faith alone?

[Cassian]

Do you base your belief off of what God tells us through His Word, the Bible, or do you base your belief off what your "church" teaches you?

What is the difference? Christ is the Church, He is Head over His own Body. It was Christ/the Holy Spirit that gave all revelation, including the meaning, so yes, I believe what Christ/the Church teaches.

What I don't believe is all the man made interpretations from a text.

 

[newbirth]

I do.

what about question 2-5

if you do then you would know that question 2-5 has nothing to do with being saved by grace through faith...but I will answer them...

2. Do you believe human can produce good deed by itself?

yes...
Acts 10 King James Version (KJV)
10 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.

3. Who get credit for the good deed? vine or branch?

Did not God credit him for his good deeds...

4. You sound like catholic brother, you emphasize on water baptism. If a man accept the Lord and die before even going water baptism or bear fruit, is he save?

The scripture says..repent and be baptised for the remission of sins ...before the catholic church existed...I don't know what part of scripture says ..."If a man accept the Lord"....but I know it says ..

John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

5. Do you think the catholic high rank officer who is i believe the group that decide church catechism rape and kill a girl, is still doing work and go to heaven because they obey to be water baptism? Do you believe they water baptism save them from sin?

What is the role of water baptism in this group of leader ?

this question is unfair to me ...what I think or believe cannot alter the facts...but only fuel propaganda....you have already made your decision regarding their fate....I have no facts on the matter...But remember I am not better than any of them and he saved me.....

 

[elf3]

What is the difference? Christ is the Church, He is Head over His own Body. It was Christ/the Holy Spirit that gave all revelation, including the meaning, so yes, I believe what Christ/the Church teaches.

What I don't believe is all the man made interpretations from a text.

Ok so you follow what your leaders say just like any other puppet of a man made church. Do you check what they teach against God's Word or do you follow blindly trusting them?

 

[elf3]

What is the difference? Christ is the Church, He is Head over His own Body. It was Christ/the Holy Spirit that gave all revelation, including the meaning, so yes, I believe what Christ/the Church teaches.

What I don't believe is all the man made interpretations from a text.

Actually your right. To me it doesn't matter what you follow but to someone else you spew this to it would because you speak false theology. Actually it's not theology you spew but false teaching.

 

[Cassian]

Ok so you follow what your leaders say just like any other puppet of a man made church. Do you check what they teach against God's Word or do you follow blindly trusting them?

So you believe Christ is a puppety of a man. That sounds blasphemous.

My faith is such that I believe what God gave to man, Christ and the Holy Spirit will teach the same.
You cannot use your paradigm to interpret what I am saying. You need to refute what I am saying, without interpreting it to fit your bias. All you do is create strawmen.

 

[Cassian]

Actually your right. To me it doesn't matter what you follow but to someone else you spew this to it would because you speak false theology. Actually it's not theology you spew but false teaching.

But yet you cannot show any evidence it is false teaching. You can merely assert. All you can actually say is it does not align with yours, but that does not make it false unless you can prove it is false.

 

[GuessWho]

When Paul says "not of works" he is referring to the notion that one can be saved by "obeying the Mosaic law" which is set apart from this transforming dynamic which changes the heart.

People who argue about faith versus works ignore this truth most of the times. While the verses about justification by faith can apply to the debates between catholics (who once tried to earn salvation by other grounds than faith) and reformers, when Paul insists on faith alone he wants to say that no matter of your religious and ethnical background, you can be part of the covenant family if you believe in Jesus Christ. Saint Paul wants to eliminate the boast of the Jews that they alone are part of the covenant because of their bloodline, the possession of the Law etc., etc.

If we read Paul in this key, we might discover what a great, truly blessed man he was. He himself believed (before his conversion) that Jews are the only righteous people before God. And he also, just like the other Jews based this superiority on the Jewish birth, on the possession of the law, on circumcision (the sign of the covenant between Abraham and YHWH).

 

[GuessWho]

And one more important thing: baptism (yes, water baptism) was never considered by christians as "work of righteousness". Not in the first century church and not in the traditional christian churches.

 

[Jackson123]

if you do then you would know that question 2-5 has nothing to do with being saved by grace through faith...but I will answer them...

yes...
Acts 10 King James Version (KJV)
10 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.



Did not God credit him for his good deeds...

The scripture says..repent and be baptised for the remission of sins ...before the catholic church existed...I don't know what part of scripture says ..."If a man accept the Lord"....but I know it says ..

John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:



this question is unfair to me ...what I think or believe cannot alter the facts...but only fuel propaganda....you have already made your decision regarding their fate....I have no facts on the matter...But remember I am not better than any of them and he saved me.....

Correct me if I am wrong.

1. By quoting John 1:12 you believe without water baptism people save as long as received Him, am I correct?
2. You not sure if one rape and kill will go to hell.

 

[newbirth]

Correct me if I am wrong.

1. By quoting John 1:12 you believe without water baptism people save as long as received Him, am I correct?
2. You not sure if one rape and kill will go to hell.

wrong on both counts.....if one receives /believes Christ they will do what the word says....God gives us power to become son...doers of the word not hearers only...
you say the person raped and killed I have no proof of that....should I agree with you that someone raped and killed just because you say so?

 

[elf3]

So you believe Christ is a puppety of a man. That sounds blasphemous.

Um ok when did I say that? Did you read what I said about the true church of Christ in the following post....

Do you know what the church is? The church, which Christ is the head of, consists of ALL of those who believe in the death and ressurection of Christ. All TRUE Christians, no matter what denomination, are in that Church. The true Church of Christ is not limited to your or any other "man made" denomination.

You are stretching what I said because you cannot argue against what the true church of Christ is.
You want to believe only your "denomination" is the true church...huh kinda like the JW'S

 

[elf3]

Well let's see here...the Bible is the very Word of God written by man given by God.

Jesus said to the Father, "your word is truth" John 17:17

The psalmist declared, "your word is truth" Psalm 119:160

Proverbs assures us that "every word of God proves true" Proverbs 30:5

2 Tim 3:16 "All scripture is God-breathed"

So you believe Christ is a puppety of a man. That sounds blasphemous.

My faith is such that I believe what God gave to man, Christ and the Holy Spirit will teach the same.
You cannot use your paradigm to interpret what I am saying. You need to refute what I am saying, without interpreting it to fit your bias. All you do is create strawmen.

Again for ya...

There ya go...Biblical proof the Word of God (the Bible) is truth and authority.

 

[Cassian]

So you believe Christ is a puppety of a man. That sounds blasphemous.

Um ok when did I say that? Did you read what I said about the true church of Christ in the following post....

Do you know what the church is? The church, which Christ is the head of, consists of ALL of those who believe in the death and ressurection of Christ. All TRUE Christians, no matter what denomination, are in that Church. The true Church of Christ is not limited to your or any other "man made" denomination.

You are stretching what I said because you cannot argue against what the true church of Christ is.
You want to believe only your "denomination" is the true church...huh kinda like the JW'S

Which is a strawman. You are fighting against your own bias and your own definition.

Not the one of scripture as it has always been believed. The Church existed long before your philosophical definition was formulated by Protestants.

Your back to blasphemy again. You are describing Christ and His Church as a man made denomination.
You're the one with the problem. You don't believe Christ established His Church in this world. You cannot get out of your sectarian, humanistic, philosophical definitions.

 

[Jackson123]

wrong on both counts.....if one receives /believes Christ they will do what the word says....God gives us power to become son...doers of the word not hearers only...
you say the person raped and killed I have no proof of that....should I agree with you that someone raped and killed just because you say so?

Receive the power become dower is a grace isn't it?

No you don't need to believe what I say, Just believe Father Gabriele Amroth Chief exorcist of the Vatican.


Emanuela Orlandi, 15, Killed To Cover Up Vatican 'Sex Parties,' Claims Father Gabriele Amorth


Father Gabriele Amorth, who was appointed by Pope John Paul II as the chief exorcist of the Vatican, claims that the a teenage girl who went missing in the 80s, Emanuela Orlandi, was murdered as part of underground Vatican sex parties with ties to the organized crime and foreign embassies.
Amorth said that in the summer of 1983, 15-year-old Orlandi was snatched from the streets of Rome and mysteriously vanished without a trace. He said she was forced to perform in sex parties.
This was a crime with a sexual motive, said Amorth, reported the Telegraph. Parties were organized, with a Vatican gendarme acting as the 'recruiter' of the girls. The network involved diplomatic personnel from a foreign embassy to the Holy See. I believe Emanuela ended up a victim of this circle.
For three decades, the fate of Orlandi has consumed Italian police investigators. In an effort to solve the cold case, police acted on an anonymous tip to a popular television show in which a supposed informant claimed Orlandi could be buried in a murdered gangster's tomb.
Last week, Italian authorities and forensic experts opened the tomb of mobster Enrico De Pedis's in their hunt for Orlandi's body. Bones not belonging to De Pedis were discovered in the crypt. Analysis is being done to determine if the bones belong to Orlandi.
De Pedis was a powerful and charismatic mobster who was ran a gang known as the Banda della Magliana. He was murdered at the age of 38 by members of his own crew after they had an internal dispute, reported the Sun.
Theories surrounding the missing Orlandi suggested that she was taken by De Pedis who wanted to put pressure on the Vatican to recover money that they were owed, reported the Sydney Morning Herald.
Another theory is that she was taken to be used as a bargaining chip in order to release Mehmet ali Agca, the Turkish gunman who attempted to assassinate Pope John Paul II, reportedly on orders from the KGB.
However, Father Amorth rejected these claims. Amorth said he is firm on his theory that the girl was abused and killed as that this was part all part of the conspiracy in the Vatican to cover up the sex parties.
'It led to the murder and then the hiding of her body, he said, reported the Daily Mail. Also involved is diplomatic staff from a foreign embassy to the Holy See.
The Vatican has yet to comment on Father Amorth's claims. However, they did say they have always co-operated with investigation into Emanuela Orlandi's murder.

​

 

[Cassian]

Well let's see here...the Bible is the very Word of God written by man given by God.

Jesus said to the Father, "your word is truth" John 17:17

The psalmist declared, "your word is truth" Psalm 119:160

Proverbs assures us that "every word of God proves true" Proverbs 30:5

2 Tim 3:16 "All scripture is God-breathed"




Again for ya...

There ya go...Biblical proof the Word of God (the Bible) is truth and authority.

It says nothing of the Bible's authority. The authority is attributed to God, not the text. It is what God says it is, not man.

You have not proven that scripture posseses authority in and of itself. That is the claim of all sola scripturists. You have even made that claim, that scripture is the sole source of faith and practice. Where does scripture state such a concept.

I believe that Christ is the sole source of faith and practice. He is the authority and He is the one who is making sure His Gospel is not changed. It has not changed in 2000 years. Yet, man's interpretations not only hundreds of them, but the original sola scripturist's views have been changed and nuanced many times over. Hardly a Gospel once given, to all, for all people.
You still have not shown that Christ failed or that His gospel has been changed.

I already cited to you I Tim 3:16 that states quite clearly that the Church is the ground and pillar of Truth, not a text. You are the one denying scripture. You substitute your personal interpretation upon the text and then say it means that when all you have in your opinion and personal opinion. If you cannot give evidence that what you believe has always been believed and practiced by the Church, the Body of Christ and preserved by the Holy Spirit, you have some form of man derived opinion/interpretation.

 

[elf3]

Which is a strawman. You are fighting against your own bias and your own definition.

Not the one of scripture as it has always been believed. The Church existed long before your philosophical definition was formulated by Protestants.

Your back to blasphemy again. You are describing Christ and His Church as a man made denomination.
You're the one with the problem. You don't believe Christ established His Church in this world. You cannot get out of your sectarian, humanistic, philosophical definitions.

Um read carefully how I describe the church of Christ....it's the whole body of believers. All of those who have faith in the death and ressurection of Christ. Blasphemy? Where is my blasphemy against Christ in this statement

 

[elf3]

It says nothing of the Bible's authority. The authority is attributed to God, not the text. It is what God says it is, not man.

You have not proven that scripture posseses authority in and of itself. That is the claim of all sola scripturists. You have even made that claim, that scripture is the sole source of faith and practice. Where does scripture state such a concept.

I believe that Christ is the sole source of faith and practice. He is the authority and He is the one who is making sure His Gospel is not changed. It has not changed in 2000 years. Yet, man's interpretations not only hundreds of them, but the original sola scripturist's views have been changed and nuanced many times over. Hardly a Gospel once given, to all, for all people.
You still have not shown that Christ failed or that His gospel has been changed.

I already cited to you I Tim 3:16 that states quite clearly that the Church is the ground and pillar of Truth, not a text. You are the one denying scripture. You substitute your personal interpretation upon the text and then say it means that when all you have in your opinion and personal opinion. If you cannot give evidence that what you believe has always been believed and practiced by the Church, the Body of Christ and preserved by the Holy Spirit, you have some form of man derived opinion/interpretation.

Well isn't this ironic. You say the Bible has no authority yet you use 1 Tim 3:16 to defend your stance (wrong verse by the way). So the Bible has no authority until you need it. You are the perfect example of a walking contradiction.

You skippy are for sure down side in and up side out. Bassackward.

 

[Cassian]

elf3,

The true Church of Christ is not limited to your or any other "man made" denomination.

How can that NOT be blasphemous. You are attributing what Christ has established as a man made denomination. That is attributing Satan's work as being that of Christ.

 

[elf3]

elf3,

How can that NOT be blasphemous. You are attributing what Christ has established as a man made denomination. That is attributing Satan's work as being that of Christ.

Oh my goodness do you know the definition of denomination. I never even came close to saying Christ has "established a man made denomination". Do you truly not know what the true Church of Christ is? It is also painfully obvious that you do not read your Bible (except maybe what your "church" tells you to read). Oh my gosh you are unbelievable in your understanding of even the basic understanding of the church.

 

[Cassian]

Well isn't this ironic. You say the Bible has no authority yet you use 1 Tim 3:15 to defend your stance (wrong verse by the way). So the Bible has no authority until you need it. You are the perfect example of a walking contradiction.

You skippy are for sure down side in and up side out. Bassackward.

Again you are disagreeing with your own philosophical definitions. I don't hold to the concept that the text has authority in and of itself. You hold to the idea that it is the sole source of faith and practice, but a faith and practice developed by individual men.

I believe that Christ is the authority, not the text. He is not preserving a text per se. The Holy Spirit is preserving God's revelation to man, the whole revelation.

If scripture is authoritative as a text, then I would presume that it would give the same meaning to everyone. But alas, that has not happened which manifestly shows it does not have authority as a text.

I hold to the authority of Christ who gave and is preserving his whole revelation, Gospel, not just the text.
The point is you cannot prove your position that scripture as authority. You are part of the sola scriptura melieu that uses a text, notwithstanding it is inspired and impose one's own personal interpretations upon that text. The fact that man has done this for 500 years manifestly shows scripture has no authority in itself. There are ONLY two authorities. It is either Christ or man. I hold to Christ, you hold to man.

You do realize that all these differing interpretations have all been developed by men. Arrogant and egoistic men/women besides, who put their names on their new innovation or church. Hardly the authority of Christ.