Gift of prophecy

The_highwayman · Feb 17, 2015

I always have to laugh very hard at folks like Roger and wattie,who always challenge those who believe the gifts are for today. It is always cessasionists that are the experts in the gifts and proclaim to be the resident experts in Gifts even though they do not believe in them...s

I wonder if they realize that it takes as much emotional, physical, mental and spiritual energy to have faith in all of God's word that it takes to refute a part of God's word....

notuptome · Feb 17, 2015

The_highwayman said:

Thanks but I'm well aware of that.

It is fairly evident that during the inter testament period there were temporary gifts given to found the church and establish the authority of the church leadership. That leadership being the apostles and disciples that they made as the gospel spread throughout the known world.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome · Feb 17, 2015

The_highwayman said:

Funny I cannot laugh for those who are deceived and cannot believe apart from counterfeit gifts given that contradict Gods word. The Holy Spirit only acts within Gods word. He never speaks of Himself only what He has received of the Father.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Mitspa · Feb 17, 2015

notuptome said:

Its the Word of God and the Spirit of God that does not change because some don't agree or understand....
The bible tells us who and what the Holy Spirit is...the bible tells us the gifts of the Holy Spirit and to change the Holy Spirit is to change God Himself. Now do all enter into the biblical standard...clearly not...why? Because they have been taught and believe a lie. the reason you guys don't have the gifts of the Spirit "you have not because you ask not"

Mitspa · Feb 17, 2015

notuptome said:

So I have what the bible clearly describes...you do not? who is deceived and who has a counterfeit religion? Who has a form of godliness and no power?

Mitspa · Feb 17, 2015

2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received,

This is a different spirit...its not the Spirit that God gave at the beginning of the "church"

How do we know the Spirit given at the founding of our faith? Read the bible!

The_highwayman · Feb 17, 2015

notuptome said:

What is not funny is that you do not believe in the Holy Spirit or his gifts are for today, or how you cessation folks resort to condemning those who do believe and then give more credit to Satan's power than the Holy Ghosts power...

DiscipleDave · Feb 17, 2015

Dalisa said:

God reveals what is to come to people, He has done this, He does do this, He will continue to do this. God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. Now if it is True prophesy or not, that is a different story. Scriptures are clear that you can tell a True prophet from a false prophet, by if what they say shall come to pass, does come to pass, or does not come to pass. If someone who prophesizes something to happen, and it does not happen when they say it should happen is a false prophet. Anyone who teaches anything that is contrary to Scriptures is also a false prophet. Many divining spirit can foretell the future, However these spirits are always mixed with lies and things contrary to the Scriptures, this is how you can try the Spirits. if one claims to have the gift of prophesy, yet what they say is contrary to the Word of God, they are false and are listening to a divining spirit. If what they say should happen, does not happen when they said it would, this is also a divining spirit. But if someone says they have the gift of prophesy and what they prophesy is not contrary to Scriptures, then it would behoove you to hearken to them, But if they ever prophesy and it does not come to pass when they said it should, or they prophesy something that is contrary to Scriptures, then that is a false prophet, one that should not be hearkened to.

Of coarse it does, despite what satan teaches people today. Even after John the Baptist, there were prophets in the New Testament. The Apostle Paul even went as far as to place them in a certain order in the Church and teaches us that there is a gift of prophesy.

You pray for it. Be careful what you pray for though. What is coming upon the Earth and upon mankind and the Church is horrible, and you will cry much for the pain and suffering that you know is coming to people who are unaware of it.

^i^ Responding to OP

wattie · Feb 19, 2015

Question:

Did those who had the gift of prophecy in the New Testament ever have to pray for it.. or learn it?

Weren't they just given it?

And then ya- it was 100 percent right every time because it was from the Holy Spirit.

presidente · Feb 19, 2015

Mitspa said:

It's not necessarily wrong to pray for signs. In Acts 4, the apostles prayed for God to stretch forth His hand to do signs and wonders for the sake of Jesus. They weren't asking for signs so they themselves could believe. They already believed and wanted others to believe.

Jesus said an evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign? But does that mean all who seek after a sign are from a wicked and adulterous generation? That interpretation is the logical error of affirming the consequent.

Consider this example of that logical error.
People who commit suicide are dead.
George Washington is dead.
Therefore George Washington committed suicide.

But he didn't. He had a fever and probably died from being bled to death to get rid of the excess humor of blood, according to the archaic medical practices of the time.

The following follows the same logical pattern as the Washington example.

The wicked and adulterous seek signs.
So and so seeks a sign.
He must be wicked and adulterous.

This is fallacious reasoning. Witches drink water. You drink water. Does that make you a witch.

Anyway, the apostles weren't wicked or adulterous for asking for signs and wonders to be done. There were also kings in Israel who asked for signs and God granted them. A shadow moved backwards for Hezekiah as a sign that Hezekiah requested.

presidente · Feb 19, 2015

notuptome said:

Sorry, Bro, the Bible still doesn't teach that. The Jews require a sign. It's what they wanted. But that doesn't mean that God didn't want to give Gentiles signs and times.

Acts 15
[SUP]12 [/SUP]The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them.
(NIV)

presidente · Feb 19, 2015

Ugly said:

Sometimes people use the word 'personal prophecy' to refer to one individual getting a prophecy for another individual. Critics of this sort of thing will say it's like "Christian fortune telling."

Honestly, I think some of the criticism comes from ignorance of the Bible. If you actually look at some of the types of prophecies given in the Bible, there are some detailed personal things.

There are various prophecies about individuals for various topics. For example, there are prophecies that to individuals about their being the next king. There is a prophecy about a king getting better. There is at least one prophecy about a king recovering from a disease. There are prophecies about people not recovering from diseases.

If you look at the passage about prophets, the 'like unto Moses' passage, Israelites were forbidden from going to those who practice divination, necromancy, etc. But they were specifically allowed to go to a prophet and enquire of the Lord.

So someone was specifically allowed to go ask a prophet where his lost donkeys were. Saul asked Samuel about his prophets lost donkeys. Elijah rebuked one of the kings because he went to enquire of Beelzebub the god of Ekron about whether he would recover. The rebuke was "Is there not a God in Israel...?" That king was supposed to go ask a prophet of the Lord that question if He wanted to know. It was very clearly allowed for him to do so. Modern critics might call that 'fortune telling' but it is a legitimate way prophecy worked.

Throughout the Old Testament, we see that one is allowed to enquire of the Lord through a prophet. If someone engaged in idolatry and then enquired of Yahweh through a prophet, Yahweh may not like that. I can think of an example of that, too. But the sin was not of enquiring of the Lord through a prophet.

Enquiring of the LORD through a prophet is a kosher biblical, thing to do. Not like going to a soothsaying fortune teller.
Moses wished that all of God's people were prophets and the LORD would put His Spirit upon all of them. As Joel prophesied, we now live in the last days where part of God's agenda is to pour out His Spirit upon all flesh. The scripture says 'your sons and daughters shall prophesy.'

Paul instructs those who believe in Jesus to covet to prophesy. The Lord commanded the church to let the prophets speak to or three, and that ye may all prophesy one by one.

So how does this apply to personal prophecy? In Acts, we see an example of personal prophecy. Agabus comes to Paul and gives him a prophecy involving his belt. Agabus had already prophesied a famine that took place, preparing the church for it. Paul may have had other personal prophecies. In every city, the Spirit witnessed of the troubles that awaited him in Jerusalem.

It is not forbidden to even go up to another believer and ask if that believer has a word from the Lord for you. I've done that before. I'm not loaded down by this man-made law that it is fortune-telling to enquire of the Lord through another believer who has the Spirit. But on one occasion, a teenager shared a testimony about getting the gift of prophecy at a conference and hearing God's voice. Partly to have a chance to encourage this young person, I asked if the Lord had anything for me. I think I prayed for the young person in question as well. I shared encouragement because the word fit well with my calling and was encouragement that I will at some point get back into a kind of ministry that I used to do and wish to do again.

I've also sensed at times that the Lord would give a word for someone or certain people at a meeting, and sure enough it happened. I don't really move in prophesying, at least not that I realize usually. I have gotten words of knowledge, and I've experienced it at least a couple of times that I word of knowledge I'd just gotten about someone was included in someone else's prophecy. I had that happen with a stranger. But part of the word I got was included and the other part wasn't, and I didn't have a chance to share that other part.

presidente · Feb 19, 2015

wattie said:

Sometimes the Spirit gives a gift to someone when they haven't requested it. He can also give gifts after we have prayed for them.

I Corinthians 14 says to covet to prophesy.

Mark 11:24 says, "Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them."

So we are told to desire to prophesy, and if we pray for what we desire and receive it, can't we receive the gift of prophecy.

I Corinthians 14:13 tells the one who speaks in a tongue to pray that he may interpret. So it is possible to receive a gift (in this case interpretation) in response to prayer.

presidente · Feb 19, 2015

notuptome said:

This is what is known as human reasoning. The Bible doesn't teach that gifts would cease after a time of establishing the authority of the church leadership or spreading the gospel throughout the whole world. The scriptures teach that spiritual gifts are given 'as the Spirit wills' and that is still the doctrine of the Bible.
For the cause of Christ
Roger[/QUOTE]

presidente · Feb 19, 2015

wattie said:

This isn't a proof. This is a man-made theory not taught by scripture. The Bible doesn't teach that once the ministry of the apostles was accomplished, that the need for authenticating signs ceased to exist. That doesn't fit with the fact that Acts shows two other men who weren't apostles doing miracles (Philip and Stephen.) A few decades later, by the time you get to I Corinthians, a church made up mostly of former pagans has 'regular believers' who operate in the working of miracles.

For those who hold to a futuristic view of Revelation, the two witnesses, who will prophesy and work miracles, are yet to come. Even preterists would have to place them after the last 'amen' at the end of the book of Revelation, wouldn't they?

It makes no sense to argue that prophesying has ceased, only to argue that it unceases again. Why did it cease in the first place?

Prophesying is supernatural, speaking as moved by the Spirit, whether it is about the future or not. The Spirit says what the Spirit wants to say.

This is also a lame argument. Look at the book of Revelation, believed by many to be the last one. We see spectacular predictive prophecy, spectacular visions, and prediction of future miracles.

We also see a lot of healings near the very end of the book of Acts on Malta. Assuming there are no miracles at the time of the latter books when the doctrine has already been established about these gifts is circular reasoning. Also, it ignores all the references to prophecy, miracles, and other gifts in the second century.

That is a totally convoluted interpretation. A sign that salvation is available to other nations? Where does either passage state that? Romans 11 deals with Israel rejecting truth and the way being opened up to Gentiles, but where is that in either passage?

Paul makes a very clear point from Isaiah 28. God spoke through men of other tongues and other lips. If we learn a bit of history, we know this happens before the northern kingdom were carried off by the Assyrians who spoke another language, Aramaic or something else, that Hebrews for the most part didn't know. The soldiers would have barked orders at the naked, lined up Hebrews as they were marched into captivity, "Get back in line. Keep your head down." God spoke through men of other tongues and other lips. Yet for all that, 'ye will not hear Me.'

And with tongues, we see a sign, a fulfilled prophecy, applied from that passage. Though God spoke with other languages, the people still didn't listen. Unbelievers (he doesn't specify Jewish unbelievers only) who hear all speak with tongues say, 'ye are mad.' Compare to the scoffers at tongues in Acts 2.

Paul doesn't draw out some long eschatological point from this passage. He makes his own point and it is explained in the passage.

Wow, do some word studies on 'preaching' and 'teaching' and prophesying. Preaching is usually used in contexts referring to evangelistic preaching to those who haven't believed yet. Teaching is generally what is done in church, preaching and prophesying. In the Old Testament, the prophet prophesied. He got a message from God, often given as a direct quote preceded by 'thus saith the Lord.' God gave Moses the Torah. Priests andLevits later taught the Torah. The Bible doesn't say they 'prophesied' the Torah by reading it. Moses prophesied it. They repeated prophecy that already exist and 'taught' it. They'd explain what had already been revealed.

Peter describes prophesying by saying 'holy men of old spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.' That could also be translated as carried along by the Holy Ghost. The Spirit of God gave men words to say. Prophesying is speaking (or communicating through other means) under the moving of the Holy Ghost. Teachers can explain what has already been revealed to prophets in the scripture. Reading old prophecies isn't the same thing as prophesying.

But notice this point has nothing at all to do with tongue ceasing.

This statement is false. Irenaeus wrote of brethren speaking in tongues. Apparently he was familiar with it along with prophecy, foreknowledge, and various other gifts in the late second century. Ignorance of stuff like this really disappoints me with cessationists who presume to write blanket statements about church history. Isn't Eusebius' Ecclesiastical hHstory a kind of go-to text for this sort of literature? Extant bits of Irenaeus are preserved in Eusebius history.

Btw, show me the quote from Justin Martyr.

Also, we shouldn't base doctrine on Augustine or Chrysostom's experience or lack thereof in a certain area. In his later years, Augustine became enthusiastic about documenting miracles.

Ignorance of the scripture and lack of careful reading. There is no reason to think that Peter preached the Gospel in tongues. We don't have any evidence that the 120 explained the Gospel when they spoke of the wondrous works of God. They could be saying the kinds of things we read in the Psalms. We just don't know, and we shouldn't base doctrine on what the Bible does not say.

In I Corinthians 14, the one who prays in tongues has 'unfruitful' understanding. There is no reason to think that those who spoke in tongues in other contexts knew what they were saying. But Peter preached a well reasoned sermon in Acts 2, maybe in Aramaic, Hebrew, or Greek. It was in some language that the crowd understood. There is no reason to read tongues into this sermon. God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

At the Azusa Street Revival, there were experiences of someone coming in and understanding a tongue in their own language. I've found about five sources for this sort of things from historical documents at that time. Early Pentecostals also experienced people who knew the language verifying their interpretation. Similar things have happened since. Some of the Pentecostals had already been taught this theory about the missionary use of tongues, something the Bible doesn't teach. It didn't pan out. They probably thought the experiences of tongues with people understanding them would just happen on the mission field. But God hasn't guaranteed this or given us a clear example of it in scripture, not of someone preaching and explaining the Gospel in tongues without knowing the language.

It's silly to use that as evidence. We just know that the man was sick and that God had mercy on him. He could have been healed miraculously or in a slower more mundane way. The passage doesn't say.

This is also a silly line of reasoning. Why? Because Paul got sick EARLY in his ministry, before doing the great miracles in Ephesus, before healing all those sick people late in his ministry on Malta right before he got to Rome. Galatians tells us that because of an infirmity Paul came to the Galatians. They would have been willing to give him their eyes. He may have had an eye problem. Paul delivered a letter to Galatia in Acts 16, so the illness had to occur before Acts 16.

Why didn't he heal himself early on?

the whole line of reasoning treats healing and miracles as if they are superhero powers. In Acts 4, the apostles pray for God to stretch out His hand to do signs and wonders. They'd done miracles before, but the miracles weren't completely under their control. They were dependent on God. In Luke, when Jesus was ministering, on one occasion, the power of God was present to heal the sick. Why did Peter pray before raising Dorcas/Tabitha from the dead if it was just some automatic power that he exercised at will without regard to his own faith or the will of God.

Paul declared a man healed on one occasion when he saw that the man had the faith to be healed.

The gospels show us that healing was related to Christ's compassion. The Bible never says miracles are to 'authenticate apostleship.' Old Testament prophets did miracles before Jesus appointed the 12. Philip and Stephen weren't of the 12 and they did miracles. I Corinthians 12 refers to the 'working of miracles' as a gift that members of the body are given as the Spirit wills.

More bunk man-made theories. The Bible doesn't teach this. The Bible shows the word being confirmed with signs and wonders over and over and over again.

If it were a matter of just doing it enough, why when Peter goes to Joppa, doesn't he say, "Well, folks, you see this crippled guy Aeneas here. Well, you'd like me to declare him healed in Jesus name. but you see, the miracles are for confirming me as an apostle and my message as authentic. And that has already been done when I did miracles in Jerusalem. I know you'd like to see the miracle, but reading this hear account of me healing people in Jerusalem.... where you did not see it with your own eyes...serves the exact same purpose as you seeing me heal this man here."

Why did Paul heal if all those miracles had already confirmed the Gospel in Jerusalem?

presidente · Feb 19, 2015

wattie said:

The Bible doesn't teach the theory that the 'completed Bible' replaces spiritual gifts. That is not part of 'the faith once delivered to the saints.'

Look at verse 11. You are putting yourself in a superior position to Paul and the New Testament authors. You are assuming you know the Gospel better than those who wrote it.

The coming of the perfect will make the speech, thoughts, and understanding of Paul when he was writing the New Testament seem childish in comparison to his speech, knowledge, and understanding after the perfect is complete. Do you think you understand the Gospel better than Paul did?

That argument is sophistry. What does that have to do with any verse in the text? Imperfection is to be replaced by perfection/completeness.

Perfection comes at the return of Christ. Let scripture interpret scripture. Let Paul's own comments in the very epistle interpret the passage for us.

I Corinthians 1:7,
So that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

It is clear that Paul did not envision a time between the writing of this epistle and the Lord's return in which the Corinthians and all believers, to whom the epistle is written, should come behind in any of the spiritual gifts he would write about in this epistle.

This clears up what he would later expound upon in chapter 13.

Eisegesis. There is nothing in the text to indicate that Paul has a completed canon in mind in I Corinthians 13. Look at verse 11. Paul wasn't alive at the completion of the canon. The coming of the perfect is something that he will experience.

Paul continues on to write about the resurrection.

Look at topics raised in this chapter and topics mentioned in the rest of the epistle.

Chapter 13-
tongues.... prophecy.... the coming of the perfect.
Chapters 15-16
tongues....prophecy.....the state of the believer in the resurrection at the parousia of Christ.

I Corinthians 13 says nothing about signs and wonders ceasing. Btw, do you believe the prophesying, miracle-working two witnesses are still yet to come?

Mitspa · Feb 20, 2015

presidente said:

What? signs confirm the gospel...they follow after those that believe and teach the truth. But it is a wicked and perverse generation that seeks after signs....Just as Jesus Christ said....I don't care what kind of mans logic you try to justify it with.

Signs follow us, we don't follow after them...if you do you are rejecting the Lords Words and will be led astray. Seek first sound doctrine and the signs will follow after.

Mitspa · Feb 20, 2015

wattie said:

Lots of nuts in the charismatic groups...but be sure that the Holy Spirit is still 100 % the same Holy Spirit.

presidente · Feb 20, 2015

Mitspa said:

A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, but not everyone who seeks a sign is wicked or adulterous.
Witches drink water, but not everyone who drinks water is a witch.
People who commit suicide die. But not everyone who is dead committed suicide.

The apostles prayed for God to stretch forth His hand to do signs and wonders. They did not pray this because they are wicked or adulterous.

If you add to the Lord's word, you can also go astray. I didn't say believers are supposed to 'follow signs' either. Sometimes in scripture, miracles or signs also preceded the preaching of the word as in the case of the man healed at the Gate Beautiful.

Eva1218 · Feb 20, 2015

I believe prophecy is still active today thus we must try the spirit if it is of GOD or not. Now the end times Prophecy is complete we are just living through it. GOD has given those the Gift of Prophecy for the edifying of the church. Being that this is a very debatable topic the best thing to do is seek GOD HE will let you know.

Blessings!!!!!!!

Gift of prophecy

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