Free Will thread, Hiz and Blain

[Stunnedbygrace]

For by Grace I have been saved (past tense) through the means of faith, And not of anything I did on my own (work), it (Salvation) was a gift of God. It was not by the means of works that I was saved, Otherwise, I could take credit for Saving myself.

I do not see where you get that term that faith is not of my own, I do not see it in the passage.

Faith is not a work.. So we can not boast of having faith, unless our faith is in our own works (the Pharisees we're proud, because they had faith their works made them acceptable to God. I can not boast, because my faith is solely on the work of God, and not anything I did of myself)

So saved by grace through faith, and that not of yourself...means the grace was Gods' but the faith was yours. How do you determine which of the two things mentioned (grace and faith) are being referred to by the phrase "not of yourself"?
How do you come to the conclusion that "and that not of yourself" only applies to the grace, but not to the faith?

If this is annoying to you, we can drop it.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

And maybe these verses will help you to see how I view it.

Before the coming of faith, we were in custody under the law, until the faith that was to come would be revealed.

And the one where the apostle says: I am reminded of the sincere faith of your mom and grandma and I'm convinced that faith also now lives in you.

And this one: He is the author and finisher of our faith.

I guess I could understand if someone thought the faith was in them but was inaccessible somehow until God cured their blindness and gave them sight...I wonder if others read our conversation and think it's ridiculous, even though I know that in our hearts it isn't ridiculous.

 

[Magenta]

Faith is a gift of God

 

[oldethennew]

AMEN, Mageta,

One of many the many GIFTS that we receive from our Master as He wills
and at His time, as you so well know...

 

[Magenta]

Life itself is a gift, yes, everything we have, comes from the boundless goodness
and grace of our Father in heaven. Talking as a new believer to atheists and
various other non-believers, it was this knowledge that lent itself to my being
able to say to them, why would God give you more life, when you refuse to
acknowledge that He gave you life in the first place? They would moan about
how unfair it is that they had to submit to Him to receive the gifts He offers!
They wanted to go to heaven and snub their nose at Him at the same time.
They saw nothing illogical or irrational in their approach or attitude

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Faith is a gift of God

I agree. I am trying to get at why EG thinks it wasn't a gift but that he was born with it apart from the Spirit.
I think it's because it is threatening something else that he believes.
The closest I have been able to get to it is that he thinks...if faith is a gift of God, then...every man is not able to be saved...?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So saved by grace through faith, and that not of yourself...means the grace was Gods' but the faith was yours. How do you determine which of the two things mentioned (grace and faith) are being referred to by the phrase "not of yourself"?
How do you come to the conclusion that "and that not of yourself" only applies to the grace, but not to the faith?

If this is annoying to you, we can drop it.

So God had faith in himself . And because of that, I am saved?

I am not trying t0 be mean sis, but can you not see how silly that sounds?

It is my faith, I TRUST GOD TO SAVE ME..

Of myself, means I did not do anything to save myself. It is talking about works. Not faith.

Again, Faith is not a work.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And maybe these verses will help you to see how I view it.

Before the coming of faith, we were in custody under the law, until the faith that was to come would be revealed.

And the one where the apostle says: I am reminded of the sincere faith of your mom and grandma and I'm convinced that faith also now lives in you.

And this one: He is the author and finisher of our faith.

I guess I could understand if someone thought the faith was in them but was inaccessible somehow until God cured their blindness and gave them sight...I wonder if others read our conversation and think it's ridiculous, even though I know that in our hearts it isn't ridiculous.

why was we in custody of the law. Because the work of CHrist was not yet complete. So we needed to be led to Christ, so when he came, We could have faith in his work. Until then, I could have faith in the law. Or faith in myself. That I am ok and do not need God.. But not faith in Christ (although the OT believers had faith in God) that is what saved them,,

If the law can not lead me to Christ where I trust him, then the law has no use.

 

[Magenta]

If I were God I would trust myself and not any man

Speaking of which, did God know Adam was going to disobey?

And so, because of one man's sin, the second Adam was purposed
from before the creation of the world. Praise God! For we are reconciled
back to God through faith in the righteous blood of our Lord and King.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

So God had faith in himself . And because of that, I am saved?

I am not trying t0 be mean sis, but can you not see how silly that sounds?

It is my faith, I TRUST GOD TO SAVE ME..

Of myself, means I did not do anything to save myself. It is talking about works. Not faith.

Again, Faith is not a work.

No...I don't see that God had faith in Himself. I see that by His kindness, he saved me, through the faith which He gave me in Him...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Faith is a gift of God.. God did the work.

Abraham believed God and it was accredited to him as righteousness.

It was Abrahams faith, He trusted in the work of God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No...I don't see that God had faith in Himself. I see that by His kindness, he saved me, through the faith which He gave me in Him...

So he forced you to have faith, and withheld faith from others?
.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If I were God I would trust myself and not any man

Speaking of which, did God know Adam was going to disobey?

And so, because of one man's sin, the second Adam was purposed
from before the creation of the world. Praise God! For we are reconciled
back to God through faith in the righteous blood of our Lord and King.

yes he did, And that's why, before the foundation of the world. His plan was to do what he did, so all who trust in him will have eternal life.

 

[Magenta]

So he forced you to have faith, and withheld faith from others?
.

Does He not knock on the doors to our hearts? Surely He knows when we are ready to accept the gifts He offers? Some people are quite entrenched in their adverse attitude to God. They have hardened their hearts to a degree that I fear for their very souls, for the god of this world has blinded them, and their pride of life rules them.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

So he forced you to have faith, and withheld faith from others?
.

No...that's not how I see it. I see that He gave me the gift of sight and faith in Him. I don't think He forced a gift on me...I think He gave me a gift. I'm so grateful for it that I marvel often over how it was even possible to live so many years without knowing Him! But I think His timing is perfect and He knows the exact moment that each of us is ready for love.

I think it would be best to drop it maybe. If we become impatient with each other instead of enjoying our talks, we should take a break from the topic and return to it later. Let's talk about something else.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Does He not knock on the doors to our hearts? Surely He knows when we are ready to accept the gifts He offers? Some people are quite entrenched in their adverse attitude to God. They have hardened their hearts to a degree that I fear for their very souls, for the god of this world has blinded them, and their pride of life rules them.

I agree,, and that is what Romans 1 speaks of..

The part I do not like is if God does not open your mind, then you are lost forever.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No...that's not how I see it. I see that He gave me the gift of sight and faith in Him. I don't think He forced a gift on me...I think He gave me a gift. I'm so grateful for it that I marvel often over how it was even possible to live so many years without knowing Him! But I think His timing is perfect and He knows the exact moment that each of us is ready for love.

I think it would be best to drop it maybe. If we become impatient with each other instead of enjoying our talks, we should take a break from the topic and return to it later. Let's talk about something else.

I am just trying to get you to see what I see.

That is why I am talking the way I am.

Your saying God gave you faith, so you get to go to heaven, But if God did not open your eyes, your would be lost forever. Even if you do not mean to say it, that is what must be assumed

 

[oldethennew]

eg,

it seems as if you are going in circles...Jesus' Love and gifts are not to be in debate here,
we must respect other's point of view for where they are and what they have experienced, which
will most likely always be different than our very own...

it's never to be a defense or fight of who is right or who is wrong, but to discern who LOVES our Saviour,
no matter how they have arrived at this blessed life-time event...

for us, we always take great joy in the precious fact that others Love and Respect their
heavenly Father, this always takes precedence above all else and we would always choose
to rejoice in our shared LOVE than to argue in our own defense of what we have experienced
or believe as we grow and run our race...

 

[Magenta]

Does He not knock on the doors to our hearts? Surely He knows when we are ready to accept the gifts He offers? Some people are quite entrenched in their adverse attitude to God. They have hardened their hearts to a degree that I fear for their very souls, for the god of this world has blinded them, and their pride of life rules them.

I was in such a condition, not being an atheist and not even an agnostic, but firmly set against God still the same, all the more so for my strict Roman Catholic upbringing, and having felt I was lied to, thinking, surely there is something, but it is not that. And when my life was endangered, yeah, even my very soul put at risk, God intervened, first, showing me His all encompassing love and forgiveness when I was at the lowest point of my life, at the end of myself, broken, and then, many years later, His desire for me to put down the spiritual pursuits that were taking me away from Him, and perhaps would have removed me from His presence forever. My experiences were such that Scripture only could account for them, and the answers that others offered aside from that, though previously aligned with my own mindset, no longer sufficed.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I am just trying to get you to see what I see.

That is why I am talking the way I am.

Your saying God gave you faith, so you get to go to heaven, But if God did not open your eyes, your would be lost forever. Even if you do not mean to say it, that is what must be assumed

That is what I mean to say. It doesn't have to be assumed, it's totally what I mean to say. I know it bothers you that if God doesn't do something to heal a mans blindness then a man is lost forever and will remain blind forever. But I know that I was blind and would still be blind if He hadn't let me see His Son. But it pleased Him to show His son to me. I once was blind but now I see. I have to just trust Him to know what He is doing with every other man.

I heard what people call locutions one time in my life. I was driving and I was overcome by such sorrow for my mom that she didn't know God and hadn't met Him. I was in a terrible state and was sobbing so hard that I couldn't even see the road. I was getting ready to pull over when I heard 4 words. They came from outside my left ear and I felt breath on my ear as they were spoken. I have never heard any other words like this - physically heard with my physical ear. The words were: Do you trust Me?
Before I even had time to marvel over what had just happened, I said, of course I trust You, Lord. And I have been kept in peace since then. Even when I pray for Him to save someone who is near death, I have never lost that peace or been tempted to such fear and lack of trust again. I deeply feel, but don't panic, and just continue to trust Him with everyone. It also helps to remember that I don't know what happens on anyones death bed. He is not willing for anyone to perish so I would imagine He saves many men as He did the thief on the cross. I am willing to feel the pain of someone not knowing Him and to not know why He has saved me but not them yet. It's my Lords' very own pain and love I am feeling for another. I accept the pain and refuse to take any credit for my being saved by saying that they have chosen their blindness and I chose not to be blind. Yes, it would alleviate my pain if I could blame them and say it's their own fault, but I won't do it just to alleviate my pain.

I think you have a tender heart in this and God sees your heart. I don't think it is pride that causes you to blame a man for his blindness. I think it is deep pain and love. So He sees your heart.