Free Will thread, Hiz and Blain
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Agree, but again if anyone is to be saved its because of an act of Gods grace not an act of me accepting Gods grace or not. Otherwise it my will that does the saving and it co operates with God. Gods grace is what saves and his grace ALONE!!! How do you know if Gods grace and spirit have been moving upon you? Because they produce the fruits of repentance and faith and you see the gospel NOW as beautiful and magnificent where as before you were blind to it.
I see clearly how both of you are viewing it.
NYSM sees that his blindness was cured and then, once it was and he could see that God WAS, what on earth would he DO but go to Him? This was how he experienced meeting God. God did it.
EG is trying to fit all of the verses together, including the ones that seem to say he is guilty of his own blindness, and I pray that God gives him the understanding of how to do this because even I can't fit them all together. The most I can say is that I was born blind and He healed my blindness but because of who's child I was before He healed me, I deserved death anyway.
I see how both of you view it. I view it more as NYSM does because that was my experience also. I didn't debate and make a choice. I just suddenly saw what the truth was. But I do see the tension between some verses and others. And I do want them to fit together in my understanding rather than just ignoring the ones that seem to war with my understanding.
NYSM sees that his blindness was cured and then, once it was and he could see that God WAS, what on earth would he DO but go to Him? This was how he experienced meeting God. God did it.
EG is trying to fit all of the verses together, including the ones that seem to say he is guilty of his own blindness, and I pray that God gives him the understanding of how to do this because even I can't fit them all together. The most I can say is that I was born blind and He healed my blindness but because of who's child I was before He healed me, I deserved death anyway.
I see how both of you view it. I view it more as NYSM does because that was my experience also. I didn't debate and make a choice. I just suddenly saw what the truth was. But I do see the tension between some verses and others. And I do want them to fit together in my understanding rather than just ignoring the ones that seem to war with my understanding.
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No, Because that makes gods word null and void. it says we are saved by faith, It says we are saved when we hear the word of truth, and then believe, It says we were given the right to be called children of God, because we had faith.
To say I do don't accept. But just God chose me, puts Gods whole character in question. How can he be called a God of love4, if he does not love all the same way..
I disagree,
it is Gods will. It was Gods will that all who chose to have faith in God will be saved, That IS GODS WILL.
It is Gods will that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved
It is Gods will that whoever believes in his name will have eternal life
It is Gods will that whoever hears the word, and has faith is sealed with the HOLY SPIRIT
It is Gods will that whoever believes in him are given the right to be called children of God.
It was Gods will that all who believed in him would never be cast out. Have eternal life. Live forever. Receive eternal life and be raised by him, What separated the ones who received these things and those who did not. Were those who did not believe. (Who he believed in not condemned, But whoever does not believe is condemned already, because they have not believe4d.
It is Gods grace and grace alone, Grace THROUGH THE MEANS OF FAITH.
God does not force his salvation on anyone, And he does not keep anyone from having their ability to be saved, he is a fair and equal God. All are under Adam, so all have the ability to be under Christ, He does for all. because he loved all.
But he wants you to desire his grace,, That is what a loving person does.. It is called a relationship.
My having faith is not a work of my own, why? It is based solely and completely on the work of God.
I am on my knees saying God save me, I am a sinner, have mercy on me God. That is who goes to heaven justified.. Why? Because
1. God offered him grace
2. He received it.
No, Because that makes gods word null and void. it says we are saved by faith, It says we are saved when we hear the word of truth, and then believe, It says we were given the right to be called children of God, because we had faith.
To say I do don't accept. But just God chose me, puts Gods whole character in question. How can he be called a God of love4, if he does not love all the same way..
I disagree,
it is Gods will. It was Gods will that all who chose to have faith in God will be saved, That IS GODS WILL.
It is Gods will that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved
It is Gods will that whoever believes in his name will have eternal life
It is Gods will that whoever hears the word, and has faith is sealed with the HOLY SPIRIT
It is Gods will that whoever believes in him are given the right to be called children of God.
It was Gods will that all who believed in him would never be cast out. Have eternal life. Live forever. Receive eternal life and be raised by him, What separated the ones who received these things and those who did not. Were those who did not believe. (Who he believed in not condemned, But whoever does not believe is condemned already, because they have not believe4d.
It is Gods grace and grace alone, Grace THROUGH THE MEANS OF FAITH.
God does not force his salvation on anyone, And he does not keep anyone from having their ability to be saved, he is a fair and equal God. All are under Adam, so all have the ability to be under Christ, He does for all. because he loved all.
But he wants you to desire his grace,, That is what a loving person does.. It is called a relationship.
My having faith is not a work of my own, why? It is based solely and completely on the work of God.
I am on my knees saying God save me, I am a sinner, have mercy on me God. That is who goes to heaven justified.. Why? Because
1. God offered him grace
2. He received it.
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It goes to the character of God.
I was born dead. When I finally realized how dead I was (and the fact I was dead) I become open to Gods word. I asked him to show me, he did, I repented and was saved
by the way, Gods word does fit nicely. I see it.. I am not perfect. But when it comes to the gospel. And how one is saved, and why we need saved, The whole off the word is clear. .
But the faith was a gift from God. You didn't decide to have that faith, He gave you that faith.
We are saved through faith and that faith is not our own doing so no man can boast that it was his own doing.
I know this creates a struggle because I've had the same struggle, with many tears over why He saved me but others have not been saved. But I determined that the answer is not to blame blind men. I don't blame God either. I just can pray for them that He heal their blindness as He did mine. I can't take credit for my faith just because it breaks my heart to see that some men are still blind and say it's their fault to make me feel better.
That's how I see it. I'd rather just accept the heartbreak than to take credit for my faith as if it wasn't a great gift that all began by my blindness being healed.
So again i ask the question, how did you realize how dead you were?? Did you do something to realize that. How did you open your eyes to realize how sinful you are? How did you understand the gospel? The answer to all these questions is simple. By GODS GRACE! To think that you did it on your own and then you became open to Gods word is absurd given the fact that men are lovers of darkness rather than light. You think that you can see your sinfulness for what it is and then reject grace. if you reject grace its because you havent seen your true state and your need for him.
I agree with in large with what your saying but your not consistent in the topic at hand. The question isn't did you choose to receive Christ or not. The question is WHY??? and what possible REASON WOULD YOU CHOOSE CHRIST? Im saying the reason to choose God is not rooted in my free-will. The reason to choose God is rooted in God himself, not me. Why did you choose Christ not if you can choose Christ.
If every man in the world was born with only one eye and one ear, they would think they were whole and perfect. If another man came upon them who had two eyes and two ears, they would think he was deformed.
You were born dead and didn't even know it. How COULD you know it when this is how every man on earth is? How is it that you DID come to know it? Someone had to show you that you were dead and blind. If someone had not shown you that you were blind, you would still be blind. So how can you blame another man or say he is just willfully being blind when he was born that way just as you were?
This is why: we are saved by the kindness of God through faith, and that faith is not our own but is a gift, so no one can boast about this faith.
Took the words right out of my mouth. lol I guess mine is how do you choose something you so naturally abhor? If it is true that are spiritually dead and blind and deaf and sinful. If it is true that we are lovers of darkness rather than light. If it is true that we do not seek God (romans3) we do not want God in our minds and want God at all. If it is true that we are enslaved to the bondage's of sin and the lusts of our flesh. Then it all boils down to one simple question. How can we ever choose Christ when its clear that we dont want Christ at all? Something must change the disposition of our hearts BEFORE we could ever repond to him.
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Again we see it different.
It is MY FAITH. It is GODS WORK. I could not have any faith if God did not do the work. But I must chose to trust God.
saying it is my faith, is not saying I am saving myself.
I am saved by my faith NOT my work.. That is the difference, Faith is not a work..
And take credit for my faith? I have to lol at that. Not to mock you or attack you. But just how it sounds.'
Imagine a man in the middle of the ocean, Who could only be saved if another man or men risk their own life to save him, In fact, he could not even help to save himself. He had to admit he could do nothing, not even help the rescuers. Otherwise, he would be lost..
Now imagine that same man a week later.. People ask him, How did he get saved, The man went around boasting, I HADS FAITH, I HAD FAITH.
No. He would boast in the men who risked their lives to see him, Not his faith. His faith was an afterth0ught, it was the men who saved him, He just had to LET THEM.
I let God saved me, because I had no hope. I trusted him, I can not boast of my faith. I can only boast of Gods work.. He saved me
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Again, If I am unsaved, it is because I did not believe, I rejected Gods gift. Gods grace is still available. Until the day I die.
Those who are condemned are condemned because of lack of faith. What did Jesus say in Johm 6? You have seen and not believed.
Do your trust God or do you trust yourself(unbelief in God) . Those are the two options..
God did not chose to save me, and not chose to save someone else based solely on the fact he opened my eyes, and kept theirs closed. That would go against everything the bible says about him, his character and his love.
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Romans 1.. If you think you did no know you were dead. You are deceived or your have hidden that fact because you loved you sin, even the heathen that they have sinned against GOD and are rightly judged because of it. When they stand in front of God. The excuse (I did not know I was dead) is not going to fly. Paul said, they have knowledge, they hid the knowledge and made idols into Gods..
@Stunnedbygrace I'll tell the world I have faith, not to brag..... because I can then tell them Who gave it to me.
I have faith to decide & believe because: God gave me the faith, & the Holy Spirit convicted me of my sins, then showed me to repent & accept Jesus as my LORD & Savior.
I'll believe I can do almost anything, as long as the scriptures say so. Let God be true & every man a liar.
I'm supposed to believe I can do what the Bible says, because the 'how" part is left up to God. Eph 4 says I'm created in Christ Jesus to do good works, that I should walk in them. That's enough.
He who sends, equips..... I'm to expect that, if it's true.
I'm able to do without and do with, because scripture says I can do all things thru Christ who strengthens me.
But if I don't do anything that I've said, then I can't prove God gave me faith, I cant prove God created me for good, I can't glorify God in my body .....I can't even show the world Jesus saves, because faith without works is dead. When faith is not proved, neither is grace, because it was God's favor that allowed me to have faith, It was God's favor that allowed me supernatural strength to do good works, it's God's favor that shows Christ in me IS my hope, & other's hope, of glory.
Colossians 1:27
I have faith to decide & believe because: God gave me the faith, & the Holy Spirit convicted me of my sins, then showed me to repent & accept Jesus as my LORD & Savior.
I'll believe I can do almost anything, as long as the scriptures say so. Let God be true & every man a liar.
I'm supposed to believe I can do what the Bible says, because the 'how" part is left up to God. Eph 4 says I'm created in Christ Jesus to do good works, that I should walk in them. That's enough.
He who sends, equips..... I'm to expect that, if it's true.
I'm able to do without and do with, because scripture says I can do all things thru Christ who strengthens me.
But if I don't do anything that I've said, then I can't prove God gave me faith, I cant prove God created me for good, I can't glorify God in my body .....I can't even show the world Jesus saves, because faith without works is dead. When faith is not proved, neither is grace, because it was God's favor that allowed me to have faith, It was God's favor that allowed me supernatural strength to do good works, it's God's favor that shows Christ in me IS my hope, & other's hope, of glory.
Colossians 1:27
“To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:”
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What I know is that at some point I laid down my opposition to God. He had revealed Himself to me in a number of ways over a period of years, ways that my natural mind (in opposition to Him) tried to rationalize away, that would allow me to do anything but to accept that the God I had been running from was the God that was revealing Himself to me. I realized I had been trying to define God in ways that were acceptable to me while refusing to define myself in ways that were acceptable to Him. By the time someone explained to me Who Jesus Christ was, and I started going to church twelve years ago, I was moving away from my opposition. I entered the Alpha course, and it was while I was attending that, that I realized, I do not need any more convincing. I had become convinced, and I began to pursue my new found faith with fervor. 
we can be taught about Jesus and His ways, told what He expects of us by those who
already Love Him, those who have been converted and blessed by the indwelling of
the Holy Spirit...we can be taught that we are to obey and follow His rules, else we
very well may end-up in jail...but, we each come to Christ as He wills, as He gives
different portions of Faith at different times/ways...I started to fall in Love with Jesus
as a young child living in the midst of a 'horror-movie', now how did that happen?
someone may ask, well, it was because I was born in sin, but was appointed as
a child of The Light long before I was born...I accept this because of what I have
seen and learned while living in this fallen-world and how the people of this world
love darkness and self-love and crave only what the world offers which are mostly
instruments of self-gratification...yes, I accept that I am a chosen, called, elect, child
of God, how can I believe any other way after He opened my heart and placed His Love
for me inside? we are required to become living Testimonies for Him from the point of our
conversion, it's a day-to-day process, and one that will, I pray, forever keep us on His path
of Love, Righteousness and Truth, until the day that the door opens to God's Holy Realm, where
He waits for us with open arms...
1COR. 1:1-2-3.
Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints,
with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
EPH. 2:10.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained
that we should walk in them.
PS. 132:17.
There will I make the horn of David to bud: I have ordained a Lamp for Mine anointed.
already Love Him, those who have been converted and blessed by the indwelling of
the Holy Spirit...we can be taught that we are to obey and follow His rules, else we
very well may end-up in jail...but, we each come to Christ as He wills, as He gives
different portions of Faith at different times/ways...I started to fall in Love with Jesus
as a young child living in the midst of a 'horror-movie', now how did that happen?
someone may ask, well, it was because I was born in sin, but was appointed as
a child of The Light long before I was born...I accept this because of what I have
seen and learned while living in this fallen-world and how the people of this world
love darkness and self-love and crave only what the world offers which are mostly
instruments of self-gratification...yes, I accept that I am a chosen, called, elect, child
of God, how can I believe any other way after He opened my heart and placed His Love
for me inside? we are required to become living Testimonies for Him from the point of our
conversion, it's a day-to-day process, and one that will, I pray, forever keep us on His path
of Love, Righteousness and Truth, until the day that the door opens to God's Holy Realm, where
He waits for us with open arms...
1COR. 1:1-2-3.
Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints,
with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
EPH. 2:10.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained
that we should walk in them.
PS. 132:17.
There will I make the horn of David to bud: I have ordained a Lamp for Mine anointed.
So how do you interpret, or see, this verse, in your own words:
We are saved by grace, through faith, and that faith is not our own, it is a gift.
That's my paraphrase of the verse, if I was going to explain how I see it to another person.
How would you paraphrase it to reflect your understanding of it?
We are saved by grace, through faith, and that faith is not our own, it is a gift.
That's my paraphrase of the verse, if I was going to explain how I see it to another person.
How would you paraphrase it to reflect your understanding of it?
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For by Grace I have been saved (past tense) through the means of faith, And not of anything I did on my own (work), it (Salvation) was a gift of God. It was not by the means of works that I was saved, Otherwise, I could take credit for Saving myself.
I do not see where you get that term that faith is not of my own, I do not see it in the passage.
Faith is not a work.. So we can not boast of having faith, unless our faith is in our own works (the Pharisees we're proud, because they had faith their works made them acceptable to God. I can not boast, because my faith is solely on the work of God, and not anything I did of myself)