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E
That's OK, it is a moot point. What is being discussed is the proper identification of the "sense and tense" of the English word 'And' in an English version of the Bible...
What is in the Hebrew is a separate issue. Valid - yes; but, a separate issue nonetheless...
What is in the Hebrew is a separate issue. Valid - yes; but, a separate issue nonetheless...
E
"You just like to argue, don't you...?"
Believe it or not, I agree with you. and am on your side, But we do not use arguments which are invalid, they do not make us look good do they?
G
"In that case --- I don't want to EVER hear that you actually read anything but the original Hebrew and Greek --- because, if you were to read an English Bible, it would validate that there is actually a case for understanding what the English is saying in the context of the verses of that English Bible --- which would make you out to be an enormous hypocrite..."
"You just like to argue..."
"You just like to argue..."
E
"In that case --- I don't want to EVER hear that you actually read anything but the original Hebrew and Greek --- because, if you were to read an English Bible, it would validate that there is actually a case for understanding what the English is saying in the context of the verses of that English Bible --- which would make you out to be an enormous hypocrite..."
"You just like to argue..."
"You just like to argue..."
Never mind, Continue your argument. Ken, He is all yours. I have no desire to argue with him, because we both agree there is no gap theiry, but since you do, and his argument is to you. Have at it..
E
What I posted fully supports the idea that there is no gap...
but thats ok. Keep on using that to support your theory.. Especially to a man who is quite studied in the hebrew language,
All vs 2 states is that the earth was in its pre-completed state, it was void (Empty) and without form. And the spirit of God hovered over the waters (ready to complete his creation)
the word AND is not necessary, nor was it included.
G
The fact that the word 'And' is present as the first word of Genesis 1:2 in the KJV does not change any of this ( but, rather, supports it ) -- because, the "sense and tense" of the word in that context is NOT chronologically-based. Did you not read that? Can you not understand that?
"You need not be afraid that the word is present in that verse..."
"You need not be afraid that the word is present in that verse..."
Seems like a quiet moment to clear up a little earth fact. If you were at the Equator the moment the earth suddenly stopped spinning, you would weigh about 1/3 of a percent more, maybe a pound more. The centrifugal force is that "weak". You probably wouldn't notice that, bust since you were traveling over a thousand miles per hour, you would likely slam into something extremely violently. The oceans, also still moving the same speed but not attached to the earth like mountains, would make up a world-wide tsunami that would shear the continents flat across possibly all of latitude +30 to -30, also greatly affecting the rest of the world, effectively ending life altogether.
I might be inclined to agree - except for one thing...
The "sense and tense" of the word 'And' at the beginning of any particular verse is based on the context in which it is used -- the surrounding words - before it and after it. It is not the same for all verses.
Genesis 1:
[SUP]1[/SUP] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. [SUP]2[/SUP] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. [SUP]3[/SUP] And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. [SUP]4[/SUP] And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. [SUP]5[/SUP] And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. [SUP]6[/SUP] And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. [SUP]7[/SUP] And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. [SUP]8[/SUP] And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. [SUP]9[/SUP] And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. [SUP]10[/SUP] And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. [SUP]11[/SUP] And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. [SUP]12[/SUP] And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. [SUP]13[/SUP] And the evening and the morning were the third day. [SUP]14[/SUP] And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: [SUP]15[/SUP] And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. [SUP]16[/SUP] And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. [SUP]17[/SUP] And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, [SUP]18[/SUP] And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. [SUP]19[/SUP] And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. [SUP]20[/SUP] And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. [SUP]21[/SUP] And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. [SUP]22[/SUP] And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. [SUP]23[/SUP] And the evening and the morning were the fifth day. [SUP]24[/SUP] And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. [SUP]25[/SUP] And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. [SUP]26[/SUP] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. [SUP]27[/SUP] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. [SUP]28[/SUP] And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. [SUP]29[/SUP] And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. [SUP]30[/SUP] And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. [SUP]31[/SUP] And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
( For the sake of this post, I am [ for-the-most-part ] only discussing the 'And' words at the beginning of the verses. And, yes - I know the verse numbers were added later... [ yada yada yada ] )
Each color represents a different "sense and tense" of the use of the word in the context of where it is used. Those of the same color have a similar "sense and tense" of the word.
The orange word is not chronologically-based, as you suggest; rather, it is conditionally-based - having to do with the 'status' of the earth ( in the context ). There is no 'active' sense of the word present ( based on the context ). It is only 'passive'.
The green word, however, is chronologically-based - having an 'active' sense of the word present.
The blue word is a little more 'passive' than the green word, but may still be considered to be chronologically-based.
The pink word is 'active'; however, the "sense and tense" of it is that of 'explanation' / 'extension' rather than 'action'.
The purple word is entirely 'passive'. In the context of the use of these words, "simply 'what is' is being stated" regarding the creation events.
The gray word is a 'passive' extension of the previous phrase / statement.
( My use of the words 'active' and 'passive' in the above statements are intended from the overall "sense and tense" of the contextual point-of-view of the verses -- not the specific rules of the contruct of the 'grammar of the language'. )
My apologies if I am not able to explain myself well enough...
I have, in the past, been told that I have an 'enormous' vocabulary.
However, sometimes, it seems that it does not present itself well when I need all-of-the-right-words to explain what I am wanting to convey.
And, I have been distracted by / with a headache all day...
Hopefully, I have said it well enough to get the point across...
The "sense and tense" of the word 'And' at the beginning of any particular verse is based on the context in which it is used -- the surrounding words - before it and after it. It is not the same for all verses.
Genesis 1:
[SUP]1[/SUP] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. [SUP]2[/SUP] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. [SUP]3[/SUP] And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. [SUP]4[/SUP] And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. [SUP]5[/SUP] And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. [SUP]6[/SUP] And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. [SUP]7[/SUP] And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. [SUP]8[/SUP] And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. [SUP]9[/SUP] And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. [SUP]10[/SUP] And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. [SUP]11[/SUP] And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. [SUP]12[/SUP] And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. [SUP]13[/SUP] And the evening and the morning were the third day. [SUP]14[/SUP] And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: [SUP]15[/SUP] And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. [SUP]16[/SUP] And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. [SUP]17[/SUP] And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, [SUP]18[/SUP] And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. [SUP]19[/SUP] And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. [SUP]20[/SUP] And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. [SUP]21[/SUP] And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. [SUP]22[/SUP] And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. [SUP]23[/SUP] And the evening and the morning were the fifth day. [SUP]24[/SUP] And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. [SUP]25[/SUP] And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. [SUP]26[/SUP] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. [SUP]27[/SUP] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. [SUP]28[/SUP] And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. [SUP]29[/SUP] And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. [SUP]30[/SUP] And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. [SUP]31[/SUP] And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
( For the sake of this post, I am [ for-the-most-part ] only discussing the 'And' words at the beginning of the verses. And, yes - I know the verse numbers were added later... [ yada yada yada ] )
Each color represents a different "sense and tense" of the use of the word in the context of where it is used. Those of the same color have a similar "sense and tense" of the word.
The orange word is not chronologically-based, as you suggest; rather, it is conditionally-based - having to do with the 'status' of the earth ( in the context ). There is no 'active' sense of the word present ( based on the context ). It is only 'passive'.
The green word, however, is chronologically-based - having an 'active' sense of the word present.
The blue word is a little more 'passive' than the green word, but may still be considered to be chronologically-based.
The pink word is 'active'; however, the "sense and tense" of it is that of 'explanation' / 'extension' rather than 'action'.
The purple word is entirely 'passive'. In the context of the use of these words, "simply 'what is' is being stated" regarding the creation events.
The gray word is a 'passive' extension of the previous phrase / statement.
( My use of the words 'active' and 'passive' in the above statements are intended from the overall "sense and tense" of the contextual point-of-view of the verses -- not the specific rules of the contruct of the 'grammar of the language'. )
My apologies if I am not able to explain myself well enough...
I have, in the past, been told that I have an 'enormous' vocabulary.
However, sometimes, it seems that it does not present itself well when I need all-of-the-right-words to explain what I am wanting to convey.
And, I have been distracted by / with a headache all day...
Hopefully, I have said it well enough to get the point across...
Between events on a single day, or between consecutive days, the notion of indefinite subsequence is somewhat irrelevent and is usually interpreted as 'then' rather than 'and'; but, in the case of Gen 1:1-3 indefinite subsequence makes sense.
E
seems was nothing but a king jimmy issue, I saw an argument, and always like to research these things, Looked up in my bibles, and did not see the word and, So looked it up in Hebrew and did not see it, Only to find it is ONLY in the KJV..
Sometimes I hate that version. lol But I know God can use any version (although the NLT is pretty bad and would not recommend it to anyone)
Sometimes I hate that version. lol But I know God can use any version (although the NLT is pretty bad and would not recommend it to anyone)
Everything I have studied, biblical or otherwise, leads to the conclusion that none of us have a clue what happened originally. There are more than a few pieces missing in the Creation puzzle. Arguing emphatically over events that took place "in the beginning" seems foolish to say the least. When the story of creation was first recorded, I'm convinced it wasn't only for the scholarly to be dissected and analyzed to the nth degree. It was a story to be understood by the intellectual as well the common, about a Creator, the procession of creation, man's part in this world and how sin separates us from our Heavenly Creator. I think if it was supposed to be an actual textbook account, it would have involved more than allegory. Sin that separates us from God is more than just a disobedient action. We are energy, plain and simple. All emotions cause our energy to vibrate at different frequencies. Love, peace, joy, faith and contentment cause a higher vibration. Hate, lust, fear, covetousness, drunkenness and guilt cause lower vibration. This is not New Age it is scientific. Ignoring this aspect of man closes the door to understanding our relationship to God. Gap theory, new earth, old earth, literal or figurative, none of it really matters. This is all just one more argument that divides the body of believers, especially since everybody thinks they are correct. From my observations of what I have seen on this site, the Bible discussions are more like everybody trying to get validations for their own interpretations by convincing others that they are right. Since most people here already think they have it figured out, it becomes less of a learning opportunity and more of a competition. I am not excluding myself. I'm just as guilty as the next guy. Every time I see a "like" I feel validated that I must be on to something if others agree with me. Regardless, I think many people here are great and intelligent (even if they are too blind to admit my findings are no less than genius. Joking!), and I am happy to fellowship with you all. The point I am trying to make is, let us not get wrapped up in any arguments that can be open to interpretation. The emotions that some people exhibit here, are causing sin and separation from God, all while trying to study and know Him better. Be blessed fellow Christian Chatters.