faith alone?
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E
You also cannot use the Bible to defend you stance. You cannot use the Bible to rebuke others. You cannot even say that you gain understanding by the Holy Spirit because as you say "Christs church has the final authority on truth". Therefore you have even put the Church ahead of Christ because the Gospel of Christ is recorded and given to us in the word of God which is the Bible. If you refuse the authority of God's Word then you refuse the authority of God.
J
All the cults are institutional-centric, at the bottom line. This is how they control people, by a pretense of exclusivity. The only true church is one which uplifts our God, Jesus Christ, His gospel, and He alone, and that gospel of the New Testament identical and necessary for all mankind, God no respecter of persons, with no doctrine true which conflicts with holy scripture, nor are there those with any private interpretation of His holy word.
E
It's ironic how they conclude we have a wrong interpretation of Scripture when they themselves don't believe in the authority of Scripture.
And Cassian you are the one "lumped" with the JW'S for they also blindly follow their "church" for interpretation. They also put their "church" ahead of the authority of Scripture.
And Cassian you are the one "lumped" with the JW'S for they also blindly follow their "church" for interpretation. They also put their "church" ahead of the authority of Scripture.
K
The Lord our God makes it clear;
Deuteronomy 4:2
"You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
This means no man, not even the pope has the authority to change the words/commands He has already given us.
So if the bible which is made up of the Lord our Gods words say things are not acceptable, and man says they now are then they go against the Word.
Mixing religions is wrong, the current pope has allowed Christians and Muslims stand and worship together.
The pope's including this one has come out and said that we can not have a personal relationship with God, and places their priest as mediator between us and God.
The bible says we can and are to build on a personal relationship with God our Father, and that we have only one mediator between us and God which is our Lord Jesus Christ. He is our only high priest now.
Deuteronomy 4:2
"You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
This means no man, not even the pope has the authority to change the words/commands He has already given us.
So if the bible which is made up of the Lord our Gods words say things are not acceptable, and man says they now are then they go against the Word.
Mixing religions is wrong, the current pope has allowed Christians and Muslims stand and worship together.
The pope's including this one has come out and said that we can not have a personal relationship with God, and places their priest as mediator between us and God.
The bible says we can and are to build on a personal relationship with God our Father, and that we have only one mediator between us and God which is our Lord Jesus Christ. He is our only high priest now.
Hardly. The Church is Christ. Christ established the Church, not the other way around. Christ gave His Gospel to the Church, entrusted it to the Church with the Holy Spirit's function to preserve both the Body and the Gospel.
The Church is the final authority because Christ is Head of that Church and the Body is also His which is guarded and preserved by the Holy Spirit. Have you read your Bible lately, or just your own myths?
In this discussion I am the only one that has NOT refused the authority of God's WORD AND SCRIPTURE.
You have substituted yours own authority and interpretation.
Receiving revelation is much different than saying gaining understanding. That is what every believer is supposed to do, apply it. What He has no authority over is changing the meaning of that Bible. A sola scripturist is NOT seeking understanding. He is seeking the meaning and he does this by establishing suppositions then proving them by proof texting and applying his own interpretation. One cannot rightly divide the WORD OF TRUTH, unless he first has that Truth. Sola scripturist is trying to find that truth so then he can rightly divide it. Every sola scripturist rightly divides his own truth. Just read Calvin's Institutes, or Smiths, Book of Mormon, and everyone in between including Hodge,Berghof, Erickson, Hendrickson, and many more. They all have their book of Truth and are rightly dividing them.
The Church is the final authority because Christ is Head of that Church and the Body is also His which is guarded and preserved by the Holy Spirit. Have you read your Bible lately, or just your own myths?
In this discussion I am the only one that has NOT refused the authority of God's WORD AND SCRIPTURE.
You have substituted yours own authority and interpretation.
Receiving revelation is much different than saying gaining understanding. That is what every believer is supposed to do, apply it. What He has no authority over is changing the meaning of that Bible. A sola scripturist is NOT seeking understanding. He is seeking the meaning and he does this by establishing suppositions then proving them by proof texting and applying his own interpretation. One cannot rightly divide the WORD OF TRUTH, unless he first has that Truth. Sola scripturist is trying to find that truth so then he can rightly divide it. Every sola scripturist rightly divides his own truth. Just read Calvin's Institutes, or Smiths, Book of Mormon, and everyone in between including Hodge,Berghof, Erickson, Hendrickson, and many more. They all have their book of Truth and are rightly dividing them.
I can understand your modern tolerance for all beliefs are equal, but Christ made membership very exclusive. No where does He ever say that there are many ways to Christ, there are many truths.
I also understand your modern concept of authority as well, You seem to have enlarged the American spirit of independence from any and all authority.
Now which gospel of the many available do you think does not conflict with the Word of God? Would it be Lutheranism, Calvinism, Armenianism, or any of many denominations, Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah Witnesses. How do you determine which gospel is that gospel of Truth?
I also understand your modern concept of authority as well, You seem to have enlarged the American spirit of independence from any and all authority.
Now which gospel of the many available do you think does not conflict with the Word of God? Would it be Lutheranism, Calvinism, Armenianism, or any of many denominations, Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah Witnesses. How do you determine which gospel is that gospel of Truth?
If you can prove the authority of scripture, I might reconsider. You can do something that no one else has done for 500 years so far. But have a go at it.
And Cassian you are the one "lumped" with the JW'S for they also blindly follow their "church" for interpretation. They also put their "church" ahead of the authority of Scripture.[/QUOTE] However, can they show evidence that their interpretation of scripture has always been believed from the beginning, by all everywhere? Has their church existed from the beginning? You can do the same thing for the Mormons, even the newest, the Revelation of the NEW Testament in 1991.
You should read more of those authoritative scriptures, you might have a chance of understanding it without your preconceived suppositions.
And Cassian you are the one "lumped" with the JW'S for they also blindly follow their "church" for interpretation. They also put their "church" ahead of the authority of Scripture.[/QUOTE] However, can they show evidence that their interpretation of scripture has always been believed from the beginning, by all everywhere? Has their church existed from the beginning? You can do the same thing for the Mormons, even the newest, the Revelation of the NEW Testament in 1991.
You should read more of those authoritative scriptures, you might have a chance of understanding it without your preconceived suppositions.
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J
It's an out of two sides of the mouth phenomenon. They're okay with a private interpretation, a complete misreading of scripture, to try and establish some apostolic lineage of Popes via Peter, not confessing Christ the Rock, then tell the rest of the world they can't do what they've done with scripture, that we can't even interpret holy scripture that interprets itself in the Bible. We shouldn't be allowed to have the gospel even a child can understand, the gospel freely preached by the true 1st century church of Jesus Christ and His apostles. Scripture only has authority to them, when it's twisted to serve the Roman cult. It's idiotic, asinine. And they'd have burned the apostles or Jesus Himself, for preaching the truth in the streets, prior to Catholicism being defanged.
K
The way to eternal life is narrow, because the only way to get there is through faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and keeping and following His teachings which is being a disciple.
If the denomination you are in teaches that then you are apart of His church, Christian church made up of all the believers in Him.
If the denomination you are in teaches that then you are apart of His church, Christian church made up of all the believers in Him.
J
The very clear gospel of the New Testament Bible, as understood under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, dwelling in all true believers who are born of the Spirit. God and His word, by His power, not man's.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
If you actually believed that statement would be great however.....
it does not answer the question. Luther would agree with you, Calvin, Knox. Wesley, Arminius, Darby, Schofield, Fox, Eddy, Hubbard, Campbell as well. But why are they all different? Which gospel is that True Gospel you spoke of?
The text is a nice proof text but it has no relevance to modern man. It is being directed at the disciples/apostles. Unless you are claiming to be a one of the original apostles.
So goes the authority of scripture.
it does not answer the question. Luther would agree with you, Calvin, Knox. Wesley, Arminius, Darby, Schofield, Fox, Eddy, Hubbard, Campbell as well. But why are they all different? Which gospel is that True Gospel you spoke of?
The text is a nice proof text but it has no relevance to modern man. It is being directed at the disciples/apostles. Unless you are claiming to be a one of the original apostles.
So goes the authority of scripture.
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J
Why don't you ask them? Non sequitur. Again, the gospel of Jesus Christ, by His authority, by His power, that New Testament gospel of the faith of Jesus Christ and His apostles is thorough to save and to, with the help of the Holy Spirit, provide all knowledge required for sanctification. You can throw around men's names until you're blue in the face, but this doesn't confuse the issue of that faith of the Bible that has saved and guides me, without the assistance of the perversions of men. If I can't clearly see what men say as true in scripture, that becomes their personal problem I'll not dwell upon. There are quack Protestants, too, nor do I correctly understand the entire Bible, this certain, but neither have I so little understanding to allegorize entire chunks of it away, thank the Lord the Holy Spirit serving me better than that grotesque error of the likes of Augustine.
Anyway, there are many ways you can change the subject, but sola scriptura works. You'd do yourselves much better, if you'd cease to claim the gospel of the Bible is not enough. Stop denying basic truths, and you may find some dialog with those who know better.
Anyway, there are many ways you can change the subject, but sola scriptura works. You'd do yourselves much better, if you'd cease to claim the gospel of the Bible is not enough. Stop denying basic truths, and you may find some dialog with those who know better.
The authority of Scripture is self-evident, just as the authority of God is self-evident.
He has revealed Himself through Christ, and Christ has revealed Himself to mankind through His Incarnation.
Christ revealed the Word of God to all those who heard, and continues to do so for all who have received the Holy Spirit.
The Word is sharper than a two-edged sword. Be careful to be the one wielding it, rather than fighting against it.
The Spirit of Christ inspired the Prophets and Apostles as they wrote the Scriptures, and the Spirit does not contradict itself. If a man claims to have been given revelation from God, yet it contradicts the Scriptures, then it is false.
If you deny "Sola Scriptura" as the basis of doctrine and instruction, then you must deny it's inspiration as a whole.
The Scriptures proclaim themselves as authoritative, so to deny their authority is to deny the whole. To deny the whole is to deny the Word, which is Christ, because Christ is the Word. It's very existence is the work of Christ.
There is nothing more to debate. Either you are a Believer, or you are an unbeliever.
A person cannot deny the work of Christ, while claiming to have faith in Him.
He has revealed Himself through Christ, and Christ has revealed Himself to mankind through His Incarnation.
Christ revealed the Word of God to all those who heard, and continues to do so for all who have received the Holy Spirit.
The Word is sharper than a two-edged sword. Be careful to be the one wielding it, rather than fighting against it.
The Spirit of Christ inspired the Prophets and Apostles as they wrote the Scriptures, and the Spirit does not contradict itself. If a man claims to have been given revelation from God, yet it contradicts the Scriptures, then it is false.
If you deny "Sola Scriptura" as the basis of doctrine and instruction, then you must deny it's inspiration as a whole.
The Scriptures proclaim themselves as authoritative, so to deny their authority is to deny the whole. To deny the whole is to deny the Word, which is Christ, because Christ is the Word. It's very existence is the work of Christ.
There is nothing more to debate. Either you are a Believer, or you are an unbeliever.
A person cannot deny the work of Christ, while claiming to have faith in Him.
all you have done is supported the authority of man over scripture. I know you don't care about these other men. They don't care about your interpretation either. It is why each of them, as you, have developed separate and independent gospels according to your best lights. You have shown nothing that gives evidence to your original statement.
and we are right back to your original statement. Who should I ask, you, Eddy, Smith, Luther, Calvin, who? They all differ, come diametrically the opposite of each other.
So what proof is there for the right Truth. They all use scripture, they all believe scripture is authoritative, and all of them claim it was of the Holy Spirit. Unique and you say it works, amazing.
and we are right back to your original statement. Who should I ask, you, Eddy, Smith, Luther, Calvin, who? They all differ, come diametrically the opposite of each other.
So what proof is there for the right Truth. They all use scripture, they all believe scripture is authoritative, and all of them claim it was of the Holy Spirit. Unique and you say it works, amazing.
so how do you determine false teachings? It is based solely on your personal interpretation?
just the opposite. In believing the scriptures as they were given is the opposite of sola scriptura where man has imposed his own interpretation over that of the Holy Spirit and a text.
Where does scripture proclaim they are authoritative? Sola scripturist are the one's denying the whole. They exclude the original meaning and impose their own. How do you think one can get hundreds of gospel all claiming to be given authoritatively by scripture?
so far I am the ONLY one that has accepted the authority of Christ, His revelation to man, and the specific promise of Christ that He will preserve His Body and the Gospel entrusted to it.
At this point you have imposed your own authority upon a text and are one of many who develop their own brand of religion.
I'm not a believer in your or any man's brand/interpretation of scripture.
just the opposite. In believing the scriptures as they were given is the opposite of sola scriptura where man has imposed his own interpretation over that of the Holy Spirit and a text.
Where does scripture proclaim they are authoritative? Sola scripturist are the one's denying the whole. They exclude the original meaning and impose their own. How do you think one can get hundreds of gospel all claiming to be given authoritatively by scripture?
so far I am the ONLY one that has accepted the authority of Christ, His revelation to man, and the specific promise of Christ that He will preserve His Body and the Gospel entrusted to it.
At this point you have imposed your own authority upon a text and are one of many who develop their own brand of religion.
I'm not a believer in your or any man's brand/interpretation of scripture.
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