FROM THE DESK OF......

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

That should say, "Remaining obedient secures fellowship with God and Christ, and future rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ".

The eternal security of the believer is NOT based upon his or her obedience, but Christ's obedience to the Law and to the Father (His perfect life on earth and His perfect sacrifice for our sins).

Christ's obedience secured a new birth for believers, guidance and strength to practice righteousness and forgiveness for when we fall short of doing righteousness.

 

[p_rehbein]

I answered you., our calling is not to obey commandments. Our calling is to walk in the Spirit. When we walk in the Spirit we will do the things we are called to do. If we walk in the flesh., it will be IMPOSSIBLE to do anything in the Spirit that is fruitful.

[SUP]Gal.5:16 [SUP]16 [/SUP]But I say, walk and live [habitually] in the [Holy] Spirit [responsive to and controlled and guided by the Spirit]; then you will certainly not gratify the cravings and desires of the flesh (of human nature without God).



22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the [Holy] Spirit [the work which His presence within accomplishes] is love, joy (gladness), peace, patience (an even temper, forbearance), kindness, goodness (benevolence), faithfulness,
[SUP]
23 [/SUP]Gentleness (meekness, humility), self-control (self-restraint, continence). Against such things there is no law [[SUP][a][/SUP]that can bring a charge].
[SUP]
24 [/SUP]And those who belong to Christ Jesus (the Messiah) have crucified the flesh (the godless human nature) with its passions and appetites and desires.
[SUP]
25 [/SUP]If we live by the [Holy] Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. [If by the Holy Spirit [SUP][b][/SUP]we have our life in God, let us go forward [SUP][c][/SUP]walking in line, our conduct controlled by the Spirit.]

Yes, however, remaining obedient to Christ is STILL required by Him.......

got things to do........enjoy

 

[Grandpa]

Continuing to tapdance are we?

That's ok......I know it is how you do things when you are caught by the short hairs as they say.

You falsely created some "score" thing, and then when called out on it.........you want to deflect by saying it is me that does not understand.....so very typical of you guys here.......

There IS a reason why Jesus said what He did:

BECAUSE HE EXPECTS US TO OBEY HIM!

Obedience to Christ is necessary....no matter how you OSAS'ers try and get around it.....it is necessary.

How you guys think one can live a life in disobedience to Christ and STILL receive eternal life is one of the great mysteries of our time........

Commandments are given, and God/Christ expects them to be obeyed........and THIS INCLUDES THE TWO GREATEST. fOR THEY are COMMANDMENTS.......you know, those things you don't think are necessary

No. You are wrong. Like usual.

The Lord told you to obey so you would see that you CANNOT.

So that you would see your spiritual poverty.

So that you would see your need for a Saviour.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

That is the score needed to secure your salvation by obedience. PERFECTION.



John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Abiding in Christ by faith IS obedience. Coming to Christ and receiving rest from your work at your own righteousness IS obedience.

Working at your own understanding of what you think the Lord has commanded is not obedience. That way has already been tried and it failed. That is the whole reason for Christ and Christianity.

We are not able. We need a Saviour.


If we were able to secure our own salvation by obedience we wouldn't ever really need a saviour. We could just obey.

​

 

[Nehemiah6]

... our calling is not to obey commandments. Our calling is to walk in the Spirit.

Walking in the Spirit includes obedience to the commandments of Christ, so you are contradicting Scripture. Study the first epistle of John.

At the same time the fundamental premise of this OP is TOTALLY FALSE. Only Christ's obedience secures our eternal security. Anything less than absolute perfection cannot be accepted by God, and only Christ has absolute sinless perfection. In addition to that it was His perfect finished work on the Cross which secured our redemption.

The Devil is doing his best to get people to take their eyes off Christ and His finished work of redemption, and get them to focus on themselves and their own righteousness. Hence all the false doctrines floating around.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The Galatians lost their liberty in Christ by allowing themselves to be enslaved to the yoke of the law. In their case the issue was circumcision, but for us it could be anything that puts a price tag on grace—church rules, confession of sins, the spiritual disciplines, whatever. I’m not against these things. I’m saying there is nothing we can do to add or improve upon Christ’s perfect work.

It wasn't a matter of rules or no rules. The issue was pharisees who came from Jerusalem telling the Galatians that to be saved they had to become proselytes of righteousness, which meant converting to Judaism (circumcision and following the entire law of Moses). The Jerusalem council ruled against that and said believing gentiles only needed to adhere to the rules of the synagogues in which they worshipped (Noahide laws).

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

No., He who has the Son of God has life... he who has not the Son of God has not life...but the wrath of God abides on them... He who has the Spirit is one of His.. if we don't have the Spirit we are none of His.

It's not about our behavior... It's about our PEDIGREE ... Born again or not. That's the criteria.

Many Israelites thought it was about pedigree. They thought because they were children of Abraham they were saved. Jesus sure popped that bubble.

 

[Grandpa]

It's not about keeping score. It's about abiding in him so that we can turn to him and be cleansed by his blood when we fall.

Exactly what I was getting at.

IF it were about OUR obedience then there would have to be some sort of scoring system.

How much obedience would be enough?

Perfect obedience? Pretty good obedience? Just enough to avoid punishment obedience?

Would we be graded on a curve according to our own strengths and effort? Maybe its easier for me to obey in certain areas than it is for you. Are we graded equally in this area? Or since it is harder for you do you get extra credit?


No. None of that matters. Because it is PERFECT obedience that is required. And we cannot attain to perfect obedience.

But what we can do is put our FAITH in the One who Is Perfectly Obedient.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

No. That is an assumption made up by people who only understand working for their salvation.

I don't work to earn salvation, I work to abide in it.

 

[Chester]

Jesus didn't give us "commandments" He gave us His righteousness and His Spirit.

What? Jesus did not give us commandments?

Oh, yes he did give us commandments! And they are wonderfully amazing challenging and inspiring things to do for our Redeemer.

 

[Grandpa]

I don't work to earn salvation, I work to abide in it.

What is this work that you do in order to abide in salvation?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Exactly what I was getting at.
IF it were about OUR obedience then there would have to be some sort of scoring system.
How much obedience would be enough?
Perfect obedience? Pretty good obedience? Just enough to avoid punishment obedience?
Would we be graded on a curve according to our own strengths and effort? Maybe its easier for me to obey in certain areas than it is for you. Are we graded equally in this area? Or since it is harder for you do you get extra credit?
No. None of that matters. Because it is PERFECT obedience that is required. And we cannot attain to perfect obedience.
But what we can do is put our FAITH in the One who Is Perfectly Obedient.

But abiding in him so that we can love others and turn to him and be cleansed by his blood when we fall IS obedience. Forget all of the other stuff. Stop thinking about obedience as trying to meet some standard. That work has already been done. Obedience is abiding in what we have been given because of that work.

 

[notuptome]

Obedience is about sanctification not about salvation. Those who are not saved cannot obey because even their best obedience is as filthy rags.

Only Christ was perfectly obedient. Disobedient children are disciplined not disowned or destroyed.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

What is this work that you do in order to abide in salvation?

Examining myself (thoughts, conduct, intentions) to discern if I am walking according to faith and love, prayer, acts of love when compelled, self-honesty, self-control, compassion, gentleness, sharing knowledge, abstaining from sinful actions, true humility (before GOD mostly), repentance when becoming aware that I have sinned, humbling myself before GOD to acknowledge that I probably have sin (or have sinned) that I don't know about or am too dishonest or afraid to admit. I'm sure there's a lot more, but that's a start. Grace gives the ability to do all of these things.

 

[joaniemarie]

Walking in the Spirit includes obedience to the commandments of Christ, so you are contradicting Scripture. Study the first epistle of John.

At the same time the fundamental premise of this OP is TOTALLY FALSE. Only Christ's obedience secures our eternal security. Anything less than absolute perfection cannot be accepted by God, and only Christ has absolute sinless perfection. In addition to that it was His perfect finished work on the Cross which secured our redemption.

The Devil is doing his best to get people to take their eyes off Christ and His finished work of redemption, and get them to focus on themselves and their own righteousness. Hence all the false doctrines floating around.

I do not contradict the Scripture in this matter; The Bible says when we walk in the Spirit we will not fulfill the lusts or desires of the flesh. Gal.5:16
[SUP]
16 [/SUP]But I say, walk and live [habitually] in the [Holy] Spirit [responsive to and controlled and guided by the Spirit]; then you will certainly not gratify the cravings and desires of the flesh (of human nature without God).

The flesh is apposed to the Spirit and the Spirit to the flesh... ONE has to be in control. Gal.5:17

[SUP]17 [/SUP]For the desires of the flesh are opposed to the [Holy] Spirit, and the [desires of the] Spirit are opposed to the flesh (godless human nature); for these are antagonistic to each other [continually withstanding and in conflict with each other], so that you are not free but are prevented from doing what you desire to do.
[SUP]
18 [/SUP]But if you are guided (led) by the [Holy] Spirit, you are not subject to the Law.


When you walk in the spirit there are no laws to follow because we follow the Holy Spirit in and by our new creation in Christ. We cannot walk in our flesh to do the works of the spirit. IMPOSSIBLE.

Study Gal.5 specifically looking at Gal.5:20 It's Christ living in us. Then you should also read John about the Holy Spirit.

Our calling is to walk in the freedom Christ has called us to by His Spirit. The new and living way. The law of the Spirit of life IN CHRIST has set us FREE from the law of sin and death. Rom.8:2

I do however agree with you that the world..flesh and devil are always constantly trying to get us to look at everything and everyone but Jesus.

 

[p_rehbein]

Obedience is about sanctification not about salvation. Those who are not saved cannot obey because even their best obedience is as filthy rags.

Only Christ was perfectly obedient. Disobedient children are disciplined not disowned or destroyed.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Exactly! Which is why I said obedience is a FRUIT of salvation.....not unto salvation.

As for R.O.S.E

It is impossible for a person who is NOT saved to live a life in obedience to Christ. One must FIRST be saved to live in obedience to Christ......just like one must first be saved to do good works for Christ.......to do the will of God.....

Thus.....

Remaining obedient secures eternity........why? Because if we live our lives in obedience to Christ, doing His will that He purposed us for, we are "secure" in knowing our eternity will be with Him!

Why people do not understand that is beyond me. Do people believe that we can live a life of disobedience to Christ and be secure in our eternity? Well, I guess they could, but that eternity would NOT be with Him would it?

Anyway........

Matthew 22:36) Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37) Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38) This is the first and great commandment. 39) And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40) On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

These are Commandments...........and Christ expects us to be obedient to them.....why would people believe we do not have to be obedient?

He also expects us to obey all the Commandments He gave us in His Gospel.......

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This sounds familiar.

Galatians 3:3
Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

It says we are saved by the cross. And we are saved in the spirit of God, but we must perfect that salvation in the flesh (works)

 

[Nehemiah6]

(Scriptural Support)

OK, let's look at this so-called Scriptural Support

John 14:15 - If ye love me, keep my commandments.
No indication that eternal security is in jeopardy.

Luke 6:46 - And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
This is a rebuke to the false professors paying lip-service, not true Christians.

Romans 6:16 - Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Right. Which means that genuine Christians must not be slaves to sin, but walk in the Spirit.

Matthew 7:21 - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Correct. This separates the sheep from the goats, the wheat from the tares.

James 1:22 - But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Absolutely. If Christian are not doers of the Word, they are false professors paying lip service to Christ.

Isaiah 1:19 - If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
This was for Israel. Disregard.

1 Samuel 15:22 - And Samuel said, Hath the LORD [as great] delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey [is] better than sacrifice, [and] to hearken than the fat of rams.
Absolutely. This is addressed to the hypocrites who went through the outward motions, but disobeyed God internally.

Ephesians 6:5-9 - Servants, be obedient to them that are [your] masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;
This is addressed to servants or all employees. Employees are to do what their employers require, unless it is illegal or immoral.

Romans 8:28 - And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
Those who love God keep His commandments, and all things do indeed work together for good.

James 2:24 - Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Correct. A genuine faith in Christ must produce good works, so absence of good works means that there was no genuine faith.

John 14:21 - He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
There is no question that Christians are to keep the commandments of Christ, but not for their eternal security. To show their genuine love for God.

Matthew 7:14 - Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
The "narrow way" is Christ Himself, His blood, and His righteousness, for our salvation.

2 Corinthians 2:9 - For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.
Christians cannot do as they please, since they have been bought with a price.

Luke 5:1-39 - And it came to pass, that, as the people pressed upon him to hear the word of God, he stood by the lake of Gennesaret, (Read More...)

Matthew 16:27)For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Right. This speaks of rewards, not eternal life -- which is God's gift.

Romans 2:5) But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6) Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7) To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8) But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9) Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10) But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11) For there is no respect of persons with God.
Everyone will be judged according to their works.

2 Corinthians 5:10) For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Christians will be judged for their works at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

1 Corinthians 4:5) Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
Only Christ can render ultimate judgment upon every believer.

1 Peter 1:17) And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
​Christians will be judged for their works at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

Revelation 20:12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
This is the judgment of the damned. It has nothing to do with Christians.

Psalms 62:12) Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.
Correct. Every man's works will be judged (saved and unsaved).

Proverbs 24:12) If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?
Same as above.

Colossians 3:23) And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;
24) Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. 25) But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.
Again, Christians will receive rewards according to their works. This does not speak of the gift of eternal life.

1 Corinthians 3:8) Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
Again, this is about rewards, not salvation.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Jesus showed us the example we must follow. if we want to earn salvation apart from him, And that was perfection. Since we can not meet this standard, we are required to come to God under grace and mercy,

If we can not live up to Gods standard, How can our obedience ever secure our eternity? The fact is, our disobedience (failure to fulfill the law) secures our damnation, apart from the grace of God.

 

[joaniemarie]

It wasn't a matter of rules or no rules. The issue was pharisees who came from Jerusalem telling the Galatians that to be saved they had to become proselytes of righteousness, which meant converting to Judaism (circumcision and following the entire law of Moses). The Jerusalem council ruled against that and said believing gentiles only needed to adhere to the rules of the synagogues in which they worshipped (Noahide laws).

Paul never tells the Galatians, “You are losing your salvation.” Instead, he says, “You are indulging the flesh” (Galatians 5:13). They were becoming carnal, biting and devouring one another in vicious arguments. The danger is not that God will destroy them, but that “you will be destroyed by each other” (Galatians 5:15).

Remove grace from any community and you will soon have quarrels, strife, bickering, manipulation, envy, hatred, and all the other works of the flesh that Paul lists in Galatians 5:19–21. But none of these things will send you to hell.

When Paul reminds the Galatians that “they who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom,” he’s saying, “Those who belong to Christ shouldn’t act like those who don’t.”


It was about the Galatians depending on following the rules., doing what they thought was righteous and good INSTEAD of FAITH in the finished work of Jesus on the cross. Just like today., people talk about our works instead of faith in Jesus finished perfect work. They talk about doing works of the flesh instead of learning about their spirit man... the new creation that we are NOW in Christ.

We can do tons of stuff in and by our flesh and it looks really good.... but all it is is works of the flesh. It cannot be fruit of the Spirit because it's done in and by the flesh.

It's simply trying to pour NEW WINE into Old wine skins. We are told to pour new wine into NEW wine skins. Can't live by the spirit by trying to prop up the flesh. Won't work... can't work.,,, IMPOSSIBLE.

 

[Waggles]

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep
his commandments.
4 He that says, I know him, and keeps not his commandments,
is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1John 2:

22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his
commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
24 And he that keeps his commandments dwells in him, and he in him.
And hereby we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he has
given us. 1John 3:

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God,
and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments:
and his commandments are not grievous.
1John 5:

6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments.
This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning,
ye should walk in it.
2John 1: