Explanation For Present Tense Desscription Of Eden

trofimus · Nov 18, 2017

"Traditionally, scholars favored deriving the name "Eden" from the Akkadian edinnu, derived from a Sumerian word edin meaning "plain" or "steppe". Eden is now believed to be more closely related to an Aramaic root word meaning "fruitful, well-watered." Another interpretation associates the name "Eden" with a Hebrew word for "pleasure"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_of_Eden

"And God planted a garden (paradise) in Edem"
Καὶ ἐφύτευσεν ὁ Θεὸς παράδεισον ἐν ᾿Εδὲμ
Gen 2:8

The paradise was placed in the area/land named Eden/Edem, in the eastern part. What "Eden" means is not so important... or what do you think it would change?

dcontroversal · Nov 18, 2017

Point being....we cannot alleviate the following facts...

a. The whole world would have been paradise before the curse went over the whole earth
b. The garden was planted eastward in EDEN

Notice your first statement....

"And a river proceeds out of Eden to water the garden, thence it divides itself into four heads.

What three things can we surmise...

a. The river proceeds out of EDEN
b. The river which comes out of EDEN WATERS the garden planted by GOD
c. THENCE it divides AFTER IT comes out of EDEN and waters the garden.

I guess the point is....The garden is not EDEN, but was planted IN EDEN and the river (singular) comes out of EDEN into the GARDEN, thru the GARDEN and then DIVIDES into the 4 listed...

SO, my question or comment would be....EDEN is something other than the garden and if this is the case, maybe the word is generically applied, is not indicative of the garden itself which possibly DID NOT EXIST when Genesis 2 is written and the use of EDEN generically supports your application of the present context usage of the word.

The fact that an angel is sent to guard the tree from ADAM and EVE seems to indicate continuance so maybe this plays into the spiritual aspect of the tree....the garden needed water so is this symbolic of SPIRIT or literal water....??

Yet the water seems literal as well as it is divided into 4 rivers.....this leads to all sorts of questions hey.

Zmouth · Nov 18, 2017

trofimus said:

The LORD is the author.

(Why do you think that man taught himself how to read and write the spoken word when man cannot learn how to read and write without a book and a teacher.)

When the book was handled to Jesus he at least said, I am not learned. [See Isa 29:12]Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

"And God called the dry land Earth;" Genesis 1:10 "...the waters called he Seas:"

"And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it." Genesis 2:15

Enow · Nov 18, 2017

trofimus said:

Is this you?

trofimus said:

So do you believe Jesus's words about Moses's writings?

John 5:[SUP]39 [/SUP]Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.[SUP]40 [/SUP]And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life....[SUP]46 [/SUP]For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.[SUP] 47 [/SUP]But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/154696-jesus-before-his-incarnation.html

Since Jesus verified Moses writings as scripture in believing His words, can you see now by Him that the Genesis account is true? After all, Jesus had referred to Noah's flood as a warning to even now present day believers to beware and be ready for what is coming on the earth when the Son of Man comes. Luke 17:26-37

trofimus · Nov 18, 2017

dcontroversal said:

Point being....we cannot alleviate the following facts...

a. The whole world would have been paradise before the curse went over the whole earth
b. The garden was planted eastward in EDEN

Notice your first statement....

"And a river proceeds out of Eden to water the garden, thence it divides itself into four heads.

What three things can we surmise...

a. The river proceeds out of EDEN
b. The river which comes out of EDEN WATERS the garden planted by GOD
c. THENCE it divides AFTER IT comes out of EDEN and waters the garden.

I guess the point is....The garden is not EDEN, but was planted IN EDEN and the river (singular) comes out of EDEN into the GARDEN, thru the GARDEN and then DIVIDES into the 4 listed...

SO, my question or comment would be....EDEN is something other than the garden and if this is the case, maybe the word is generically applied, is not indicative of the garden itself which possibly DID NOT EXIST when Genesis 2 is written and the use of EDEN generically supports your application of the present context usage of the word.

The fact that an angel is sent to guard the tree from ADAM and EVE seems to indicate continuance so maybe this plays into the spiritual aspect of the tree....the garden needed water so is this symbolic of SPIRIT or literal water....??

Yet the water seems literal as well as it is divided into 4 rivers.....this leads to all sorts of questions hey.

If I understand you right, you are saying that Eden and 4 rivers existed in the time of Moses and he only noted where the paradise was located.

The problem is, where are those 4 rivers, there are only 2 on the map. If they existed in the time of Moses (cca 900 BC), they should be known also today, at least as dried river beds.

trofimus · Nov 18, 2017

Enow said:

Is this you?

So do you believe Jesus's words about Moses's writings?

John 5:[SUP]39 [/SUP]Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.[SUP]40 [/SUP]And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life....[SUP]46 [/SUP]For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.[SUP] 47 [/SUP]But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/154696-jesus-before-his-incarnation.html

Since Jesus verified Moses writings as scripture in believing His words, can you see now by Him that the Genesis account is true? After all, Jesus had referred to Noah's flood as a warning to even now present day believers to beware and be ready for what is coming on the earth when the Son of Man comes. Luke 17:26-37

Not sure what you wanted to say. Any answer to the OP?

dcontroversal · Nov 18, 2017

trofimus said:

I think you have your dates wrong......David ruled in around 940 B.C after Saul which ruled 40 years and this is after the period of the judges (330 years) and the invasion led by Joshua and the conquering of the land after the death of Moses......MOSES was around circa 1450 B.C. not 900 B.C......

As far as your question.....the world has seen numerous geological changes....for example....the whole northern third of Africa is now desert....there is overwhelming evidence that at one time it was green with lakes, rivers, streams etc.....the same is true with what you are discussing....and the one thing that gets me is the fact that the river (singular) flowed thru the GARDEN before is was divided into the 4 rivers mentioned.....so to me....if the rivers flow into the Persian gulf....it would make sense that the Garden was further North than what most people place it.....does that make sense?

abcdef · Nov 18, 2017

dcontroversal said:

And after the flood, this is why it will difficult to find evidence of Eden.

The geologic changes that would have to happen for the flood to take place would have been huge.

How far would the ark drifted each day? 20 mi?

10 mi x 150 = 1500 mi

20 x 150 days = 3000 mi.

=========

I think that Moses may have had some help.

It has been said, that Noah brought with him on the ark, many books and records.

The books were duplicated and stored in safe places.

But the books were lost, due to different armies invading and burning.

It is thought, that the books were all copied and stored in the libraries of the 7 cities of Alexandria.

Then the last copies were burned during the Roman Empire when the great library of Alexandria Egypt burned.

Moses may have had access to these books which helped him identify the location of the rivers and Eden.

trofimus · Nov 18, 2017

abcdef said:

And after the flood, this is why it will difficult to find evidence of Eden.

The geologic changes that would have to happen for the flood to take place would have been huge.

How far would the ark drifted each day? 20 mi?

10 mi x 150 = 1500 mi

20 x 150 days = 3000 mi.

=========

I think that Moses may have had some help.

It has been said, that Noah brought with him on the ark, many books and records.

The books were duplicated and stored in safe places.

But the books were lost, due to different armies invading and burning.

It is thought, that the books were all copied and stored in the libraries of the 7 cities of Alexandria.

Then the last copies were burned during the Roman Empire when the great library of Alexandria Egypt burned.

Moses may have had access to these books which helped him identify the location of the rivers and Eden.

I am afraid this is all a pure fantasy.

trofimus · Nov 18, 2017

dcontroversal said:

I think you have your dates wrong......David ruled in around 940 B.C after Saul which ruled 40 years and this is after the period of the judges (330 years) and the invasion led by Joshua and the conquering of the land after the death of Moses......MOSES was around circa 1450 B.C. not 900 B.C......

As far as your question.....the world has seen numerous geological changes....for example....the whole northern third of Africa is now desert....there is overwhelming evidence that at one time it was green with lakes, rivers, streams etc.....the same is true with what you are discussing....and the one thing that gets me is the fact that the river (singular) flowed thru the GARDEN before is was divided into the 4 rivers mentioned.....so to me....if the rivers flow into the Persian gulf....it would make sense that the Garden was further North than what most people place it.....does that make sense?

It would make sense, I just do not know how to verify it.

dcontroversal · Nov 18, 2017

abcdef said:

And after the flood, this is why it will difficult to find evidence of Eden.

The geologic changes that would have to happen for the flood to take place would have been huge.

How far would the ark drifted each day? 20 mi?

10 mi x 150 = 1500 mi

20 x 150 days = 3000 mi.

=========

I think that Moses may have had some help.

It has been said, that Noah brought with him on the ark, many books and records.

The books were duplicated and stored in safe places.

But the books were lost, due to different armies invading and burning.

It is thought, that the books were all copied and stored in the libraries of the 7 cities of Alexandria.

Then the last copies were burned during the Roman Empire when the great library of Alexandria Egypt burned.

Moses may have had access to these books which helped him identify the location of the rivers and Eden.

Or he was just inspired to write what was written.....

Bladerunner · Nov 18, 2017

trofimus said:

My friend.... The original Manuscripts were inerrant. The versions we have to day (KJV) not the NKJV) do have errors that are grammatical through both translation and transliteration. While the errors are minor in nature, The KJV has been around for 300+ years and most of the errors within it are well know and can be taken into account for.

I might add, The Alexander codex is very errant and this is where most if not all (exception NKJV) of the othr version came from. Yes, most of them are very corrupt and some are not.

As on scholar put it one day when he was asked about what He thought of the NIV version of the Bible...This Bible has gained popularity throughout the World and I see it as becoming the Standard for All the Evangelical CHurches.

Back to the story: This scholar told the questioner that it was not what was wrong with the NIV version that should be the Question but rather DID the PEOPLE that READ IT really CARE.

I believe in the sovereignty of God and that He is in control 100%. Gobal Warming is a BIG LIE? Man's puny attempts at destroying or repairing what GOD made is ludicrous. Therefore, I believe that in the KJV Not because of the ability of Man to copy and recopy, translate and transliterate without error but rather because God tells us in HIS BOOK, (JOHN1:1) "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

I believe in HIM and HIS WORD 100% and like the Apostles who had their pen hands lead by GOD when they first wrote it down, God would guide all future copies to be of equal quality.

trofimus · Nov 18, 2017

Bladerunner said:

My friend.... The original Manuscripts were inerrant. The versions we have to day (KJV) not the NKJV) do have errors that are grammatical through both translation and transliteration. While the errors are minor in nature, The KJV has been around for 300+ years and most of the errors within it are well know and can be taken into account for.

I might add, The Alexander codex is very errant and this is where most if not all (exception NKJV) of the othr version came from. Yes, most of them are very corrupt and some are not.

As on scholar put it one day when he was asked about what He thought of the NIV version of the Bible...This Bible has gained popularity throughout the World and I see it as becoming the Standard for All the Evangelical CHurches.

Back to the story: This scholar told the questioner that it was not what was wrong with the NIV version that should be the Question but rather DID the PEOPLE that READ IT really CARE.

I believe in the sovereignty of God and that He is in control 100%. Gobal Warming is a BIG LIE? Man's puny attempts at destroying or repairing what GOD made is ludicrous. Therefore, I believe that in the KJV Not because of the ability of Man to copy and recopy, translate and transliterate without error but rather because God tells us in HIS BOOK, (JOHN1:1) "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

I believe in HIM and HIS WORD 100% and like the Apostles who had their pen hands lead by GOD when they first wrote it down, God would guide all future copies to be of equal quality.

Bible is inerrant in its message about God and Christ.

Not in every word used, in every word translated etc. If you do not know what I am talking about, compare for example synoptic gospels. You will see many differences, but still the same spiritual message.

phil36 · Nov 18, 2017

trofimus said:

Hi Trofimus,

All of scripture is inerrant, all of it teaches us something about God. If we take your view then we have serious problems in reliability.

trofimus · Nov 18, 2017

phil36 said:

As I said, synoptic gospels are a good example.

One gospel says that voice from heaven said "this is my beloved son".
Another gospel says that voice from heaven said "you are my beloved son".

Apparent contradiction in form (in what exactly was said), but no contradiction in message (that Jesus is God´s beloved son).

phil36 · Nov 18, 2017

trofimus said:

This is an impossible time for Moses. How did you come to that date?

trofimus · Nov 18, 2017

phil36 said:

There is quite a consensus that Genesis was written in 900 BC, as the oldest possible date.

So if we believe that Moses is the author... he could not live in 1500 BC, right?

---

But this is not important for this thread.

phil36 · Nov 18, 2017

trofimus said:

Hi Trofimus,

You have made a classic categorical mistake. You are confusing the writing of Genesis with the date and time Moses lived. In fact there is no widespread consensus for 900 bc for the writing of Genesis.

Since Moses did indeed write Genesis, then Genesis could not have been first formulated in 900 BC. Because it is impossible for Moses to have been alive in 900BC. The dates for Moses vary from 1550 BC to 1250 BC (app).

It is very important to the thread because it shows how you come to your conclusions. Not based on any fact.

trofimus · Nov 18, 2017

phil36 said:

Its not on me or on you to decide when Moses lived or when was Genesis written. We do not have enough info about that so I am leaving it to scholars who specialize in this area.

If you think it can change anything about my OP, show me what exactly.

---

It is also very apparent that so called 5 books of Moses are not written by Moses only, but there are other later additions by various authors. So the datation of the book does not corresponds fully with the datation of Moses.

phil36 · Nov 18, 2017

trofimus said:

Hi Trofimus,

There is no 'apparent' contradiction. You are assuming that Matthew, Mark and Luke record the whole conversation! It may well have been God speaking to His son first and then making the proclamation to John and the other witness'.

Do you see the mistake you make Trofimus. This can be seen in other texts where one book will give more detail. For example the writing above jesus head on the cross would be another example.

It tends to be liberals and non -believers (informed atheists) who use these sort of arguments to try and disprove scripture.

There are no contradiction in Scripture.

Explanation For Present Tense Desscription Of Eden

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