Free Will thread, Hiz and Blain

[PinkDiamond]

I guess it's just in how you view it. I see that it can be viewed two different ways, and yet both people can be walking in the Spirit. It bothers me to say that there was something I was born with, called free will, that enabled me to salvation, because if it enabled me to salvation, then there was something good in me before my birth in Spirit. So from what I gather, that makes me calinistic.

But, if we have a free will that makes our sin so much worse. If we sin because we voluntarily choose to disobey God that makes us much more culpable than if we sin only because of a depraved nature. I believe we have a fallen nature and tendency to sin, but we still act on temptation.

See it it all depends on how we look at this. Don't worry, we are bad either way

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I still do not see it, Why does it have to be something good in you to have free will and trust God?

When you need to admit there is NOTHING good in you to repent and trust God.

it seems the opposite. To me, someone who thinks there can be good in me that would never freely chose to repent and have faith in God.

I want to hug you!
I can't accept it because then I have to say: by my own free will, which I was born with, I chose to not be blind any more and to instead choose to believe. You, however, by your own free will that you were born with, chose to be blind and not believe. I made a good choice and you made a bad choice. I used my free will in a good way and you used your free will in a bad way and because of that, you are going to hell and I am going to heaven.

But that"s not how it happened with me. I read the gospels and suddenly just saw that God existed even though I never saw it before. I didn't choose to believe, I just suddenly saw it was the truth. And when you know something is the truth, you aren't choosing to believe it's the truth, you just SEE that it's the truth. In one day, I went from not seeing to seeing. I went from being blind to not being blind. I didn't just say, I choose to not be blind with my own free will. So it would be dishonest and awful for me to blame someone else for their blindness and say I chose to see and they chose to be blind. I didn't choose to see. I was made able to see somehow and it wasn't by my own choice. And there was no possible reaction for me other than to fall into a blubbering heap and just keep saying: I'm so sorry, I didn't see. I'm so sorry.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I want to hug you!
I can't accept it because then I have to say: by my own free will, which I was born with, I chose to not be blind any more and to instead choose to believe. You, however, by your own free will that you were born with, chose to be blind and not believe. I made a good choice and you made a bad choice. I used my free will in a good way and you used your free will in a bad way and because of that, you are going to hell and I am going to heaven.

But that"s not how it happened with me. I read the gospels and suddenly just saw that God existed even though I never saw it before. I didn't choose to believe, I just suddenly saw it was the truth. And when you know something is the truth, you aren't choosing to believe it's the truth, you just SEE that it's the truth. In one day, I went from not seeing to seeing. I went from being blind to not being blind. I didn't just say, I choose to not be blind with my own free will. So it would be dishonest and awful for me to blame someone else for their blindness and say I chose to see and they chose to be blind. I didn't choose to see. I was made able to see somehow and it wasn't by my own choice. And there was no possible reaction for me other than to fall into a blubbering heap and just keep saying: I'm so sorry, I didn't see. I'm so sorry.

You chose not to be blind anymore? Now I am really confused. lol, please, forgive me..

No one is blind but those who blinded themselves IN UNBELIEF (see john 6 and romans 1)

People who go to hell will go to hell because they "Knew God, Knew that the things they are doing were worthy of death yet did them anyway, and are thus without excuse (romans 1) yet rejected the conviction of the HS, WHo was sent to teach the world of sin righteousness and judgment.

You did not just come to God. You studied, if you had no desire to know god you never would have been reading that bible.. The HS convicted you. And you positively went to it, and he explained it to you..

You still had to chose to say yes God, I want your gift, Or no God. I do not..

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

You chose not to be blind anymore? Now I am really confused. lol, please, forgive me..

No one is blind but those who blinded themselves IN UNBELIEF (see john 6 and romans 1)

People who go to hell will go to hell because they "Knew God, Knew that the things they are doing were worthy of death yet did them anyway, and are thus without excuse (romans 1) yet rejected the conviction of the HS, WHo was sent to teach the world of sin righteousness and judgment.

You did not just come to God. You studied, if you had no desire to know god you never would have been reading that bible.. The HS convicted you. And you positively went to it, and he explained it to you..

You still had to chose to say yes God, I want your gift, Or no God. I do not..

I don't think I chose to blind myself. I think I was born blind. How else could I explain being able to suddenly see one day when I couldn't see for over 42 years?
Good night. I'll come back tomorrow afternoon to see what else you guys have to say! I love talking with you EG!

 

[nowyouseem033]

Well i think its absurd that we subscribe to humanity this idea called 'free-will', when the bible terms our humanity sinful and enslaved to the bondages of sin. I do not deny we have a will, but that will is to seek its own desires and its own pleasures ultimately.
The bible does NOT give us an EXPLICIT text regarding free-will but it does give us and show us that we do indeed have a will. Anytime we are confronted with texts from the scriptures that impose upon us 'to choose' it does so never devoid from the power of grace and Gods strength which enables us to choose.
So therefore i conclude that the only and truly free person is a person who is found in Christ for it is them that truly have free will.

Sinful humanity are enslaved to there desires and sinfulness, and will never ever come to God UNLESS God firsts enlightens there dark hearts and regenerates them to life. Only then will they be able to see the beauty of the gospel and the majesty of God at its highest.

Freedom is not i get to do whatever i want. That is slavery. Freedom is i can now do what God wants. Where the spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom and liberty.

 

[nowyouseem033]

Btw it is hard to accept this truth because it goes against our humanistic tendency and notions. When i came to understand the true condition of the human will biblically, i came to find out that humanity is not in a state of neutrality. That is to say they choose to do good or evil but are neither until that happens. Rather they are evil and in the kingdom of darkness and any good that is done is done for the glory of self not for the glory of God.
I did not choose Christ but Christ chose me. I recieved Christ but only because Christ recieved me. Up until that time i was ENSLAVED to the desires of my will and its ultimate statement was "I get to do whatever i want"

 

[John146]

I did not choose Christ but Christ chose me. I recieved Christ but only because Christ recieved me. Up until that time i was ENSLAVED to the desires of my will and its ultimate statement was "I get to do whatever i want"

God actually chose the whole world to save. Only those who believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ will be saved.

Romans 321 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

The righteousness of God through Jesus Christ is unto all, everyone. But, the righteousness of God is upon them that believe. The faith of Jesus Christ is imputed to those that believe. If God chose me to believe, it wouldn't be belief. Forced belief is not belief. If I had no choice in the matter, then it's not belief.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Btw it is hard to accept this truth because it goes against our humanistic tendency and notions. When i came to understand the true condition of the human will biblically, i came to find out that humanity is not in a state of neutrality. That is to say they choose to do good or evil but are neither until that happens. Rather they are evil and in the kingdom of darkness and any good that is done is done for the glory of self not for the glory of God.
I did not choose Christ but Christ chose me. I recieved Christ but only because Christ recieved me. Up until that time i was ENSLAVED to the desires of my will and its ultimate statement was "I get to do whatever i want"

I find it hard to accept not because it goes against my but because it says God only allows certain people to come to faith, and come to truth, The rest, he does not even give the possibility.

I can not do good in my human state, this we agree, But realizing your sinfulness (which paul said in romans 1 you already know) Realizing your just condemnation because of your sin (again Romans 1) and realising who God is, and his offer of salvation, is not a good act. it is not even a righteous act, It is a state of hittingn rock bottom and comming to your end, Of being like the tax collector. who got on his knees.

God did not give the Tax collector the ability to have faith, while refusing to give the pharisee the same ability. He died for both of them.

The only difference is, when the HS came to onvict of sin righteousness and judgment, The tax collector said yes, The pharisee said no.

There will be no excuse in heaven, because everyone had the ability and knowledge to be saved, they CHOSE to reject it.

 

[Grace777x70]

This is what I believe and thank God for doing in my life. I am joined as one spirit with the Lord Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit within me. I am sure His love will compel me to be who I really am in Him.

Philippians 1:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't think I chose to blind myself. I think I was born blind. How else could I explain being able to suddenly see one day when I couldn't see for over 42 years?
Good night. I'll come back tomorrow afternoon to see what else you guys have to say! I love talking with you EG!

Like all of us, You studied, and all of a sudden the light came on. It happened to me in school When I struggled with a subject. Then all of a sudden it was like the lights came on and I understood..

 

[Stephen63]

We all have free will even before we are saved. When I was a kid In was told not eat the crayon as I was curious as to what it tasted like now pause here and consider what is going on in my mind. I was told not to eat to it I could have chosen to listen but my curiosity got the best of me and I took a bit only to spit it out in disgust.

NOW we know what happened to Blain.....OD'ed on crayons.

 

[Stephen63]

Free will before the Law:

Genesis 2:17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Genesis 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Free will under the Law:

14“Now, therefore, fear the LORD and serve Him in sincerity and truth; and put away the gods which your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. 15“If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

Free will under the New Covenant:

Mark 8:34
“And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me,

1. let him deny himself, and
2. take up his cross,
3. and follow me.”

​3 choices.

Revelation 3:20
“Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.”

2 Timothy 2
And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Then there's the "WHOSOEVER" scriptures:

John 3:15
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
John 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
John 12:46
I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
Acts 2:21
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Acts 10:43
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Romans 9:33
As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Romans 10:11
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
1 John 2:23
Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
1 John 4:15
Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
1 John 5:1
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
Revelation 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

• Refrain:
  “Whosoever” surely meaneth me,
  Surely meaneth me, oh, surely meaneth me;
  “Whosoever” surely meaneth me,
  “Whosoever” meaneth me.

AMEN!

 

[Magenta]

The "WHOSOEVER" scriptures:

John 3:15
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

John 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

John 12:46
I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Acts 2:21
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 10:43
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive
remission of sins.

Romans 9:33
As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Romans 10:11
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

1 John 2:23
Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

1 John 4:15
Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1 John 5:1
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Revelation 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

• Refrain:
  “Whosoever” surely meaneth me,
  Surely meaneth me, oh, surely meaneth me;
  “Whosoever” surely meaneth me,
  “Whosoever” meaneth me. AMEN!

I have a particular affinity for the whosoevers Thank you for this compilation AMEN!

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Here is my understanding ---

All have received the measure of faith given by God (Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith).

We have all received the same measure. When all is said and done and we stand before God, no one can say he or she did not have what he/she needed in order to activate the measure given and come to saving faith in Messiah.

God also gave everyone a conscience. In Rom 2:15, the conscience is referred to as the work of the law written in the heart. Please note this is not the law written in the heart. That comes once a person is born again. But we all start out with the work of the law written in our hearts by which we are able to recognize good from evil.

Again, no one can stand before God and say he or she did not have what was needed in order to come to faith.

So, if all have the measure of faith and all have the work of the law written in the heart, why do some come to faith and some do not come to faith?

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness

To "hold the truth in unrighteousness" is to suppress, restrain, or hinder the truth in unrighteousness. God has given us what we need in order to receive truth from Him. He gave us the measure of faith and He gave us the work of the law written in our hearts.

If/when we hear God's truth and we do not suppress, restrain, or hinder it, it flows to our heart where God can bring increase (1 Cor 3:7). The faith which God gave to each one of us in the same measure can grow stronger as we learn to trust in God.

However, if/when we hear God's truth and we suppress, restrain, or hinder it, it does not reach our heart where God can bring increase. We then remain weak in faith.

And reading further in Rom 1, we see what happens as we continuously suppress, restrain, and hinder:

Rom 1:21-23 – foolish heart becomes darkened. We then profess ourselves as wise but in reality we become fools and change to glory of God into an image (idolatry).

Rom 1:24-25 – because of our idolatrous ways, God releases us to uncleanness. We then dishonor our bodies by changing the truth of God into a lie by worshiping the creation more than the Creator.

Rom 1:26-27 – because we dishonor ourselves, God releases us to vile affections. We see Rom 1:26-27 going on in the US every day. And we are also seeing that some have received the recompence of their error which was due them.

Rom 1:28-32 – because we do not like to retain God in our knowledge, God releases us to a reprobate mind, which results in all of the activities we see in vss 28-32.


So, we have a choice to suppress, restrain, hinder God's Word or not suppress, restrain, hinder. That is the choice we are faced with at any given moment.

 

[nowyouseem033]

I find it hard to accept not because it goes against my but because it says God only allows certain people to come to faith, and come to truth, The rest, he does not even give the possibility.

I can not do good in my human state, this we agree, But realizing your sinfulness (which paul said in romans 1 you already know) Realizing your just condemnation because of your sin (again Romans 1) and realising who God is, and his offer of salvation, is not a good act. it is not even a righteous act, It is a state of hittingn rock bottom and comming to your end, Of being like the tax collector. who got on his knees.

God did not give the Tax collector the ability to have faith, while refusing to give the pharisee the same ability. He died for both of them.

The only difference is, when the HS came to onvict of sin righteousness and judgment, The tax collector said yes, The pharisee said no.

There will be no excuse in heaven, because everyone had the ability and knowledge to be saved, they CHOSE to reject it.

Though I in part agree, you have to ask yourself the question how did one come to realize there own sinfulness?? Was it them choosing to see themselves the way God sees there sinfulness or was it purely an act of the spirit of God to open the eyes of the blind say that are now able to see there sinfulness. I side with the latter. Upon seeing by the spirit of God they respond freely because freely they have been regenerated to be able to SEE!

 

[nowyouseem033]

God actually chose the whole world to save. Only those who believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ will be saved.

Romans 321 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

The righteousness of God through Jesus Christ is unto all, everyone. But, the righteousness of God is upon them that believe. The faith of Jesus Christ is imputed to those that believe. If God chose me to believe, it wouldn't be belief. Forced belief is not belief. If I had no choice in the matter, then it's not belief.

Again the only way God will ever overcome the stubbornness and wickedness of my heart is if he changes the disposition of it towards him. This change is not a co-operation that God has to get my permission to do. No this change takes place by the moving of the spirit while im still dead in my sins. It is not forced belief because forced would go against what i want and my will. Upon the regeneration of the spirit i want Christ therefore i choose to believe in Christ. That choice is only because God has opened my eyes to see the beauty of the gospel open my ears to listen to his Word and open my heart to sow the seeds of transformation. Without the penetrating grace of God i would be still blind, deaf and hardened to him no matter what i choose to do or not.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Like all of us, You studied, and all of a sudden the light came on. It happened to me in school When I struggled with a subject. Then all of a sudden it was like the lights came on and I understood..

I've heard some people say they searched deeply into the scriptures for many years and then had the proof to believe, but that's not at all how it happened with me. In one moment I just saw the truth. I didn't study. I just read the gospels. The light came on long before I studied. That's just how it happened with me.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Though I in part agree, you have to ask yourself the question how did one come to realize there own sinfulness?? Was it them choosing to see themselves the way God sees there sinfulness or was it purely an act of the spirit of God to open the eyes of the blind say that are now able to see there sinfulness. I side with the latter. Upon seeing by the spirit of God they respond freely because freely they have been regenerated to be able to SEE!

John 16:8
And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

rom 1:
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, [SUP]19 [/SUP]because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

[SUP]32 [/SUP]who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

Rom 1 says from the begining of time man has known, of God, Of his wrath against sin, and they are guilty, But today we have less of an excuse, because every man woman and child on earth is convicted by the HS himself of sin righteousness and judgment.

when the unsaved gets to heaven, they will not be able to say they did not know or understand, The knew, and they supressed the truth, and they will not be able to hide that from God.

they might not understand exactly what God did, because they did not seek, or did not understand, But they have no excuse.

 

[oldethennew]

ROMANS 8:26-27-28-29-30.
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought:
but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

And He that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because
He maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called
according to His purpose.

For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son,
that He might be the Firstborn among many brethren.

Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified:
and whom He justified, them He also glorified.

33.
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I've heard some people say they searched deeply into the scriptures for many years and then had the proof to believe, but that's not at all how it happened with me. In one moment I just saw the truth. I didn't study. I just read the gospels. The light came on long before I studied. That's just how it happened with me.

yep. Thats how it happened to me also..