Flood - worldwide or local?

[valiant]

Gen 7:17
And the flood was forty days upon the land; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the land.
Gen 7:18
And the waters prevailed, and increased greatly upon the land; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
Gen 7:19
And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the land; and all the high mountains that were under the whole heaven (as seen by Noah) were covered.
Gen 7:20
Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
Gen 7:21
And all flesh died that moved upon the land, both fowl, and cattle, and beast, and every creeping thing that creeps upon the land (known to Noah), and every man:

Nothing demands a worldwide flood.

 

[valiant]

True, but we still have to go by what the bible says, If god said he flooded the whole earth he did it,,

Actually is say that He flooded the whole eretz. Eretz means any habitable land. Abraham moved from Ur to the eretz.,

Seen? The bible does not ay the mountains that could be seen, it says the highest mountain on all the earth. mountains was covered.. not sure where you get this, can you show me?

Noah could not speak of mountains he knew nothing about.

and yes the earth is round, which helps prove a global flood

LOL How?

2 Peter 3: [SUP]5 [/SUP]For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, [SUP]6 [/SUP]by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. [SUP]7 [/SUP]But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Even Peter understood it to be global flood.

Have you asked him? LOL Peter only spoke of 'the ge' (land). he was quoting the OT.

Gen 7:17
And the flood was forty days upon the land; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lifted up above the land.
Gen 7:18
And the waters prevailed, and increased greatly upon the land; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
Gen 7:19
And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the land; and all the high mountains that were under the whole heaven (as seen by Noah) were covered.
Gen 7:20
Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
Gen 7:21
And all flesh died that moved upon the land, both fowl, and cattle, and beast, and every creeping thing that creeps upon the land (known to Noah), and every man:


Nothing demands a worldwide flood.

the bible is God breathed, God told him what to right,, It is called inspiration.

God used the language, he left us to interpret it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well I believe that when the dove came back and had a olive leaf, simply is saying not a whole world event, if I lived on a island my whole life and the whole island flooded, I would think that the whole world flooded because that island would be my whole world. Same in Noah times, the people in the region IMO were not world travelers, nothing implies in scripture they traveled the world by land and sea.

all that proves is what it said, The water receded, and there was now dry land.

Genesis 8:8
He also sent out from himself a dove, to see if the waters had receded from the face of the ground.


Genesis 8:9
But the dove found no resting place for the sole of her foot, and she returned into the ark to him, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth. So he put out his hand and took her, and drew her into the ark to himself.

Genesis 8:11
Then the dove came to him in the evening, and behold, a freshly plucked olive leaf was in her mouth; and Noah knew that the waters had receded from the earth.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Actually is say that He flooded the whole eretz. Eretz means any habitable land. Abraham moved from Ur to the eretz.,



Noah could not speak of mountains he knew nothing about.



LOL How?



Have you asked him? LOL Peter only spoke of 'the ge' (land). he was quoting the OT.

Gen 7:17
And the flood was forty days upon the land; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lifted up above the land.
Gen 7:18
And the waters prevailed, and increased greatly upon the land; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
Gen 7:19
And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the land; and all the high mountains that were under the whole heaven (as seen by Noah) were covered.
Gen 7:20
Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
Gen 7:21
And all flesh died that moved upon the land, both fowl, and cattle, and beast, and every creeping thing that creeps upon the land (known to Noah), and every man:


Nothing demands a worldwide flood.






God used the language, he left us to interpret it.

Valient must have been there, And knew at the time of the flood that there was land that was not inhabitable..

Nice try, but it does not convince me..

 

[valiant]

all that proves is what it said, The water receded, and there was now dry land.

Genesis 8:8
He also sent out from himself a dove, to see if the waters had receded from the face of the ground.


Genesis 8:9
But the dove found no resting place for the sole of her foot, and she returned into the ark to him, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth. So he put out his hand and took her, and drew her into the ark to himself.

Genesis 8:11
Then the dove came to him in the evening, and behold, a freshly plucked olive leaf was in her mouth; and Noah knew that the waters had receded from the earth.

and the olive tree had grown magically in a day?

 

[BeyondET]

all that proves is what it said, The water receded, and there was now dry land.

Genesis 8:8
He also sent out from himself a dove, to see if the waters had receded from the face of the ground.


Genesis 8:9
But the dove found no resting place for the sole of her foot, and she returned into the ark to him, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth. So he put out his hand and took her, and drew her into the ark to himself.

Genesis 8:11
Then the dove came to him in the evening, and behold, a freshly plucked olive leaf was in her mouth; and Noah knew that the waters had receded from the earth.

Doves have a range of 50 to 1500 miles and they have to be well trained to venture back to the place of orgin. Thus one way would be around 750 miles then 750 miles back returned to the ark.

http://http://www.dovesrus.co.uk/faq.htm

 

[valiant]

Valient must have been there, And knew at the time of the flood that there was land that was not inhabitable..

Its called common sense.

Nice try, but it does not convince me..

I never try to convince the blind, I am concerned to help those who can see

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Its called common sense.

Its called human wisdom.. And ASSUMING.

Nothing states the world before the flood is like it was today.. For all we know. All land was habitable (and it probably was.

I never try to convince the blind, I am concerned to help those who can see

thanks, you just reminded me of certain peoples arrogance when it comes to certain issues. who does nothign but attack..

so I will let you go.. And pray for you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Doves have a range of 50 to 1500 miles and they have to be well trained to venture back to the place of orgin. Thus one way would be around 750 miles then 750 miles back returned to the ark.

http://http://www.dovesrus.co.uk/faq.htm

I am sorry, I do nto see how this has any bearing on a dove who found a fig.. No one knows how far the dove had to travel nort would I want to try to speculate, Because that is all it would be..

I will just take God at his word.. (it is his inspired word, which means it is like him talking to us.

Genesis 8:11
Then the dove came to him in the evening, and behold, a freshly plucked olive leaf was in her mouth; and Noah knew that the waters had receded from the earth.

Not that the dove found land that was not ever flooded...

 

[garee]

I think the 15 cubits was the depth of the flood.

Some believe, which I hold to, that before the flood mountains and valleys did not have the differences they have to today.

In that way Noah's Flood didn't cover the Himalayas, it formed them, just as it formed the Grand Canyon.

There is an passage in Genesis that is I believe in general is overlooked, but holds what I believe to be key into our early world after the flood. Genesis 10:25 states

...“Two sons were born to Eber: One was named Peleg, because in his time the earth was divided”.

I believe this passage describes a time when God supernaturally separated the continents one from another. The Bible says that Peleg (which means divide) was born 100 years after the flood and lived for 239 years. The division is said to have taken place during his lifetime but does not say how long it took.

It would seem at that time the highest mountain was approx. 22 ½ feet.

Gen 7:20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

After six months of flooding and terrestrial deluge — according to Psalm 104:6–8 — the mountains were raised and the valleys lowered . Never again to destroy by flood.

You have set the earth firmly on its foundations, and it will never be moved.You placed the ocean over it like a robe,and the water covered the mountains. When you rebuked the waters, they fled they rushed away when they heard your shout of command. They flowed over the mountains and into the valleys,to the place you had made for them. You set a boundary they can never pass, to keep them from “covering” the earth again.

Because he promised a flood would not appear again, they are the boundaries we have today.

 

[trofimus]

From a planetary perspective, it was local.

From a civilization perspective, it was worlwide (people were living in one place in those days, not everywhere over the planet).

Datation - nobody knows, but certainly more than 15 000 years ago.

 

[valiant]

Its called human wisdom..

its what we have. God meant us to use it.

And ASSUMING.

assuming what?

Nothing states the world before the flood is like it was today.

you should note this carefully.

. For all we know. All land was habitable

but was it inhabited?

(and it probably was).

Actually it was probably NOT. Mankind was slowly expanding from the Near East.

thanks, you just reminded me of certain peoples arrogance when it comes to certain issues. who does nothign but attack..

EG??? looking in a mirror?

so I will let you go.. And pray for you.

Good.

 

[BeyondET]

I am sorry, I do nto see how this has any bearing on a dove who found a fig.. No one knows how far the dove had to travel nort would I want to try to speculate, Because that is all it would be..

I will just take God at his word.. (it is his inspired word, which means it is like him talking to us.

Genesis 8:11
Then the dove came to him in the evening, and behold, a freshly plucked olive leaf was in her mouth; and Noah knew that the waters had receded from the earth.

Not that the dove found land that was not ever flooded...

Is it safe to say that the dove didn't travel the whole earth to find dry land because Noah says he knew the waters receded once the dove came back from yet another venture out from the ark to find dry land.. reading up on doves keepers doves can't travel continuous over 1500 miles.

 

[BeyondET]

From a planetary perspective, it was local.

From a civilization perspective, it was worlwide (people were living in one place in those days, not everywhere over the planet).

Datation - nobody knows, but certainly more than 15 000 years ago.

Excellent prospective indeed, nothing says in scripture the whole earth was inhabited with people. Even today there's places on earth that no person lives even with a population of over 6 billion.

 

[BeyondET]

I am sorry, I do nto see how this has any bearing on a dove who found a fig.. No one knows how far the dove had to travel nort would I want to try to speculate, Because that is all it would be..

I will just take God at his word.. (it is his inspired word, which means it is like him talking to us.

Genesis 8:11
Then the dove came to him in the evening, and behold, a freshly plucked olive leaf was in her mouth; and Noah knew that the waters had receded from the earth.

Not that the dove found land that was not ever flooded...

There are dove keepers today, so in speculating in how far they can fly isn't a speculation, in reality these doves keepers know all about the dove flight patterns and habits.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There are dove keepers today, so in speculating in how far they can fly isn't a speculation, in reality these doves keepers know all about the dove flight patterns and habits.

1. dove keepers today were not there at the flood. (we assume things happen today as they have since creation I think Peter put it)

2. The flood does not say how far the dove traveled to find the stem.

so not sure again why it proves what you say it does.. It would seem it proves nothing, Unless God said, They traveled this far.

And again, I can only go by what the word says, It says it PROVED the waters receded from the land.. and that is WHY the dove found a vine. so it again makes me wonder, what point you are tryign to make it, I can't see it.

remember, the ark had no maneuvering, it went where the water took them, they could have been next to land when he released the dove, we have no idea how far away they were.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Is it safe to say that the dove didn't travel the whole earth to find dry land because Noah says he knew the waters receded once the dove came back from yet another venture out from the ark to find dry land.. reading up on doves keepers doves can't travel continuous over 1500 miles.

again, What does this prove? It does not prove the mountains 1500 miles away were not also covered with water.

That is the point i am trying to make.. You said this proves to you that it was a local flood. How? That was my question..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

From a planetary perspective, it was local.

From a civilization perspective, it was worlwide (people were living in one place in those days, not everywhere over the planet).

Datation - nobody knows, but certainly more than 15 000 years ago.

and this is proven how? or is it just speculation?

 

[BeyondET]

1. dove keepers today were not there at the flood. (we assume things happen today as they have since creation I think Peter put it)

2. The flood does not say how far the dove traveled to find the stem.

so not sure again why it proves what you say it does.. It would seem it proves nothing, Unless God said, They traveled this far.

And again, I can only go by what the word says, It says it PROVED the waters receded from the land.. and that is WHY the dove found a vine. so it again makes me wonder, what point you are tryign to make it, I can't see it.

remember, the ark had no maneuvering, it went where the water took them, they could have been next to land when he released the dove, we have no idea how far away they were.

Your correct in saying today's dove keepers weren't there but the Dove was there, so indeed dove keepers of today deal with the same dove that only could fly out at the most 1500 miles. The bible doesn't say the dove found a stem or a vine BUT it was a LEAF.

Just because the account in scripture does mentions a rudder per say, doesn't mean the ship didn't have one, scripture doesn't mentions Mars but it is there in our solar system.

 

[BeyondET]

again, What does this prove? It does not prove the mountains 1500 miles away were not also covered with water.

That is the point i am trying to make.. You said this proves to you that it was a local flood. How? That was my question..

As I mentioned The dove found a leaf, meaning it couldn't be a catotrophic flood that distroyed all vegetation on earth. the dove found a leaf a fresh one at that.