faith alone?
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If one is refuting it, how can it be ignored?
Show that your view has always been believed from the beginning. So far, your view hardly makes it back to the Reformation,let alone the early Church.
Just so you know, the Orthodox reject the definition of grace has held by the RC as well. Most Protestants actually hold to the same concept as the RC. That being both RC/Protestants hold to a created form of grace. Whereas the Orthodox believe in the sharing of the uncreated Divine Energies of God.
Show that your view has always been believed from the beginning. So far, your view hardly makes it back to the Reformation,let alone the early Church.
Just so you know, the Orthodox reject the definition of grace has held by the RC as well. Most Protestants actually hold to the same concept as the RC. That being both RC/Protestants hold to a created form of grace. Whereas the Orthodox believe in the sharing of the uncreated Divine Energies of God.
1. Grace.
All are sin and short of the glory of God. And the wage of sin is death.
Man can't help himself from the death penalty. Jesus come to help. That is come first and the key of salvation.
Jesus invite every body to take this grace He announce that the grace is available to whoever believe. John 3:16
New International Version
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Here is the time when faith play the rule.
Whoever believe.
Faith is believe.
Whoever believe mean whoever have a faith.
So after Grace, Faith.
That is why I am not surprise the term obedience to faith.
If Faith not there yet, than how to obedience to faith.
You have to obey to the governor.
But the governor is no longer exist and there is no election yet. How to obey to thing that not exist yet?
Faith may not produce salvation, Jesus is the producer of salvation, but Jesus only produce salvation if one have a faith to Him.
It not require work because work is fruit. Branch can't produce fruit of it self. If fruit is requirement before salvation than no body save.
All are sin and short of the glory of God. And the wage of sin is death.
Man can't help himself from the death penalty. Jesus come to help. That is come first and the key of salvation.
Jesus invite every body to take this grace He announce that the grace is available to whoever believe. John 3:16
New International Version
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Here is the time when faith play the rule.
Whoever believe.
Faith is believe.
Whoever believe mean whoever have a faith.
So after Grace, Faith.
That is why I am not surprise the term obedience to faith.
If Faith not there yet, than how to obedience to faith.
You have to obey to the governor.
But the governor is no longer exist and there is no election yet. How to obey to thing that not exist yet?
Faith may not produce salvation, Jesus is the producer of salvation, but Jesus only produce salvation if one have a faith to Him.
It not require work because work is fruit. Branch can't produce fruit of it self. If fruit is requirement before salvation than no body save.
I agree, Obey the Lord mean do His command, mean doing love work, since Jesus said all the command/law is base on Love your God with all your heart and love you neighbor like your self.
Without help of the Lord, Branch can't bear the fruit of itself.
If branch can obey without abide to the Lord, than Jesus is liar.
when Jesus say believe in him...he expect you to do as he says....salvation is a carefully laid out plan....people cannot just make up their own rules on how to be saved...Jesus finished the work for us to receive salvation....but we must follow his plan to the letter to be saved...
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Jesus lay out plan and He tell the lay out to us.
Whoever believe in Him will be save. That is His lay out.
Faith is believe isn't it?
Faith is believe in the sense of entrust. not only believe that Jesus is God, but also believe His teaching.
And his teaching said branch can't bear the fruit of it self, Why we believe we can bear the fruit/obey him before we even have a faith to abide to Him.
Do you know any body abide in Him because do not have a faith to Him?
You abide because you trust Him.
In Indonesia some bus is not reliable. There is unreliable bus company, they not maintain they bus good. Every now and than we read in the news they bus involve in an accident because part failure. Recently one of they bus accident and kill 27 people because brake failure. I don't trust this company and I don't want to use they bus.
I believe it happen when people abide to the Lord. It start with entrust in Him. If you not trust him you not going to abide to him.
You trust His promise that whoever believe in Him will be save, than you abide to Him and bear the fruit. The fruit/obedience not come before faith.
So It is Grace when He announce there is hope for sinner mankind whoever believe/entrust/have a faith to Him.
Than because we trust him, we abide in Him and bear the fruit.
Whoever believe in Him will be save. That is His lay out.
Faith is believe isn't it?
Faith is believe in the sense of entrust. not only believe that Jesus is God, but also believe His teaching.
And his teaching said branch can't bear the fruit of it self, Why we believe we can bear the fruit/obey him before we even have a faith to abide to Him.
Do you know any body abide in Him because do not have a faith to Him?
You abide because you trust Him.
In Indonesia some bus is not reliable. There is unreliable bus company, they not maintain they bus good. Every now and than we read in the news they bus involve in an accident because part failure. Recently one of they bus accident and kill 27 people because brake failure. I don't trust this company and I don't want to use they bus.
I believe it happen when people abide to the Lord. It start with entrust in Him. If you not trust him you not going to abide to him.
You trust His promise that whoever believe in Him will be save, than you abide to Him and bear the fruit. The fruit/obedience not come before faith.
So It is Grace when He announce there is hope for sinner mankind whoever believe/entrust/have a faith to Him.
Than because we trust him, we abide in Him and bear the fruit.
E
See this where all yinz have disregarded certain things I have said and only argued about what you "feel" is truth.
I have already posted Scripture supporting the truth (which newbirth disregarded) and I have already told both newbirth and Cassian the truth on how our faith in God will be shown by our works. How it is not our works but our faith in Jesus by which we are justified.
And I will be willing to bet either one or both will argue against what I say here.
You stand behind one passage of Scripture for your "works" salvation James 2:24 and disregard every other passage including Ephesians 2:8,9. In fact you will argue that Eph 2:8,9 is only talking about law thus disregarding that no one can take credit for their salvation.
Our faith will be shown by our "good works" our salvation will not be earned by our "good works".
I have already posted Scripture supporting the truth (which newbirth disregarded) and I have already told both newbirth and Cassian the truth on how our faith in God will be shown by our works. How it is not our works but our faith in Jesus by which we are justified.
And I will be willing to bet either one or both will argue against what I say here.
You stand behind one passage of Scripture for your "works" salvation James 2:24 and disregard every other passage including Ephesians 2:8,9. In fact you will argue that Eph 2:8,9 is only talking about law thus disregarding that no one can take credit for their salvation.
Our faith will be shown by our "good works" our salvation will not be earned by our "good works".
You are defending the concept of faith alone. The Bible NEVER uses faith alone anywhere. It uses faith. Justification by faith simply means that when one believes that Christ is the Son of God, that Christ saved us from death and sin it places us into a correct relationship with Him. It is the beginning of the whole concept of attaining eternal life. The works part authenticates, justifies ones faith. Your action shows that your faith is real, not a idea. Faith alone is a dead faith, a meaningless faith. It does nothing it cannot even justify you.
Another aspect of your view is that you also believe that Justification means receiving eternal life, or the actual judgment of eternal life. One may take possession of it through baptism, repentance, but each of these, though necessary, cannot save you in and of themselves. The saving aspect is working with God, through faith, to attain eternal life. You are required to do the very same thing Adam was doing, walking and talking with God, fulfilling the purpose of his existence. God did not give Adam eternal life simply by creating him, or using him as a tool, a manipulated object.
You have the same purpose to perform. Christ is not going to do it alone, just as He didn't with Adam. You also have the freedom to leave the relationship. There is nothing baring you from leaving.
Quite the contrary. I don't believe in "works salvation" as you define it.
It is the rest of scripture that shows your view is incorrect. Eph 2:8-9 is the most misunderstood text by the "faith alone" proponents. The actual salvation Paul is addressing is what Christ accomplished for mankind up to vs 5, then believers are referenced it is also by faith also saves. But never is it faith alone which is why James complements Eph 2:8.
It has the same sequence of II Cor 5:18-19 where Christ is reconciling the world, but the purpose was so man could reconcile himself to God by faith. Rom 3:23-25 is the same thing. Christ reconciled the world back to God, so that man could respond by faith. Col 1:20, Christ redeemed the whole creation through His Blood, so that man could have a relationship with Him. We don't need to justify ourselves to overcome death and sin because Christ already accomplished this. Our faith in believing He saved us from death and sin, justifies us, placing us into a correct relationship with Him. Rather than trying to save ourselves from death and sin by the works of the law (which Paul states is impossible, which is why Christ was needed) our personal salvation (attaining eternal life) is through faith, but faith cannot exist without works. No works, no faith, no justification, no eternal life.
you don't need to worry about earning anything. The statement is based on your whole misunderstanding of eternal life in conjunction with the purpose of man's existence as well as what Christ accomplished for all of mankind/the world.
You are correct in that works do show the evidence of faith, but you fail to understand that if works justifies, makes real our faith, that faith cannot exist without works, it is absurd to say that works have no part in our salvation. It is actually the very content of attaining eternal life. You cannot inherit eternal life by faith alone. If so, Satan is saved as well.
It is why you and every other human being will give an account of your works.
Another aspect of your view is that you also believe that Justification means receiving eternal life, or the actual judgment of eternal life. One may take possession of it through baptism, repentance, but each of these, though necessary, cannot save you in and of themselves. The saving aspect is working with God, through faith, to attain eternal life. You are required to do the very same thing Adam was doing, walking and talking with God, fulfilling the purpose of his existence. God did not give Adam eternal life simply by creating him, or using him as a tool, a manipulated object.
You have the same purpose to perform. Christ is not going to do it alone, just as He didn't with Adam. You also have the freedom to leave the relationship. There is nothing baring you from leaving.
Quite the contrary. I don't believe in "works salvation" as you define it.
It is the rest of scripture that shows your view is incorrect. Eph 2:8-9 is the most misunderstood text by the "faith alone" proponents. The actual salvation Paul is addressing is what Christ accomplished for mankind up to vs 5, then believers are referenced it is also by faith also saves. But never is it faith alone which is why James complements Eph 2:8.
It has the same sequence of II Cor 5:18-19 where Christ is reconciling the world, but the purpose was so man could reconcile himself to God by faith. Rom 3:23-25 is the same thing. Christ reconciled the world back to God, so that man could respond by faith. Col 1:20, Christ redeemed the whole creation through His Blood, so that man could have a relationship with Him. We don't need to justify ourselves to overcome death and sin because Christ already accomplished this. Our faith in believing He saved us from death and sin, justifies us, placing us into a correct relationship with Him. Rather than trying to save ourselves from death and sin by the works of the law (which Paul states is impossible, which is why Christ was needed) our personal salvation (attaining eternal life) is through faith, but faith cannot exist without works. No works, no faith, no justification, no eternal life.
you don't need to worry about earning anything. The statement is based on your whole misunderstanding of eternal life in conjunction with the purpose of man's existence as well as what Christ accomplished for all of mankind/the world.
You are correct in that works do show the evidence of faith, but you fail to understand that if works justifies, makes real our faith, that faith cannot exist without works, it is absurd to say that works have no part in our salvation. It is actually the very content of attaining eternal life. You cannot inherit eternal life by faith alone. If so, Satan is saved as well.
It is why you and every other human being will give an account of your works.
You still have not figured it out. What good is it if a man says/claims he has faith but he has no works. Can that faith save him? This is not genuine faith but an empty profession of faith. The type of faith that saves trusts exclusively in Christ for salvation and this type of faith is accompanied by works. The other type of faith that does not save is an empty profession of faith, a dead faith that is not accompanied by works. Genuine faith (root of salvation) is evidenced by works (fruit of salvation) but we are still saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9). Not hard to understand, just hard for you to ACCEPT.
That faith demonstrates that it's dead because it merely professes to be genuine but demonstrates by the lack of works that it's dead. This is what you can't figure out. James is not saying that genuine faith in Christ is dead until it produces works and then suddenly it becomes alive. That's like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes alive. Works are not the source of life in faith, but they are the demonstrative evidence that faith is alive. It takes a good tree to produce good fruit. A bad tree cannot produce good fruit.
Water baptism and Spirit baptism are two distinct baptisms. Man water baptizes and God Spirit baptizes. Have you figured that out?
That faith demonstrates that it's dead because it merely professes to be genuine but demonstrates by the lack of works that it's dead. This is what you can't figure out. James is not saying that genuine faith in Christ is dead until it produces works and then suddenly it becomes alive. That's like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes alive. Works are not the source of life in faith, but they are the demonstrative evidence that faith is alive. It takes a good tree to produce good fruit. A bad tree cannot produce good fruit.
Water baptism and Spirit baptism are two distinct baptisms. Man water baptizes and God Spirit baptizes. Have you figured that out?
let us suppose there is a bus company you trust and you want to get from point A (unsaved) to point B(save) you believe the bus company can perform that service...the company has a plan for all who wants to get from point A to point B...
get to the station ...
collect your token.....
go directly to the bus that takes you from point A to point B....
get on the bus ...
give the driver the token...
be seated and remain in the bus until you reach point B
you or anyone else who wants to get from point A to point B must follow those instructions...
what you are suggesting is that you can stay at home and believe and trust that the bus can and will take you from point A to point B, because you believe and if you trust and believe hard enough you will miraculously get on the bus and be taken there...
get to the station ...
collect your token.....
go directly to the bus that takes you from point A to point B....
get on the bus ...
give the driver the token...
be seated and remain in the bus until you reach point B
you or anyone else who wants to get from point A to point B must follow those instructions...
what you are suggesting is that you can stay at home and believe and trust that the bus can and will take you from point A to point B, because you believe and if you trust and believe hard enough you will miraculously get on the bus and be taken there...
Are you kidding me? What baptism started at Pentecost? Acts 1:5 - for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now." Acts 11:16 - Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 4:5 - ..one baptism. 1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body.. Plain ordinary H20 has NO power to accomplish this.
What makes you think that plain ordinary H20 has the power to spiritually cleanse us? What water does spiritually cleanse us?
John 4:10 - Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water."
John 4:14 - but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.
John 7:37 - On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
1 Corinthians 12:13 - ..drink into one Spirit. Jesus connects LIVING WATER with everlasting life and living water is not water baptism.
LOL! Yeah right.
Those who have been justified by faith (Romans 5:1) have been saved through faith (Ephesians 2:8). That is scripture. Justification is not the same thing as ongoing Sanctification, regardless of your theories. If the truth is what you are looking for then you will find it in the scriptures that I have shared with you. If accommodating the theology of your church at all costs is the only thing that you are interested in, then you won't accept the truth no matter how many times that I explain it to you.
What makes you think that plain ordinary H20 has the power to spiritually cleanse us? What water does spiritually cleanse us?
John 4:10 - Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water."
John 4:14 - but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.
John 7:37 - On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
1 Corinthians 12:13 - ..drink into one Spirit. Jesus connects LIVING WATER with everlasting life and living water is not water baptism.
LOL! Yeah right.
Those who have been justified by faith (Romans 5:1) have been saved through faith (Ephesians 2:8). That is scripture. Justification is not the same thing as ongoing Sanctification, regardless of your theories. If the truth is what you are looking for then you will find it in the scriptures that I have shared with you. If accommodating the theology of your church at all costs is the only thing that you are interested in, then you won't accept the truth no matter how many times that I explain it to you.
I already showed you in post #595 in the Conditional Salvation thread. Now we are back to post #618 in that thread - I have already answered your questions. There is just no getting through to you. 
I feel like I'm talking to the wall.
I never said that God commanded man to Spirit baptize. I have already explained the truth to you about faith and works numerous times but in your delusional world of unbelief you just don't get it.
I feel like I'm talking to the wall.I never said that God commanded man to Spirit baptize. I have already explained the truth to you about faith and works numerous times but in your delusional world of unbelief you just don't get it.
You may believe in multiple baptisms, but scripture has ONLY ONE. It has been water baptism from the very beginning. Described in detail in the most early writings. Spirit baptism as you call it happens in water baptism. Your false assumption I that the Holy Spirit cannot use water for the purpose of baptism.
Of course this is why you and most Protestants deny all of the sacraments as well. God cannot use His creation to convey grace because according to the Gnostic view, material is evil. It also holds to Zwingli, the first reformer that denied the sacraments as having any meaning.
Show me any evidence that the early Church practiced more than one baptism as well as one being ONLY Spirit baptism.
You are even confusing baptism with receiving the Holy Spirit. They are not even the same thing. One is baptized, then receives the Holy Spirit.
It is in scripture. Water and the Spirit, John 3:5 is the ONLY way to enter the kingdom. Rom 6 is called the baptism chapter and describes exactly what happens when one is water baptized. Water in ancient times in the OT was a symbol of both death and life. This is the very same experience one has with water baptism. We are immersed into death, we rise to new life.
I have found the Truth in scriptures but the Truth is based on the Revelation of the Holy Spirit from the beginning. Truth is not based on many men's personal interpretative theories that have no historical record. Your theories are simply sectarian philosophical ideas but has no reality. There are many such sectarian ideas of men all based on scripture. All make the same claim you just did, They all want people to follow their particular philosophy of some form of salvation. Yet, history clearly shows that what they believe has never existed prior to their own interpretation. Hardly a Gospel from the beginning, Hardly a Gospel that is being preserved by the Holy Spirit within His Body from the beginning.
Which obviously then you cannot even believe in the Same Christ, who is Head of His Church, enlivened by the Holy Spirit. You have accepted philosophical concepts and formed your own personal religion. Christ stated that His way was the ONLY way. Unless you can show that the Holy Spirit changed His mind and gave individual men new revelation for modern times you are holding to unscriptural ideas. Ideas that have never been held from the beginning.
Of course this is why you and most Protestants deny all of the sacraments as well. God cannot use His creation to convey grace because according to the Gnostic view, material is evil. It also holds to Zwingli, the first reformer that denied the sacraments as having any meaning.
Show me any evidence that the early Church practiced more than one baptism as well as one being ONLY Spirit baptism.
You are even confusing baptism with receiving the Holy Spirit. They are not even the same thing. One is baptized, then receives the Holy Spirit.
It is in scripture. Water and the Spirit, John 3:5 is the ONLY way to enter the kingdom. Rom 6 is called the baptism chapter and describes exactly what happens when one is water baptized. Water in ancient times in the OT was a symbol of both death and life. This is the very same experience one has with water baptism. We are immersed into death, we rise to new life.
I have found the Truth in scriptures but the Truth is based on the Revelation of the Holy Spirit from the beginning. Truth is not based on many men's personal interpretative theories that have no historical record. Your theories are simply sectarian philosophical ideas but has no reality. There are many such sectarian ideas of men all based on scripture. All make the same claim you just did, They all want people to follow their particular philosophy of some form of salvation. Yet, history clearly shows that what they believe has never existed prior to their own interpretation. Hardly a Gospel from the beginning, Hardly a Gospel that is being preserved by the Holy Spirit within His Body from the beginning.
Which obviously then you cannot even believe in the Same Christ, who is Head of His Church, enlivened by the Holy Spirit. You have accepted philosophical concepts and formed your own personal religion. Christ stated that His way was the ONLY way. Unless you can show that the Holy Spirit changed His mind and gave individual men new revelation for modern times you are holding to unscriptural ideas. Ideas that have never been held from the beginning.
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That bus is Jesus. He come from Heaven to the earth were our home is. He pick up us, He said follow me. He know we can't do it without His help. He said branch can't bear fruit of itself.
Let me ask you 2 questions:
1. Do you expect bear fruit first then He accept you, while He said abide/follow me first then you will bear fruit?
2. Do you think He is a liar?
Can you bear fruit of yourself?
Let me ask you 2 questions:
1. Do you expect bear fruit first then He accept you, while He said abide/follow me first then you will bear fruit?
2. Do you think He is a liar?
Can you bear fruit of yourself?
Luke 3:7-9King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
faith comes by hearing...if that cannot bear fruit when you hear and believe... you are lost until you start bearing bro....if you do not do what you hear and believe how can you to be saved? you want to hear and believe and not obey what you hear...because you follow a doctrine of man that says you are saved when you believe...scripture says devils believe and tremble...you want to believe and do nothing...to be saved....then you will do....satan is feeding you the same old lie...."you will not surly die"...and you are swallowing it hook line and sinker....
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
faith comes by hearing...if that cannot bear fruit when you hear and believe... you are lost until you start bearing bro....if you do not do what you hear and believe how can you to be saved? you want to hear and believe and not obey what you hear...because you follow a doctrine of man that says you are saved when you believe...scripture says devils believe and tremble...you want to believe and do nothing...to be saved....then you will do....satan is feeding you the same old lie...."you will not surly die"...and you are swallowing it hook line and sinker....
E
You have stated that I am defending "faith alone" which is true but you obviously have not read all my posts. I have explained what is meant by faith alone in other forums and posts to you and newbirth but you keep going back to something I never said. You disregard certain things I say and read into my posts along with other people's posts what you want.
In this post you state that we receive the Holy Spirit when we get water baptized. False, as Romans 6:3 And 1 Cor 12:13 are both plainly talking about baptism of the Holy Spirit that occurs for all true Christians at the moment they accept Christ as Savior. Romans 8:9 if we haven't been baptized by and are not now in dwelt by the Holy Spirit, we are not truly Christians.
You state that we do not receive the Holy Spirit until we are water baptized. That would mean that we accept Christ and until we get baptized by water we are in a state of "limbo" as far as our walk with Christ. Meaning sanctification could not start until we get water baptized. So according to you we must accept Christ and get baptized immediately so that sanctification could begin. You use Acts 2:38 to defend this but you rely on this one passage with disregard for other passages on baptism. You use John 3:5 to defend salvation by water baptism but you fail to actually study the text as what is meant by "born of water and the Spirit". You take it word for word without proper study of "born of water and the Spirit".
You say my views only go back to the reformation when they actually go back to Jesus.
In this post you state that we receive the Holy Spirit when we get water baptized. False, as Romans 6:3 And 1 Cor 12:13 are both plainly talking about baptism of the Holy Spirit that occurs for all true Christians at the moment they accept Christ as Savior. Romans 8:9 if we haven't been baptized by and are not now in dwelt by the Holy Spirit, we are not truly Christians.
You state that we do not receive the Holy Spirit until we are water baptized. That would mean that we accept Christ and until we get baptized by water we are in a state of "limbo" as far as our walk with Christ. Meaning sanctification could not start until we get water baptized. So according to you we must accept Christ and get baptized immediately so that sanctification could begin. You use Acts 2:38 to defend this but you rely on this one passage with disregard for other passages on baptism. You use John 3:5 to defend salvation by water baptism but you fail to actually study the text as what is meant by "born of water and the Spirit". You take it word for word without proper study of "born of water and the Spirit".
You say my views only go back to the reformation when they actually go back to Jesus.
both of these texts are referring to baptism. There is ONLY ONE baptism. It is the Holy Spirit through water.
One receives the Holy Spirit after baptism. It is part of baptism but a separate event. One does not receive the Holy Spirit, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit by baptism. Pentecost bears this out in Acts 2:38.
In Acts 8 5-8 you have the same events. People believed and were baptized, then the laying on of Hands confirmed the gift of the Holy Spirit. Paul also gifted some baptized believers with the laying on of hands Acts 19:1-7. This has always been two events in the Church right from Pentecost.
quite correct. Which confirms that faith alone is dead. If one cannot even obey the first commandment regarding becoming a believer what good is a dead faith.
why would you think that sanctification could occur without being IN Christ. The ONLY way to enter is by baptism, John 3:5, water and the Spirit.
I don't believe the Holy Spirit got it wrong and neither did the Apostles when they delivered the Gospel and established Christ's Church here on earth.
You are depending of your personal ability to attempt to deduct all the meanings from a text that does not explain every detail regarding what the Church has always believed.
prove that they do. So, far I have not seen any evidence that you hold to anything that the early Church believed.
One receives the Holy Spirit after baptism. It is part of baptism but a separate event. One does not receive the Holy Spirit, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit by baptism. Pentecost bears this out in Acts 2:38.
In Acts 8 5-8 you have the same events. People believed and were baptized, then the laying on of Hands confirmed the gift of the Holy Spirit. Paul also gifted some baptized believers with the laying on of hands Acts 19:1-7. This has always been two events in the Church right from Pentecost.
quite correct. Which confirms that faith alone is dead. If one cannot even obey the first commandment regarding becoming a believer what good is a dead faith.
why would you think that sanctification could occur without being IN Christ. The ONLY way to enter is by baptism, John 3:5, water and the Spirit.
I don't believe the Holy Spirit got it wrong and neither did the Apostles when they delivered the Gospel and established Christ's Church here on earth.
You are depending of your personal ability to attempt to deduct all the meanings from a text that does not explain every detail regarding what the Church has always believed.
prove that they do. So, far I have not seen any evidence that you hold to anything that the early Church believed.
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K
Let's look at three scriptures the Lord said;
John 14:15
"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
Luke 6:46
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Matthew 28:16-20
The Great Commission
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
In the discussion of baptism that is going on you will see how in the great commission Jesus commanded baptism to be done. If you apply that to the other scriptures I gave it shows that if you call and love Jesus as your Lord and Savior you will follow His commandments. The baptism mentioned here is the word baptizo which means the immersion in water, so to put this together with what He said then the full baptism would be as follows;
Immersing one in water while stating the words, I baptize you in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Then one can receive the Holy Spirit and His guidance with a clean conscious.
John 14:15
"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
Luke 6:46
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Matthew 28:16-20
The Great Commission
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
In the discussion of baptism that is going on you will see how in the great commission Jesus commanded baptism to be done. If you apply that to the other scriptures I gave it shows that if you call and love Jesus as your Lord and Savior you will follow His commandments. The baptism mentioned here is the word baptizo which means the immersion in water, so to put this together with what He said then the full baptism would be as follows;
Immersing one in water while stating the words, I baptize you in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Then one can receive the Holy Spirit and His guidance with a clean conscious.