Grace Versus The Law

Skinski7 · Dec 9, 2012

You slip and slide around the fundamental issue I bring up of rebellion/willful sin.

You are attempting to mark all sin as the same. All sin is not the same.

Willful sin will condemn you.

Those who are in Christ do not willfully sin for they walk by a faith which works by love. They love God and love their neighbour and their hearts are pure. I don't think I have ever read a post of yours contending for heart purity.

I don't condemn anyone. I simply convey what the Bible plainly teaches.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

You have to explain away those scriptures as meaning something else than what they plainly say.

Also passages like this...

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

And this...

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

And this...

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

And these...

ph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

Jesus taught that people must repent or perish. Repentance is where the rebellion to God ceases. It's not hard to understand. Repentance does not make one perfect, but it does produce obedience from the heart (Rom 6:17). Obedience from the heart means we obey righteousness unto holiness the end of which is eternal life.

It is a beautiful message which many in the world despise, especially many who profess Jesus Christ as Lord.

The religious people have always been the biggest critics of truth of God. Back in Jeremiah's day they did not receive it, nor in Jesus day. It is no different today.

Jesus said FEW will be saved. MANY who call Him Lord will be rejected because they never knew Him and remained workers of iniquity.

zone · Dec 9, 2012

Crossfire said:

"The commandments, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet (have an evil desire), and any other commandment, are summed up in the single command, You shall love your neighbor as [you do] yourself. Love does no wrong to one’s neighbor [it never hurts anybody]. Therefore love meets all the requirements and is the fulfilling of the Law." - Romans 13: 9 - 10

These day's there seems to be a lot of confusion concerning grace and how it relates to the Law. While the 10 Commandments are still very much so a part of the Law, we are no longer under the Law but under grace. It was the 10 Commandments that were written on stone, and were referred to as "the ministry of death" in 2 Corinthians 3:7.

That doesn't mean we are lawless or law breakers, however. Jesus came to fulfill the Law. The problem was not the Law. The Law is Holy. The problem is that an external written code, one written on tablets of stone, is powerless to change the heart of men. God never gave the Law for that purpose.

The ceremonial laws were a foreshadow of Christ, Christ being the substance of those things, fulfilled that part of the Law Himself. The moral law (10 commandments) was fulfilled in Christ by love. They are also fulfilled in us, through Christ, by love as we bear the fruit of the Spirit (the first being love) through walking after the Spirit in grace.

"For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." - Galatians 5:14

So, it is not that we do not keep the moral law of God, but that we do not keep it by simple outward observance of the letter of the Law, that is impossible. We cannot do it! Even if we tried. We keep His commandments, by the inward transformation of our hearts as the Spirit writes the Law on our hearts and we work out what HE has worked IN us! So we are ministers of the New Covenant, "not of the letter but of the Spirit."

This is the Law of the Spirit of LIFE in Christ Jesus, that sets us free from the Law of sin and death, that we walk in the Spirit. Romans 8:1 is a favorite verse that people love to quote half of. We often hear, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus." Why don't we quote the whole verse? The second half of that verse says, "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

You cannot walk after the Spirit while breaking the moral laws of God. You cannot keep the moral laws of God without being born of the Spirit and walking after the Spirit. More importantly, you cannot think yourself saved if you choose to walk the broad path, practicing lawlessness. You will hear, "depart from Me I never knew you" because unrepentant sin is evidence that you have willingly turned your back on God and have rejected His grace by pursuing the lusts of the flesh instead of choosing to abide in the Spirit which is the reason God gives us grace in the first place. In other words, your willingness to sin is the result of you choosing the World over God, evidence of separation existing between you and God.

REAL Grace, is freedom from the bondage of sin. How do we know what sin is apart from the Law? The Law was given for a purpose, and it still serves that purpose: "Whom the Son sets free is free indeed!"

"Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister is still in the darkness. Anyone who loves their brother and sister lives in the light, and there is nothing in them to make them stumble. But anyone who hates a brother or sister is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness. They do not know where they are going, because the darkness has blinded them." - 1 John 2:9-11

"Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

This is how we know that we live in him and he in us: He has given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God. And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

We love because he first loved us. Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister." - 1st John 4: 11 - 21

good post Crossfire

zone

Skinski7 · Dec 9, 2012

Abiding said:

Well why don't you answer the question that I asked that pastor then.

Presumption is not necessarily willful sin and here is an example.

Act 23:1 And Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day.
Act 23:2 And the high priest Ananias commanded them that stood by him to smite him on the mouth.
Act 23:3 Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee, thou whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law?
Act 23:4 And they that stood by said, Revilest thou God's high priest?
Act 23:5 Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people.

zone · Dec 9, 2012

Crossfire said:

hi Crossfire

okay.
but we are in right relationship with God through the reconciliation Jesus accomplished.
holiness is the work the Holy Spirit is working in us, conforming us to Jesus.
and we respond. some quickly, for some it takes a little longer.
but it's a lifetime....agree?
i also agree unconfessed sin can lead to big trouble.
love zone.

zone · Dec 9, 2012

Skinski7 said:

Like the following pastor.

I asked him this...
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]His response (red emphasis mine)...

Thus he teaches that grace is in fact a license to sin. He won't go so far to say that you "should" sin yet he clearly teaches that "you can sin and not surely die." This pastor is one of many who are deceiving multitudes of people.

The pastor clearly believes in Penal Substitution and thus preaches a sin gospel due to the fundamental error he clings to.

he-r-e-t-i-c.
reported.

Skinski7 · Dec 9, 2012

zone said:

The question I would ask is this...

If you have a "right relationship with God through the reconciliation Jesus accomplished" can you willfully sin and remain "reconciled and in a right relationship with God"?

Skinski7 · Dec 9, 2012

zone said:

Penal substitutionary atonement - Theopedia, an encyclopedia of Biblical Christianity

You would have to label all the early church fathers as heretics too.

The Ante-Nicene Fathers (10 Volume Set)

Volume 1: Apostolic Fathers, Justin Martyr, Inrenaeus
Volume 2: Hermas, Tatian, Athenagoras, Theophilus, Clement of Alexandria
Volume 3: Tertullian
Volume 4: Tertullian (IV), Minucius Felix, Commodian, Origen
Volume 5: Hippolytus, Cyprian, Caius, Novatian, Appendix
Volume 6: Gregory Thaumaturgus, Dionysius the Great, Julius Africanus, Anatolius and Minor Writers, Methodius, Arnobius
Volume 7: Lactantius, Venantius, Asterius, Victorinus, Dionysius, Apostolic Teaching and Constitutions, Homily, and Liturgies
Volume 8: Twelve Patriarchs, Excerpts and Epistles, The Clementina, Aprocryphal Gospels andActs, Syriac Documents
Volume 9: Gospel of Peter, Diatessaron, Testament of Abraham, Epistles of Clement, Origen and Miscellaneous Works
Volume 10: Bibliography, General Index, Annotated Index of Authors and Works

zone · Dec 9, 2012

Skinski7 said:

you mean can i remain in or return to bondage to sin? NO.

but i know your sad view of willful sin.
you think you don't have any. yet i see you and your guru sin willfully regularly.
wanna know how?

(i've counted at least 12 commandments you break...probably every day....ouchie)

hey skinski -

according to John, the disciple Jesus loved, do you have sin...right now?

i know you've got a loophole for this one - just like The Pharisees did.
but fortunately the greek won't allow it. and the scriptures are God breathed. but give it your best shot.

Abiding · Dec 9, 2012

Skinski7 said:

Well why don't you answer the question that I asked that pastor then.

Presumption is not necessarily willful sin and here is an example.

Act 23:1 And Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day.
Act 23:2 And the high priest Ananias commanded them that stood by him to smite him on the mouth.
Act 23:3 Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee, thou whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law?
Act 23:4 And they that stood by said, Revilest thou God's high priest?
Act 23:5 Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people.

Well because you didnt ask me....mr. try to accuse people of saying what they didnt say.

That is just so sleezy...and why i usually wont even talk to you

zone · Dec 9, 2012

Abiding said:

ya....what wuz i thinking

but i do Crossfire's OP.
refreshing.

Abiding · Dec 9, 2012

zone said:

Crossfires capable of good work. Im glad hes got me blocked
Id hate him to see this.

zone · Dec 9, 2012

Abiding said:

bumpity bump....

unclefester · Dec 9, 2012

Abiding said:

Ditto. I liked the OP too. Luckily for us, he'll never know ... lol

loveme1 · Dec 9, 2012

Abiding said:

in the name of reconciliation here is my bumpsworth.

Skinski7 · Dec 9, 2012

zone said:

You twisted my question and related it to Perseverance of the Saints (P in TULIP). I wasn't asking about "remaining" or "being in bondage."

That was not what I asked at all . I PLAINLY asked...

I know you don't want to answer the question because you will be lining up with "ye shall not surely die" and that is distasteful to you.

Can you commit a willful act of rebellion towards God and at the same moment remain reconciled and in a right relationship with God?

Skinski7 · Dec 9, 2012

Abiding said:

I did ask you in my last post to you.

Yet you don't want to answer it but rather just call me sleazy. I asked that question to see what you believe. If you are confident in what you believe then that question should not bother you.

If you do not wish to answer the question then it clearly demonstrates you are uncomfortable with the implications your answer will pose.

It is a very simple question yet it strikes right at the root of the lie preached in the church system.

Abiding · Dec 9, 2012

Skinski7 said:

You didnt ask me a thing...just said "why dont you.......
then proceded with your usual mo
if you want to ask me a question...ask it..dont tell me to search the thread
to find out what your talking about

But notice your sleezy accusations even more. All you do is wait like a theif
to hop on any opportunity to jump up and tell people they are whatever...your
really a tad twisted in your eccentric view of things

Skinski7 · Dec 9, 2012

Abiding said:

An appeal to semantics and another dodge of the question..

I'll ask you again.

Skinski7 · Dec 9, 2012

Those who believe that you can in fact commit an act of willful transgression and yet remain in a reconciled state, justified before God, are believing that grace is a license to sin. It's that simple.

They believe they CAN go out and commit an act of rebellion to God and remain COVERED by God's grace. Therefore this grace is obviously a license to sin. This is what Jude warned of when he wrote...

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Do all these people "deny God and Jesus." Yes they do because they deny the doctrine taught by Jesus. Satan is very slick because he has been able to formulate a false Gospel which sounds truthful because it uses Christian terminology and even present Jesus as dying and resurrecting. It is a very deceptive message which appeals to the flesh because it does not require the flesh be crucified with the passions and desires. The false grace message makes an allowance for the continuation of walking in the flesh. Thus the converts under this system remain double-minded serving two masters when Jesus taught that our eye must be single.

Abiding · Dec 9, 2012

Skinski7 said:

Skinski you altered that post and added "abiding" to it...naughty naughty
Please stop that kind of stuff. The Lord is not with you setting people up like u do.

Oh brother the porn thing again.....weird fascination you have with that.
My answer would be absolutely God would forgive him...if it was in the heart for the
man to be delivered...then the Holyspirit would intervene.

If the answer you were looking for is that a man has to stop sinning before he can be
forgiven and go to the throne of grace to receive grace and mercy and help then ill give a big
NO

If your teaching that a man has to stop all sin to be forgiven for his sins
then your a kook.

Grace Versus The Law

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