FROM THE DESK OF......
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Proverbs 5:
12 And say, How have I hated instruction,
and my heart despised reproof;
13 And have not obeyed the voice of my teachers,
nor inclined mine ear to them that instructed me!
Proverbs 25:12
As an ear-ring of gold, and an ornament of fine gold,
so is a wise reprover upon an obedient ear.
Acts 5:
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour,
for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost,
whom God hath given to them that obey him.
12 And say, How have I hated instruction,
and my heart despised reproof;
13 And have not obeyed the voice of my teachers,
nor inclined mine ear to them that instructed me!
Proverbs 25:12
As an ear-ring of gold, and an ornament of fine gold,
so is a wise reprover upon an obedient ear.
Acts 5:
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour,
for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost,
whom God hath given to them that obey him.
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Joanie...are you having memory lapses? saying I have not read your op's? if you were trying to be honest at all, you would not say something so obviously contrived and disingenuous.
funny how you would seem to think one must read YOUR op (which is really nothing more than an advert for Mr Prince) in order to know about the righteousness of Christ.
we do not rest in the righteousness of Christ. we are obedient to Christ...something that Prince leaves out of his renderings and something you might look into. if a person is actually IN Christ, they will begin to obey Him...actually Jesus says that is a test of whether or not you love Him...we do not earn salvation but we had better exhibit it
you are not making any sense here....since you know full well I have participated in your Prince attributions...as do most people here who have participated in your copy/pastes...
as the entire op is about obedience...to Christ...I guess you missed that somehow as a copy/paste did not fit in for a response...and of course how would it, when Prince never speaks of obedience
I guess you must be reflecting Joseph Prince then since you constantly refer to him
it may surprise you to know that every single saved human being actually depends on the righteousness of Christ...which righteousness He obtained THROUGH OBEDIENCE..
it is my opinion that you are depending on others for your understanding (well actually many people have said this to you mulitple times) and your response in this thread certainly underscores that evaluation
you can tell your dear friend that he is rather mixed up but also rather also good at talking so much you loose track of what he says and I understand he cannot be questionned...but only agreed with
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E
1 John 5: [SUP]10[/SUP]He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. [SUP]12 [/SUP]He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. [SUP]13 [/SUP]These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life,[SUP][d][/SUP] and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
This is but one passage which gives me assurance and keeps me walling forward. Continuing to run the race, not in fear. but on Grace and mercy.
This is but one passage which gives me assurance and keeps me walling forward. Continuing to run the race, not in fear. but on Grace and mercy.
E
Well, you guys do use the 'self-righteous' phrase quite a bit, as well as 'the flesh', so no, it's not imagination.
Maybe you just thought you didn't do it as much.
Maybe you just thought you didn't do it as much.
And by the way, Have we Met? You awful new to be determining what people say.
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this is abit of a lengthy article so I will post it in sections, with the source at the last post. I think it fits in beautifully with this thread and addresses the OSAS 3000 mindset that makes no allowance for any type of works, while not understanding that obedience is the work of Christ IN us ~ for the record, not all OSAS folks are hyper ventilating when someone address obedience or the works we are created to do...that is, not works to keep the law, which is actually the ONLY objection of merit with regard to this discussion
Here is the first part:
There’s a debate happening in the church recently. How much of the Christian life is grace, and how much of it is obedience? Or, how does gospel centeredness and justification work together?
Oh, how I would love for the lovers of sovereign grace to be of one mind about how sovereign grace works in the process of sanctification, how grace relates to obedience, the process of our attitudes and actions becoming more holy by the grace of God. 1 Peter 1:15 says: As he who called you is holy, be holy in all your conduct. So there are controversies out there about the process of sanctification and the role of obedience and effort in it, the role of grace and Christ’s cross and justification in it. And I want to try to come at this in a way that maybe could bring these sides together. All of us want to exalt grace. Grace is our only hope.
None of us deserves heaven. We all deserve hell. Only grace will keep us out of hell and that grace flows to us from God through Jesus Christ, only through Jesus Christ who absorbed the curse and the wrath of God and who provided righteousness for us and enabled us to be forgiven so that God could be 100 percent for us. All of us have in mind those glorious truths when we think about grace and we all agree and the people I am thinking about anyway would.
The debate is usually formulated in terms of whether human effort is needed to obtain the holiness or the obedience without which we will not see the Lord. And what I don’t see emphasized enough and I think it would help if we did...what I don’t see emphasized enough in the debate...I could have missed it... is a strong biblical emphasis on future grace. That is the kind of grace that shows up this afternoon or tomorrow morning. It is new every morning as Lamentations 3:22 says. And it empowers faith filled effort that we make and that will in the things that we ought to do. This future grace is blood bought grace. There is the link with the cross and with justification.
The only reason God is gracious to me this afternoon is because Christ died for me in the past. And so it always... this... depending on this future grace always glorifies the Jesus of the cross, the blood shedding Jesus. So let me illustrate how this works from a few texts and one text in particular is very, very key. And I would just love to get everybody in the same room and see how they would handle this text.
Here is the first part:
There’s a debate happening in the church recently. How much of the Christian life is grace, and how much of it is obedience? Or, how does gospel centeredness and justification work together?
Oh, how I would love for the lovers of sovereign grace to be of one mind about how sovereign grace works in the process of sanctification, how grace relates to obedience, the process of our attitudes and actions becoming more holy by the grace of God. 1 Peter 1:15 says: As he who called you is holy, be holy in all your conduct. So there are controversies out there about the process of sanctification and the role of obedience and effort in it, the role of grace and Christ’s cross and justification in it. And I want to try to come at this in a way that maybe could bring these sides together. All of us want to exalt grace. Grace is our only hope.
None of us deserves heaven. We all deserve hell. Only grace will keep us out of hell and that grace flows to us from God through Jesus Christ, only through Jesus Christ who absorbed the curse and the wrath of God and who provided righteousness for us and enabled us to be forgiven so that God could be 100 percent for us. All of us have in mind those glorious truths when we think about grace and we all agree and the people I am thinking about anyway would.
The debate is usually formulated in terms of whether human effort is needed to obtain the holiness or the obedience without which we will not see the Lord. And what I don’t see emphasized enough and I think it would help if we did...what I don’t see emphasized enough in the debate...I could have missed it... is a strong biblical emphasis on future grace. That is the kind of grace that shows up this afternoon or tomorrow morning. It is new every morning as Lamentations 3:22 says. And it empowers faith filled effort that we make and that will in the things that we ought to do. This future grace is blood bought grace. There is the link with the cross and with justification.
The only reason God is gracious to me this afternoon is because Christ died for me in the past. And so it always... this... depending on this future grace always glorifies the Jesus of the cross, the blood shedding Jesus. So let me illustrate how this works from a few texts and one text in particular is very, very key. And I would just love to get everybody in the same room and see how they would handle this text.
I wish you did read my posts but you don't., You don't see past your anger and instead of reading my posts., you are triggered by them. Instead of discussing issues of faith., you attack and find anything to argue about. Instead of meeting on grounds of what we have in common., you prefer to focus on what we differ on. That's your choice.
I'll repost it again in the hopes that you actually will read my post and not "read INTO" my posts.
John 5:39-40 is Jesus speaking to the Jews that rejected Him.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]You search and investigate and pore over the Scriptures diligently, because you suppose and trust that you have eternal life through them. And these [very Scriptures] testify about Me!
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And still you are not willing [but refuse] to come to Me, so that you might have life.
We can make the scriptures "God" When I say that - it is really our "interpretation" of the scriptures that we make to be a "god" in our own mind. Without the Holy Spirit's revelation to show us Christ - we are at the mercy of our own religious un-renewed minds.
The Bible is not a roadmap or instruction manual in a"completed" sense. The Bible is NOT God - God breathed - inspired - YES!
But the Bible is a book about Jesus. The Bible is not an end to itself - the Bible speaks of Jesus. He is the true reality that the scriptures speak off ( This is why there is so much controversy on the Sabbath Day issue )
Jesus said "...you search the scriptures because you think ( human reasoning ) "in them" you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life." John 5:39-40
Reading the Bible without wanting to know and see Jesus and the Father for whom they truly are is like reading someone else's love letters. You might learn a few things about love but this will not move you toward the one who wrote the letters.
Some people get confused because they think the Bible has all the answers - it does not. It does however point us to the One who "is"the answer! James never said - "If anyone lacks wisdom you should study the Bible - He said - you should ask God Himself. James 1:5 ( God may use a verse in the scriptures or a word from another teacher...etc )
God surely speaks to us through the Bible but if the Bible doesn't lead you to the revelation of the One called Wisdom - you will be no wiser than a Pharisee. If we look for Jesus - the Holy Spirit will reveal Him in the Old Testament.
A mis-guided ( albeit maybe a well intentioned ) teacher/preacher will use the scriptures to tell you what you should do, but a grace/Christ oriented teacher/preacher will use the scriptures to show you what Jesus has done and who you are in Him now because we are in Christ and He is in us. The Holy Spirit in us teaches/guides/reveals to us Jesus and the Father's true character and finished work.
Read the scriptures with the view to "see" Jesus. In Him we see the heart and will of the Father being manifested on this earth. The best translation of the Bible is Jesus!
He is the "living word" within the written word and He is flawless and free of translation errors. All of man's translations have biases and inaccuracies. Sometimes translators give their "doctrinal beliefs" when translating a verse or word.
The scriptures teach us that we are not living by the teaching of the Bible per se - we are living by the life of Christ in us. The source of our life is not the Bible - the source of our life is the Lord Jesus Christ and the Father.
In the Old Testament when it refers to "the word of God" and the life it brings - it was in reality talking about "the living word of God" ( Jesus Himself ) - of which the scriptures are a "shadow" of the real substance - Jesus. ( another reason why strict Sabbath Keepers cannot see Christ as our true Sabbath rest now in the New Covenant - they are stuck in the shadow and think that it is the real )
The Bible shows us the ways Jesus Christ wants to express His life through us to a hurt and dying world. In Him we live, move and have our being. The Bible leads us to the source of life = Jesus Himself.
The Bible is NOT God but we can make our own interpretations of the Bible to be our "god" in our own un-renewed minds. The Holy Spirit has come in us to show us the things "of Christ" and reveal them to us - His beloved children.
Unquote
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Part II
The point I am making here is that living by grace and making effort in the Bible, those two things—living by grace and making effort with my own mind and will—are in the Bible not exclusive categories. Those aren’t either/ors. You don’t say: I will either live by grace or I will either make an effort. If the effort is what the Bible calls a work of faith... so watch this happen in 2 Thessalonians 1:11-12.
In fact, I would say this to people. Click stop right now on the episode and go get your Bible and open it up and I will wait for you. Ok, good, are you back? Good. Here we go. We always pray for you. This is 2 Thessalonians 1:11. “We always pray for you that our God may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power so that the name of Jesus, the Lord Jesus, would be glorified in you according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.”
Now that is a massively important verse on the relationship between my resolving and my working and God’s grace and God’s power and my faith. So here are the eight pieces. Here are the eight steps of sanctification in that verse. I will just tick them off here. Number one, God. We always pray for you that our God may fulfill in you. So everything starts with God.
Number two. God’s grace. The resolve for good, every work of faith are according to the grace of our God. Now that is future grace. So this afternoon I am supposed to resolve some good, do some work of faith. There is going to be grace there to help me make it happen.
Number three. God’s power. God fulfills every resolve for good, every work of faith by his power. So this grace is experienced as a power from God.
The point I am making here is that living by grace and making effort in the Bible, those two things—living by grace and making effort with my own mind and will—are in the Bible not exclusive categories. Those aren’t either/ors. You don’t say: I will either live by grace or I will either make an effort. If the effort is what the Bible calls a work of faith... so watch this happen in 2 Thessalonians 1:11-12.
In fact, I would say this to people. Click stop right now on the episode and go get your Bible and open it up and I will wait for you. Ok, good, are you back? Good. Here we go. We always pray for you. This is 2 Thessalonians 1:11. “We always pray for you that our God may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power so that the name of Jesus, the Lord Jesus, would be glorified in you according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.”
Now that is a massively important verse on the relationship between my resolving and my working and God’s grace and God’s power and my faith. So here are the eight pieces. Here are the eight steps of sanctification in that verse. I will just tick them off here. Number one, God. We always pray for you that our God may fulfill in you. So everything starts with God.
Number two. God’s grace. The resolve for good, every work of faith are according to the grace of our God. Now that is future grace. So this afternoon I am supposed to resolve some good, do some work of faith. There is going to be grace there to help me make it happen.
Number three. God’s power. God fulfills every resolve for good, every work of faith by his power. So this grace is experienced as a power from God.
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3rd
Number four. Our faith. This God fulfilled activity is a work of faith. That is the phrase in the Bible. Work of faith. So the way God by his grace and his power is going to bring about the good work, the obedience, the holiness is by faith in that grace which is his power to do it.
Number five. Our resolve. May God fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith. This means that there is an inner motion of the soul to embrace the good that is about to be done. The soul moves. It is an act of the will. I am resolving something. This is a human act, human act. But God is the one who by his grace, by his power, through our faith is bringing it to pass. Those are the dynamics that keep it from being legalism.
Number six. Our work. May the God of... May God fulfill every good resolve, every resolve for good and work of faith by his power. So this is our work in the sense that our mind, our will, our hands are the actors of the deed. But the decisive cause is God, God’s grace, God’s power flowing through our faith, our resolve. So 1 Corinthians 15:10 is just a great illustration of this. By the grace of God I am what I am. And his grace toward me as not in vain. On the contrary, I worked. I worked harder than any of them though it was not I, but the grace of God that was with me. It is exactly the same as here in 2 Thessalonians 1:11.
Number seven. The resolve is fulfilled ... so that is the seventh piece. Fulfilled. The work is done. May God fulfill every good resolve and work of faith. So when the work is done we know God has done it. He awakened my resolve. He gave the gift of faith. His grace and his power carried the work. And so when it is done he fulfilled it, which is what it says in Philippians 2:12. Work out your salvation with fear and trembling for it is God ... So your working is really God’s working. He is the one that is bringing it to completion through the resolving and the willing and the working and the faith and the power and the grace. So it is your acting and his decisive doing.
Number eight. This is the last one. Jesus is glorified. May God fulfill every resolve for good, every work of faith by his power so that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ be glorified in you. So it is all going to glorify Jesus, because he is the one who bought all of this grace for us.
So by his grace and for his glory and in the middle human resolve, human work and the link between this blood bought power and grace that carries all this human action is my faith, my trust in him so that in the end the work of holiness is a work of faith and a work of grace. It is visibly and partly our doing and it is ultimately and decisively God’s doing
Number four. Our faith. This God fulfilled activity is a work of faith. That is the phrase in the Bible. Work of faith. So the way God by his grace and his power is going to bring about the good work, the obedience, the holiness is by faith in that grace which is his power to do it.
Number five. Our resolve. May God fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith. This means that there is an inner motion of the soul to embrace the good that is about to be done. The soul moves. It is an act of the will. I am resolving something. This is a human act, human act. But God is the one who by his grace, by his power, through our faith is bringing it to pass. Those are the dynamics that keep it from being legalism.
Number six. Our work. May the God of... May God fulfill every good resolve, every resolve for good and work of faith by his power. So this is our work in the sense that our mind, our will, our hands are the actors of the deed. But the decisive cause is God, God’s grace, God’s power flowing through our faith, our resolve. So 1 Corinthians 15:10 is just a great illustration of this. By the grace of God I am what I am. And his grace toward me as not in vain. On the contrary, I worked. I worked harder than any of them though it was not I, but the grace of God that was with me. It is exactly the same as here in 2 Thessalonians 1:11.
Number seven. The resolve is fulfilled ... so that is the seventh piece. Fulfilled. The work is done. May God fulfill every good resolve and work of faith. So when the work is done we know God has done it. He awakened my resolve. He gave the gift of faith. His grace and his power carried the work. And so when it is done he fulfilled it, which is what it says in Philippians 2:12. Work out your salvation with fear and trembling for it is God ... So your working is really God’s working. He is the one that is bringing it to completion through the resolving and the willing and the working and the faith and the power and the grace. So it is your acting and his decisive doing.
Number eight. This is the last one. Jesus is glorified. May God fulfill every resolve for good, every work of faith by his power so that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ be glorified in you. So it is all going to glorify Jesus, because he is the one who bought all of this grace for us.
So by his grace and for his glory and in the middle human resolve, human work and the link between this blood bought power and grace that carries all this human action is my faith, my trust in him so that in the end the work of holiness is a work of faith and a work of grace. It is visibly and partly our doing and it is ultimately and decisively God’s doing
I read it the first time and I've read it now the second time. I'd be very surprised if anyone took issue with it.
I learn by way of repetition. I also like using the same Bible all the time but have been forced to use different translations when it's obvious the meanings are better translated in another Bible.
The way to know if we are really rightly dividing the Word of God is by allowing the Holy Spirit to do it for us. I used to get frustrated when the Bible didn't tell me exactly what I wanted completely to know. But today because of the HolySpirit I've been calmly able to read and re read and pray and wait and the truth always comes while I wait in peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
That is the goal, to know Him and the power of His resurrection not the many and varied doctrines that I or others want to push. I'm 100% in agreement we need doctrine but like some others who posted here., I know that seeing Jesus is the first and foremost goal when I do read the Bible. The doctrine is found in Christ.
It always comes back to seeing Jesus and Gal.2:20 I am crucified with Christ never the less I live., yet not I but Christ lives in me... the life I know live I live by the faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me.
Jesus is perfect theology