.

 

[trofimus]

Ahh Again, Trofimus, you make a categorical mistake. Was Moses referring to Ethiopia (Cush) as a sovereign or political entity. I think not! it is a geographical area.. Like Havilah, no one knows where exactly that is. Was the area known as cush only made when someone decided to have a geopolitical grouping?

So again I think you have failed to prove your point.

That you think something or do not think something does not prove anybody right or wrong, we are just discussing topics, we both are just laymen.

 

[Enow]

If you would read the thread, it was already mentioned and I asked where are those 4 rivers Moses wrote about.

Because there is no river that divides into 4 from which two are Euphrates and Tigris.

Perhaps, not any more. Even the Euphrates & the Tigris is drying up now.

Tigris and Euphrates Rivers are Drying Up - End Times Truth

Maybe if you figure out the location of the first two rivers, where it had been, you might figure out where they had all interconnected from whence the garden was located. But then again, it did not say how long it was before it had parted into four rivers after the garden.

Genesis 2:[SUP]10 [/SUP]And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold; 12And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.

Maybe everybody is looking in the wrong place for the garden and that it is near Turkey where the Tigris might have joined with the other 3 rivers at one time? It could be that the first 2 rivers were renamed.

 

[trofimus]

Hi Trofimus,


It is in the past as to the time reference of the writer. Anyhow, lets ask you a question:

What is your whole point of the OP? you must have some reason to state the present tense (in the writing form- if indeed it all is??) ?

In other words what point do you think it makes if it is ALL written in present tense?

I am not sure if I understand your question. Genesis 2 is written in a preset tense.

 

[phil36]

I am not sure if I understand your question. Genesis 2 is written in a preset tense.

And if you think that is so what do you think that tells us ?

You must think it is significant if you started an OP on it.

 

[trofimus]

Perhaps, not any more. Even the Euphrates & the Tigris is drying up now.

Tigris and Euphrates Rivers are Drying Up - End Times Truth

Maybe if you figure out the location of the first two rivers, where it had been, you might figure out where they had all interconnected from whence the garden was located. But then again, it did not say how long it was before it had parted into four rivers after the garden.

Genesis 2:[SUP]10 [/SUP]And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold; 12And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.

Maybe everybody is looking in the wrong place for the garden and that it is near Turkey where the Tigris might have joined with the other 3 rivers at one time? It could be that the first 2 rivers were renamed.

Tigris and Euphrat on your map do not have any common source. So they do not correspond to the Genesis description at all.

You say that it just changed. Is there any evidence of such huge change?

And even if some river dries up, there is still detectable river bad, at least on satellite maps. If it went around all Ethiopia, it had to be a large river (Ethiopia is below Egypt).