Gift of prophecy

[wattie]

It is biblical that prophecy will cease. 1 Corinthians 13 shows this.

It's only a matter of when that happened.

What the gift of prophecy was about was sharing forth God's Word.

So nowadays.. a pastor can be 'prophesying' without the gift of prophecy.. because they are speaking from God's Word.. the bible.

Prophecy was used by the early christians in churches to form the churches and show that God was with them. They didn't have a completed NT to work from.. so needed other ways to show their authority from Christ. So signs, wonders, prophecy followed them.. to show others they had the authority of Christ.

Nowadays.. we have a complete bible.. the tools used to establish the bible and the early churches have been put away. No need for the gift of tongues,prophecy etc.. because they have done their job. They early churches have been established.. the bible is complete.

Faith hope and love are the remaining abiding spiritual gifts now.

Think about 1 Corithians 13.. what causes the gifts to cease.. is something that was in part... incomplete. It was completed with 'that which is perfect' or 'the perfect thing' coming. Whatever was perfect, was in part.

Jesus second coming isn't something that was 'in part' or 'incomplete'.

Scripture.. is now complete, 'perfect' in the biblical sense of the word. And was 'in part'-- having the Old Testament but no New Testament until the canon was complete.

Complete in itself-- not by humans approving when it was complete by synods and councils.

Ephesians 4 is also related to this in the 'knowledge of the unity of the faith' coming and ministry gifts going up until then.

Faith, hope and love are the remaining abiding supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit. There is no need for anything else. Every thing else has fulfilled it's purpose.. tongues, prophecy, signs and wonders.

Not everything the disciples and apostles did christians can do now. They were at a very early stage in the formation of christianity.. things had not matured.. churches and God's Word were in formation.

Now I know what a pentecostal or charismatic will say-- I don't believe in the Holy Spirit.

This isn't true-- I am just saying the Holy Spirit works in different ways at different times in history.

The Holy Spirit still convicts, rebukes, teaches, guides, seals, indwells, empowers etc..

 

[dalconn]

The gift of prophesy comes from the Holy Spirit, is the Holy Spirit for today? Yes? Okay, now that we have that cleared up you might want to know that 99% of church going folks have no clue what it truly is much less how its used.
Run away from those nut jobs.

my 2¢

 

[Mitspa]

Ok lets start the debate..... now some seem to claim when the cannon was established that the gifts of the Holy Spirit as described in the bible stopped...right? So when we got the bible its truth changed? that's is a odd line of logic! So these Spirit filled gift using Christians came together in a meeting...decided the cannon and came out without the gifts of the Holy Spirit?

 

[The_highwayman]

I just joined a Facebook group called prophecy.
The people on there give each others prophecys

Is this biblical? And does it still exist nowadays?
And how do you get this gift?

There is the gift of prophecy listed in 1 Cor 12 and is for the church today....


Then there is the motive gift of perceiving or prophecy in Romans 12

Then there is general prophecy that is outlined in 1 Cor 14.3 which says....

[SUP]3 [/SUP]But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

 

[The_highwayman]

It is biblical that prophecy will cease. 1 Corinthians 13 shows this.

It's only a matter of when that happened.

What the gift of prophecy was about was sharing forth God's Word.

So nowadays.. a pastor can be 'prophesying' without the gift of prophecy.. because they are speaking from God's Word.. the bible.

Prophecy was used by the early christians in churches to form the churches and show that God was with them. They didn't have a completed NT to work from.. so needed other ways to show their authority from Christ. So signs, wonders, prophecy followed them.. to show others they had the authority of Christ.

Nowadays.. we have a complete bible.. the tools used to establish the bible and the early churches have been put away. No need for the gift of tongues,prophecy etc.. because they have done their job. They early churches have been established.. the bible is complete.

Faith hope and love are the remaining abiding spiritual gifts now.

Think about 1 Corithians 13.. what causes the gifts to cease.. is something that was in part... incomplete. It was completed with 'that which is perfect' or 'the perfect thing' coming. Whatever was perfect, was in part.

Jesus second coming isn't something that was 'in part' or 'incomplete'.

Scripture.. is now complete, 'perfect' in the biblical sense of the word. And was 'in part'-- having the Old Testament but no New Testament until the canon was complete.

Complete in itself-- not by humans approving when it was complete by synods and councils.

Ephesians 4 is also related to this in the 'knowledge of the unity of the faith' coming and ministry gifts going up until then.

Faith, hope and love are the remaining abiding supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit. There is no need for anything else. Every thing else has fulfilled it's purpose.. tongues, prophecy, signs and wonders.

Not everything the disciples and apostles did christians can do now. They were at a very early stage in the formation of christianity.. things had not matured.. churches and God's Word were in formation.

Now I know what a pentecostal or charismatic will say-- I don't believe in the Holy Spirit.

This isn't true-- I am just saying the Holy Spirit works in different ways at different times in history.

The Holy Spirit still convicts, rebukes, teaches, guides, seals, indwells, empowers etc..

Cessationist alert...

 

[mystikmind]

Allot of people confuse prophesy with perception i think. Perception is like any other ability in life, some people have more and some people have less. Your average psychic is merely a perceptive person, and if they did happen to have any supernatural powers you know it doesn't come from God.

 

[sveinen]

i don't stop
scripture got life to it. "not closed lines."
for life, choose life.
"prophecy, like other prayer might not be just sweet if you stay in your sofa all the time."
Take Care!

 

[sveinen]

i don't stop
scripture got life to it. "not closed lines."
for life, choose life.
"prophecy, like other prayer might not be just sweet if you stay in your sofa all the time."
Take Care!

Gift, Yeah.
Life.
Join Holy In.
Pick Thy Cross Holy Up.
Love Thy Neighbour
<3

 

[sveinen]

i had "half a story" of "facebook group with name like so also."
i think they were faulty.
"like standard locust flooding church-ground," maybe - "keeping disciples faulty," like.
"trying to avoid utterance false"
really, i "got service," and the facebook-guys seemed to be of different spirit, maybe.
"well, to any of my knowledge we still can't change the color of our hair."
Go Love

 

[wattie]

Ok lets start the debate..... now some seem to claim when the cannon was established that the gifts of the Holy Spirit as described in the bible stopped...right? So when we got the bible its truth changed? that's is a odd line of logic! So these Spirit filled gift using Christians came together in a meeting...decided the cannon and came out without the gifts of the Holy Spirit?

The bible's truth didn't change. What part of bible truth has changed with prophecy ceasing? 1 Corinthians 13 said it would cease.. it's only a matter of when that happened.

And no-- it wasn't humans deciding that when the bible was complete. It was God using His tools through his followers in His churches and then completing that part of His work.

Tools put down.. work done. No need for those tools.

Bible completed in its own time.. not when men said it was. Like I typed.. it wasn't the synods and councils meeting together to say it was a canon.. the books of the bible were complete from the authors themselves.. by God guiding their hand.

Early Christians did have the gift of prophecy, tongues etc.. that is clear.. it's right there in the bible. But you have to ask yourself what causes these things to cease in 1 Corinthians 13.

If it is the second coming.. that has gotta fit with this scripture. So far with the context of that chapter that I have seen.. it doesn't fit at all.

 

[The_highwayman]

The bible's truth didn't change. What part of bible truth has changed with prophecy ceasing? 1 Corinthians 13 said it would cease.. it's only a matter of when that happened.

And no-- it wasn't humans deciding that when the bible was complete. It was God using His tools through his followers in His churches and then completing that part of His work.

Tools put down.. work done. No need for those tools.

Bible completed in its own time.. not when men said it was. Like I typed.. it wasn't the synods and councils meeting together to say it was a canon.. the books of the bible were complete from the authors themselves.. by God guiding their hand.

Early Christians did have the gift of prophecy, tongues etc.. that is clear.. it's right there in the bible. But you have to ask yourself what causes these things to cease in 1 Corinthians 13.

If it is the second coming.. that has gotta fit with this scripture. So far with the context of that chapter that I have seen.. it doesn't fit at all.

Pssstt...But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<this is not the word or BIble, it is Jesus Christ when he comes back during the day of the Lord....

 

[wattie]

Pssstt...But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<this is not the word or BIble, it is Jesus Christ when he comes back during the day of the Lord....

from: gotquestions.org/cessationism:

The Apostle Paul predicted that the gift of tongues would cease (1 Corinthians 13:8). Here are six proofs that it has already ceased:

1) The apostles, through whom tongues came, were unique in the history of the church. Once their ministry was accomplished, the need for authenticating signs ceased to exist.

2) The miracle (or sign) gifts are only mentioned in the earliest epistles, such as 1 Corinthians. Later books, such as Ephesians and Romans, contain detailed passages on the gifts of the Spirit, but the miracle gifts are not mentioned, although Romans does mention the gift of prophecy. The Greek word translated “prophecy” means “speaking forth” and does not necessarily include prediction of the future.

3) The gift of tongues was a sign to unbelieving Israel that God’s salvation was now available to other nations. See1 Corinthians 14:21-22andIsaiah 28:11-12.

4) Tongues was an inferior gift to prophecy (preaching). Preaching the Word of God edifies believers, whereas tongues does not. Believers are told to seek prophesying over speaking in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:1-3).

5) History indicates that tongues did cease. Tongues are not mentioned at all by the Post-Apostolic Fathers. Other writers such as Justin Martyr, Origen, Chrysostom, and Augustine considered tongues something that happened only in the earliest days of the Church.

6) Current observation confirms that the miracle of tongues has ceased. If the gift were still available today, there would be no need for missionaries to attend language school. Missionaries would be able to travel to any country and speak any language fluently, just as the apostles were able to speak inActs 2. As for the miracle gift of healing, we see in Scripture that healing was associated with the ministry of Jesus and the apostles (Luke 9:1-2). And we see that as the era of the apostles drew to a close, healing, like tongues, became less frequent. The Apostle Paul, who raised Eutychus from the dead (Acts 20:9-12), did not heal Epaphroditus (Philippians 2:25-27), Trophimus (2 Timothy 4:20), Timothy (1 Timothy 5:23), or even himself (2 Corinthians 12:7-9). The reasons for Paul’s “failures to heal” are 1) the gift was never intended to make every Christian well, but to authenticate apostleship; and 2) the authority of the apostles had been sufficiently proved, making further miracles unnecessary.

The reasons stated above are evidence for cessationism. According to1 Corinthians 13:13-14:1, we would do well to “pursue love,” the greatest gift of all. If we are to desire gifts, we should desire to speak forth the Word of God, that all may be edified.

Read more:Is cessationism biblical? What is a cessationist?

 

[Mitspa]

from: gotquestions.org/cessationism:

The Apostle Paul predicted that the gift of tongues would cease (1 Corinthians 13:8). Here are six proofs that it has already ceased:

1) The apostles, through whom tongues came, were unique in the history of the church. Once their ministry was accomplished, the need for authenticating signs ceased to exist.

2) The miracle (or sign) gifts are only mentioned in the earliest epistles, such as 1 Corinthians. Later books, such as Ephesians and Romans, contain detailed passages on the gifts of the Spirit, but the miracle gifts are not mentioned, although Romans does mention the gift of prophecy. The Greek word translated “prophecy” means “speaking forth” and does not necessarily include prediction of the future.

3) The gift of tongues was a sign to unbelieving Israel that God’s salvation was now available to other nations. See1 Corinthians 14:21-22andIsaiah 28:11-12.

4) Tongues was an inferior gift to prophecy (preaching). Preaching the Word of God edifies believers, whereas tongues does not. Believers are told to seek prophesying over speaking in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:1-3).

5) History indicates that tongues did cease. Tongues are not mentioned at all by the Post-Apostolic Fathers. Other writers such as Justin Martyr, Origen, Chrysostom, and Augustine considered tongues something that happened only in the earliest days of the Church.

6) Current observation confirms that the miracle of tongues has ceased. If the gift were still available today, there would be no need for missionaries to attend language school. Missionaries would be able to travel to any country and speak any language fluently, just as the apostles were able to speak inActs 2. As for the miracle gift of healing, we see in Scripture that healing was associated with the ministry of Jesus and the apostles (Luke 9:1-2). And we see that as the era of the apostles drew to a close, healing, like tongues, became less frequent. The Apostle Paul, who raised Eutychus from the dead (Acts 20:9-12), did not heal Epaphroditus (Philippians 2:25-27), Trophimus (2 Timothy 4:20), Timothy (1 Timothy 5:23), or even himself (2 Corinthians 12:7-9). The reasons for Paul’s “failures to heal” are 1) the gift was never intended to make every Christian well, but to authenticate apostleship; and 2) the authority of the apostles had been sufficiently proved, making further miracles unnecessary.

The reasons stated above are evidence for cessationism. According to1 Corinthians 13:13-14:1, we would do well to “pursue love,” the greatest gift of all. If we are to desire gifts, we should desire to speak forth the Word of God, that all may be edified.

Read more:Is cessationism biblical? What is a cessationist?

Don't get it? Don't make any sense! and don't relate at all to how the bible describes this gift...

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

 

[Mitspa]

The bible's truth didn't change. What part of bible truth has changed with prophecy ceasing? 1 Corinthians 13 said it would cease.. it's only a matter of when that happened.

And no-- it wasn't humans deciding that when the bible was complete. It was God using His tools through his followers in His churches and then completing that part of His work.

Tools put down.. work done. No need for those tools.

Bible completed in its own time.. not when men said it was. Like I typed.. it wasn't the synods and councils meeting together to say it was a canon.. the books of the bible were complete from the authors themselves.. by God guiding their hand.

Early Christians did have the gift of prophecy, tongues etc.. that is clear.. it's right there in the bible. But you have to ask yourself what causes these things to cease in 1 Corinthians 13.

If it is the second coming.. that has gotta fit with this scripture. So far with the context of that chapter that I have seen.. it doesn't fit at all.

Your the one that is claiming that after we got the cannon ..all of a sudden ..parts of it about the Holy Spirit became untrue. That now a believer who has the Holy Spirit no longer has the Holy Spirit of the bible.

And again your saying when someone wrote an epistle...all of a sudden they lose a gift of the Spirit? what in the world? What would make anyone think that is logical or honest? As Paul was writing the epistle about the gifts...he knew they was about go away after he wrote the epistle?

And its absolutely clear that which is perfect is Christ...face to face ...come on !

 

[The_highwayman]

from: gotquestions.org/cessationism:

The Apostle Paul predicted that the gift of tongues would cease (1 Corinthians 13:8). Here are six proofs that it has already ceased:

1) The apostles, through whom tongues came, were unique in the history of the church. Once their ministry was accomplished, the need for authenticating signs ceased to exist.

2) The miracle (or sign) gifts are only mentioned in the earliest epistles, such as 1 Corinthians. Later books, such as Ephesians and Romans, contain detailed passages on the gifts of the Spirit, but the miracle gifts are not mentioned, although Romans does mention the gift of prophecy. The Greek word translated “prophecy” means “speaking forth” and does not necessarily include prediction of the future.

3) The gift of tongues was a sign to unbelieving Israel that God’s salvation was now available to other nations. See1 Corinthians 14:21-22andIsaiah 28:11-12.

4) Tongues was an inferior gift to prophecy (preaching). Preaching the Word of God edifies believers, whereas tongues does not. Believers are told to seek prophesying over speaking in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:1-3).

5) History indicates that tongues did cease. Tongues are not mentioned at all by the Post-Apostolic Fathers. Other writers such as Justin Martyr, Origen, Chrysostom, and Augustine considered tongues something that happened only in the earliest days of the Church.

6) Current observation confirms that the miracle of tongues has ceased. If the gift were still available today, there would be no need for missionaries to attend language school. Missionaries would be able to travel to any country and speak any language fluently, just as the apostles were able to speak inActs 2. As for the miracle gift of healing, we see in Scripture that healing was associated with the ministry of Jesus and the apostles (Luke 9:1-2). And we see that as the era of the apostles drew to a close, healing, like tongues, became less frequent. The Apostle Paul, who raised Eutychus from the dead (Acts 20:9-12), did not heal Epaphroditus (Philippians 2:25-27), Trophimus (2 Timothy 4:20), Timothy (1 Timothy 5:23), or even himself (2 Corinthians 12:7-9). The reasons for Paul’s “failures to heal” are 1) the gift was never intended to make every Christian well, but to authenticate apostleship; and 2) the authority of the apostles had been sufficiently proved, making further miracles unnecessary.

The reasons stated above are evidence for cessationism. According to1 Corinthians 13:13-14:1, we would do well to “pursue love,” the greatest gift of all. If we are to desire gifts, we should desire to speak forth the Word of God, that all may be edified.

Read more:Is cessationism biblical? What is a cessationist?

Did you ever wonder why 1 Cor 13 is put between 1 Cor 12 & 14?

Paul is telling the church that you cannot do anything he listed in 1 Cor 12 or 1 Cor 14 without Love....

Did you ever seem to notice that the 9 Gifts of 1 Cor 12 are listed in 1 Cor 13 and do you understand that Paul was not saying the gifts have ceased, because the perfect that has come is the Bible. This is because the Bible was not fully given when he wrote that....Paul said that if he operated in all 9 Gifts of the Holy Ghost and did not do it in love, then it was not from from the Spirit....and is a fruitless work....Jesus says the same thing in Matt 7.

The gifts will cease when that which is perfect shall come and that is the return of the Lord Jesus Christ....The gifts will also cease because when Jesus returns the work of the Holy Ghost in the New covenant and age of Grace will also cease...


For the record and correction...Prophesying talked about in 1 Cor 14 is not simply preaching the word....nor is it talking about someone preaching the word...because 1 Cor 14.26 refutes that idea.

Besides 1 Cor 14.3 says that prophesying is speaking word of edification, exhortation and comfort to men, and there are plenty of preachers, particularly cessation preachers that never preach that way and instead they vomit words of condemnation, discouragement and anger....

We will never agree....but i can tell you the 9 Gifts are alive and for the church today and those that see them manifest and then call them works of the devil are no better than the pharisees that claimed Jesus was doing his works of the devil

 

[wattie]

Well, when I call operation gifts for now as the work of the devil.. I wouldn't say it if churches were trying to operate them as the bible's boundaries say they should be operated. Even though I do believe they are no longer in operation.. except for faith hope and love.. if people decide to try and use them.. they need to abide by all the boundaries about how they should be used.

But I have not seen many pentecostal or charismatics at all attempting to use them the way Paul admonished the likes of the church at Corinth to use them.

E.g.. a church emphasising speaking and tongues.. and then speaking not in languages but gibberish.. and also putting tongues above prophecy. Both are not biblical ways of using them.

Tongues were for a sign not to them that believe but to the unbeliever.. how many churches do you know that abide by this?

'Let all things be done decently and in order' how many pentecostal and charismatic churches go into a lot of disorder when claiming tongues or prophecy?

I haven't seen a charismatic or pentecostal church abide by the biblical boundaries from the bible yet.

The church of Corinth is not an example to follow.. they weren't getting it right. They are an example to avoid.

This is another reason I believe the sign and ministry gifts are not in operation now, because very few seem to abide by the biblical example of how they should be done anyway.

 

[Mitspa]

Well, when I call operation gifts for now as the work of the devil.. I wouldn't say it if churches were trying to operate them as the bible's boundaries say they should be operated. Even though I do believe they are no longer in operation.. except for faith hope and love.. if people decide to try and use them.. they need to abide by all the boundaries about how they should be used.

But I have not seen many pentecostal or charismatics at all attempting to use them the way Paul admonished the likes of the church at Corinth to use them.

E.g.. a church emphasising speaking and tongues.. and then speaking not in languages but gibberish.. and also putting tongues above prophecy. Both are not biblical ways of using them.

Tongues were for a sign not to them that believe but to the unbeliever.. how many churches do you know that abide by this?

'Let all things be done decently and in order' how many pentecostal and charismatic churches go into a lot of disorder when claiming tongues or prophecy?

I haven't seen a charismatic or pentecostal church abide by the biblical boundaries from the bible yet.

The church of Corinth is not an example to follow.. they weren't getting it right. They are an example to avoid.

This is another reason I believe the sign and ministry gifts are not in operation now, because very few seem to abide by the biblical example of how they should be done anyway.

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

 

[The_highwayman]

Well, when I call operation gifts for now as the work of the devil.. I wouldn't say it if churches were trying to operate them as the bible's boundaries say they should be operated. Even though I do believe they are no longer in operation.. except for faith hope and love.. if people decide to try and use them.. they need to abide by all the boundaries about how they should be used.

But I have not seen many pentecostal or charismatics at all attempting to use them the way Paul admonished the likes of the church at Corinth to use them.

E.g.. a church emphasising speaking and tongues.. and then speaking not in languages but gibberish.. and also putting tongues above prophecy. Both are not biblical ways of using them.

Tongues were for a sign not to them that believe but to the unbeliever.. how many churches do you know that abide by this?

'Let all things be done decently and in order' how many pentecostal and charismatic churches go into a lot of disorder when claiming tongues or prophecy?

I haven't seen a charismatic or pentecostal church abide by the biblical boundaries from the bible yet.

The church of Corinth is not an example to follow.. they weren't getting it right. They are an example to avoid.

This is another reason I believe the sign and ministry gifts are not in operation now, because very few seem to abide by the biblical example of how they should be done anyway.

there are other gifts besides tongues and interpretation and all you cessation followers do is zero in on tongues and interpretations and then try to tell us prophecy is preaching, which it is not.

Suffice to say, you would not know a Holy ghost gift if it bit you on your bum....

 

[notuptome]

there are other gifts besides tongues and interpretation and all you cessation followers do is zero in on tongues and interpretations and then try to tell us prophecy is preaching, which it is not.

Suffice to say, you would not know a Holy ghost gift if it bit you on your bum....

Spoken like a man void of understanding.

1 Corinthians 13 zeros in on those three gifts. Chaff against the word of God if you wish but there is no changing what is written.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[The_highwayman]

Spoken like a man void of understanding.

1 Corinthians 13 zeros in on those three gifts. Chaff against the word of God if you wish but there is no changing what is written.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The other gifts I was referring to are listed in 1 Cor 12 not I cor 13....