faith alone?

[elf3]

Grace is Christ drawing all men to him......grace first

John 12:31-33King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]31 [/SUP]Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]This he said, signifying what death he should die.




then faith comes by hearing .......
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

then obedience of faith....
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

[SUP]37 [/SUP]Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Grace "God's goodness toward humanity as expressed in the unmerited, undeserved favor given supremely in Jesus Christ to bring salvation, forgiveness and new life."

Redemption "a designation for Christians who have received salvation through Jesus Christ and are thus brought back into the relationship with God that they are intended to have."

Reconciliation "Bringing together parties who are estrainged. It is a key image of the Salvation accomplished by Jesus Christ in his death and ressurection. Christians are to be reconciled with God and with others."

(Westminster Dictionary of Theological Terms)

Ephesians 1:7 "In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;"

Grace comes from God the Father we are redeemed (brought back) by Christ. So you see its redemption by which we are brought back. It's by grace we have the "chance" to be redeemed.

 

[Cassian]

In what way do you mean "Scripture does not separate justification and sanctification"?

scripture does not separate them as does the Satisfaction Theory of Atonement. The theory states that justification means one has been declared "not guilty". Protestants, those that support the notion of "faith only" say that this saves a person. That all subsequent actions on the part of a believer has nothing to do with his salvation. Thus these proponents separate the two, justification from sanctification.
Scripture says that IF one does not do my commandments they are not of me. Thus no longer justified, since they show no faith, or a dead faith. Which is why scripture teaches that one can lose faith. In losing faith, obviously one cannot be justified any longer.
One is NOT losing salvation, but faith which is the foundation of one's ability to attain eternal life.

 

[Jackson123]

scripture does not separate them as does the Satisfaction Theory of Atonement. The theory states that justification means one has been declared "not guilty". Protestants, those that support the notion of "faith only" say that this saves a person. That all subsequent actions on the part of a believer has nothing to do with his salvation. Thus these proponents separate the two, justification from sanctification.
Scripture says that IF one does not do my commandments they are not of me. Thus no longer justified, since they show no faith, or a dead faith. Which is why scripture teaches that one can lose faith. In losing faith, obviously one cannot be justified any longer.
One is NOT losing salvation, but faith which is the foundation of one's ability to attain eternal life.

The bible teach us that there is correlation between faith and work, mean if one have faith in Jesus, than he will bear a good fruit.

The tree seen by it fruit. Mean if a man have a faith in Jesus he will bear good fruit/work.

But there is a big different between fruit and requirement.

salvation is grace, not what we earn by doing work. Good work is fruit of faith in Jesus.

 

[Cassian]

Grace "God's goodness toward humanity as expressed in the unmerited, undeserved favor given supremely in Jesus Christ to bring salvation, forgiveness and new life."

This is the gift He gave to all men. This is NOT given to just believers. This is embodied is such texts as II Cor 5:18-19, Rom 3:23-25, Col 1:20.

Redemption "a designation for Christians who have received salvation through Jesus Christ and are thus brought back into the relationship with God that they are intended to have."

all men have received this redemption. See above texts again. Your statement should not have the wording regarding relationship, since Christ by reconciling the world did not grant man a relationship. It makes a relationship possible.

Reconciliation "Bringing together parties who are estrainged. It is a key image of the Salvation accomplished by Jesus Christ in his death and ressurection.

this part is true for all men, the world. See above texts.

Christians are to be reconciled with God and with others."

which we do by faith. Also called justification by faith.

Ephesians 1:7 "In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;"

all men have access to this grace. This is the intent of Christ reconciling the world.

Grace comes from God the Father we are redeemed (brought back) by Christ. So you see its redemption by which we are brought back. It's by grace we have the "chance" to be redeemed.

not quite. It is because of His grace or redemption of the world, that we have the possibility to attain eternal life by and through faith.

Your view actually dismisses the work of Christ as stated in scripture, but you then ascribe His work solely to a relationship as if believer are the only people on earth who could be considered fallen and under the curse of death through Adam.

seems to be more predestination than scriptural.

 

[elf3]

This is the gift He gave to all men. This is NOT given to just believers. This is embodied is such texts as II Cor 5:18-19, Rom 3:23-25, Col 1:20.

all men have received this redemption. See above texts again. Your statement should not have the wording regarding relationship, since Christ by reconciling the world did not grant man a relationship. It makes a relationship possible.

this part is true for all men, the world. See above texts.
which we do by faith. Also called justification by faith.


all men have access to this grace. This is the intent of Christ reconciling the world.

not quite. It is because of His grace or redemption of the world, that we have the possibility to attain eternal life by and through faith.

Your view actually dismisses the work of Christ as stated in scripture, but you then ascribe His work solely to a relationship as if believer are the only people on earth who could be considered fallen and under the curse of death through Adam.

seems to be more predestination than scriptural.

Oh ok so you know way more than the people who wrote the dictionary I guess. You have Utaitarianist ideas that are false. You do realize that not everyone is saved right?

 

[elf3]

scripture does not separate them as does the Satisfaction Theory of Atonement. The theory states that justification means one has been declared "not guilty". Protestants, those that support the notion of "faith only" say that this saves a person. That all subsequent actions on the part of a believer has nothing to do with his salvation. Thus these proponents separate the two, justification from sanctification.
Scripture says that IF one does not do my commandments they are not of me. Thus no longer justified, since they show no faith, or a dead faith. Which is why scripture teaches that one can lose faith. In losing faith, obviously one cannot be justified any longer.
One is NOT losing salvation, but faith which is the foundation of one's ability to attain eternal life.

Yep justification and sactification are separate. Justification is "righteous" before God. Sactification is the work of the Holy Spirit in a believers life.

You have a mixed up "thinking" upon faith for sure.

 

[elf3]

Oh ok so you know way more than the people who wrote the dictionary I guess. You have Utaitarianist ideas that are false. You do realize that not everyone is saved right?

Stupid auto correct way off. Should be "universalist"

 

[newbirth]

Thank for the correction.

I agree grace first. but not obedience first.

so the order must be:

Grace > faith will produce salvation and fruit where obedience is include in the category of fruit.

faith cannot produce salvation....we are saved by grace....through faith....faith is the means by which we enter into his grace....
grace > obedience of faith.... one must now obey that which they believe.....which is the Gospel of Christ...not part but all...obedience puts everything in place....that is why one cannot choose to obey what they want to and disobey what they don't like...beginning with repentance and remission...

Luke 24:46-48King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]46 [/SUP]And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
[SUP]47 [/SUP]And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
[SUP]48 [/SUP]And ye are witnesses of these things.


that is why when Peter and the apostles were asked ...what shall we do ?
[SUP]
38 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

that has not changed as far as I know.....the promise is to all ....

 

[kennethcadwell]

Faith is very important, but the thing everybody must look at is do they have true faith in our Lord or just a watered down version of faith.

Having faith in Jesus as your Lord and Savior means you trust in Him, and follow Him and do what He taught.

Our Lord Jesus never said just believe He existed and died on the cross and you are fine, saved.
He said believe on Him and you will be saved, and then He gave us examples in the gospel of what it means to believe in Him.
He said if you believe in Him you will observe and do all that He commanded.
He said a number of things that His sheep would do in the gospel, and that if these things do not follow the believer than they are not a true sheep.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

I don't know if obedience first or faith first. It said obedience to the Faith

Is obedience to the faith have the same meaning obedience to the Lord? I thing Obedience to the faith will produce obedience to the Lord but do not have the same meaning.

I believe obedience is fruit. One must abide first to the vine then bear the fruit.

If follow your order it will be:

Obedience > receive Grace > save. Am I right?
I believe the order is:

Faith > salvation and fruit.

Obedience is one of the fruit.

1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

IMO it would be faith first then obedience.
since the fall,being obedient would end up just being a work of the flesh if it came first.

 

[newbirth]

Grace "God's goodness toward humanity as expressed in the unmerited, undeserved favor given supremely in Jesus Christ to bring salvation, forgiveness and new life."

Redemption "a designation for Christians who have received salvation through Jesus Christ and are thus brought back into the relationship with God that they are intended to have."

Reconciliation "Bringing together parties who are estrainged. It is a key image of the Salvation accomplished by Jesus Christ in his death and ressurection. Christians are to be reconciled with God and with others."

(Westminster Dictionary of Theological Terms)

Ephesians 1:7 "In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;"

Grace comes from God the Father we are redeemed (brought back) by Christ. So you see its redemption by which we are brought back. It's by grace we have the "chance" to be redeemed.

were you just looking for a place to put a comment ....because your response has nothing to do with my post

 

[newbirth]

Yep justification and sactification are separate. Justification is "righteous" before God. Sactification is the work of the Holy Spirit in a believers life.

You have a mixed up "thinking" upon faith for sure.

well you separate them but they can only be effective together....in order to be sanctified(set apart for holy use) you must be justified.(made righteous)...even if you change the order...as in the case of Paul where he was sanctified (set apart for holy use) before being justified...

 

[elf3]

were you just looking for a place to put a comment ....because your response has nothing to do with my post

Actually it does directly relate to your post. Read your "definition" of grace compared to mine.

 

[Cassian]

The bible teach us that there is correlation between faith and work, mean if one have faith in Jesus, than he will bear a good fruit.

The tree seen by it fruit. Mean if a man have a faith in Jesus he will bear good fruit/work.

But there is a big different between fruit and requirement.

salvation is grace, not what we earn by doing work. Good work is fruit of faith in Jesus.

There is no text or implication that just because a man has faith that he will automatically produce fruit. The parable of the sower is the best example that many fall away even before they bear fruit. Even if they did bear fruit for a time, they can cease to bear fruit. If the branch does not bear fruit it will be cut off. You cannot be saved if you are cut off.

 

[Cassian]

Yep justification and sactification are separate. Justification is "righteous" before God. Sactification is the work of the Holy Spirit in a believers life.

You have a mixed up "thinking" upon faith for sure.

they are separate words, but sanctification cannot occur without man's cooperation. If a believer desires to leave Christ, then obviously he is no longer justified. You cannot lose faith and still be justified. At least not in scripture. It may work for your theory.

 

[newbirth]

Actually it does directly relate to your post. Read your "definition" of grace compared to mine.

are you saying my definition is wrong?.....
2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

 

[newbirth]

Grace "God's goodness toward humanity as expressed in the unmerited, undeserved favor given supremely in Jesus Christ to bring salvation, forgiveness and new life."

Redemption "a designation for Christians who have received salvation through Jesus Christ and are thus brought back into the relationship with God that they are intended to have."

Reconciliation "Bringing together parties who are estrainged. It is a key image of the Salvation accomplished by Jesus Christ in his death and ressurection. Christians are to be reconciled with God and with others."

(Westminster Dictionary of Theological Terms)

Ephesians 1:7 "In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;"

Grace comes from God the Father we are redeemed (brought back) by Christ. So you see its redemption by which we are brought back. It's by grace we have the "chance" to be redeemed.

what you are saying here my friend is you can enter the kingdom your way........this is God's way...the(goodness) grace of God brings us to repentance ...you must be born of water and the spirit to enter the kingdom (water baptism and gift of the spirit) as per Act 2:38
you want to enter the kingdom by some figment of your imagination and your own set of rules...

 

[Cassian]

Oh ok so you know way more than the people who wrote the dictionary I guess. You have Utaitarianist ideas that are false. You do realize that not everyone is saved right?

First, if a protestant made the dictionary, it will reflect his bias. as yours does. I don't have Universalist ideas. Although a universalist will also use them. What I have and scripture teaches is the Incarnation/resurrection of Christ. His Incarnation/resurrection does have meaning and content. They are not just meaningless words which is apparent in your view.
You consistently show a clear ignorance of the Incarnation and resurrection of Christ. Hardly a sole universalist concept.

 

[Angelmommie]

Hebrews 11:1[FONT=Arial, Verdana]: “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.” Isn't faith the very 1st "stepping stone" in Christianity? Without it there is no Christian Religion..there is no God..so isn't it the umbrella of all christian things and everything else, the bible and everything there within falls under faith, without faith we would not believe in these things..am I thinking too simply?[/FONT]

 

[elf3]

Cassian and newbirth, I find it ironic how both of you reject the definition of "grace" that I give.
You both consistently ignore Scripture that's put before you. You both argue points not made but you insist that someone made. You both accuse others of ignorance when it's you who ignore. You both ignore Scripture placed before you. You both reject anything "quoted" by other theologians.

So yeah, it doesn't matter what I say, who I quote or what passage of Scripture I use as you will both ignore it.