Grace vs works!

[MarcR]

Acts 2:38, Mk 16:16, the order of these verses put baptism BEFORE salvation.

You say baptism "is indeed an act of obedience". Then one is in and remains in disobedience/unrighteousness until he is baptized.

You would be correct if God intended baptism to precede salvation; but, in fact, God intends to have Baptism follow salvation.

In any case God does not expect us to remain perfectly sinless after Salvation:

1 Jn 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
KJV

In another sense baptism is necessary to salvation:

The baptism spoken of in 1Pet 3:19-21 is not water baptism.

The Greek text reads:

βάπτισμα..οὐ.....σαρκὸς..
baptism.....not..of the flesh.

This can only be the baptism of fire spoken of by John the Baptizer (Mt 3:11); the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit.

 

[MarcR]

The context shows the OT type is 8 souls saved by water. If you look at the account in Genesis 7, it is very evident that nothing and nobody was saved by water! The water destroyed everybody and everything that was not on the ark. Scripture does NOT contradict Scripture! When there seems to be a contradiction (as in this case), it is necessary to find a reading that reconciles both scriptures. In this case, διά, the word translated as 'by' can also mean from (though it usually means through). If we read διά as from, the contradiction is reconciled. I prefer the KJV; but sometimes the translators of the KJV, and most subsequent translations, let their doctrinal beliefs drive their translation instead of giving a straightforward rendering of the Greek text. In any case it is the ark, NOT THE WATER, which is the type. The ark is a figure of faith which leads to obedience. The NT antitype is faith which leads to salvation. Faith is not a work; it is the gift of God (Eph 2:9).
Since saving faith leads to habitual obedience; it is natural that salvation leads to obedience in identifying one's self with Christ through baptism. A person who accepts Jesus on their deathbed is just as saved as the person who is baptized.

If one were to translate ' the ark brought eight souls safe (ly) through water that would also work and would be less forced than translating διά as from. But 'from' is not without precedent.

 

[mailmandan]

Repentance is a work, I not just a mental assent of the mind.

The Greek word for "repent" is "metanoia" (noun) and "matanoeo" (verb) you see as defined in the Strongs #3340, 3341: to think differently or afterwards, reconsider. After thought, change of mind. Repentance basically means a "change of mind" and the context must determine what is involved in this change of mind.

Acts 26:20 one has not repented without works.

One shows they have repented by their works. Just like we show our faith by our works (James 2:18) but faith in essence is not these works. Acts 26:20 declares, "I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds." This is the fruit of repentance (Matthew 3:8), not the essence of repentance.

Mt 12:41 Nineveh repented at the preaching of Jonah.....Jonah 3:6 the king of Nineveh lead the city to repent in sackcloth and ashes...verse 10 "And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way..." Their repentance is a work, a work God saw.

So you simply define repentance as "works" and still claim we are saved by "works"? When God saw their works, that they turned from their wicked way, then God "relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them." They showed by their works that they have truly repented. In Jonah 3:4, we see that Jonah told the people of Ninevah that the city of Ninevah would be overthrown in 40 days if they do not repent of their wickedness (Jonah 1:2). The people of Nineveh repented "changed their minds" at the preaching of Jonah, believed God, and "turned from their evil ways" - "fruit of repentance" (Jonah 3:5,10; Matthew 3:8). The content of their faith was believing that God would overthrow Nineveh if they did not turn from their wicked ways, *not trusting in Christ's finished work of redemption for salvation. Unfortunately, the city of Nineveh reverted within one generation to its old pagan ways (Nahum 3:7,8). Turning from their evil ways was the fruit of their repentance. If we do our best to turn from our evil ways (self-reformation), yet fail to place our faith in Christ as the only means of our salvation, are we saved? No.

2 Cor 12:20,21 The Corinthians had been committing sins and Paul was afraid upon his return to Corinth they would not have repented of the sins they committed. What good would it have done those Corinthians if they had just mentally determined not to sin yet were still actively committing those sins? None.

2 Corinthians 12:21 lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and I shall mourn for many who have sinned before and have not repented of the uncleanness, fornication, and lewdness which they have practiced. Does practicing sin represent the fruit of repentance? No. Galatians 5:19 - Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. These are the unrighteous, not the righteous (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

No works = no repentance = no salvation.

No repentance = no salvation = no works/fruit of repentance/salvation. Repentance is not simply another work in a series of works in an effort to receive salvation by works, as you teach. When we repent in receiving salvation, we change our mind about our sinful position and need for Christ to save us and any form of self trust in works and the new direction of this change of mind is faith in Christ for salvation. No longer practicing sin (such were some of you - 1 Corinthians 6:11) and good works are the fruit of repentance/faith. 1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. So repentance/faith are not simply works that merit our salvation. Saved through faith is not saved by works (Ephesians 2:8,9) and through belief/faith, we are completely trusting in "Another's work," (Christ's finished work of redemption - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16). Jesus Christ is the all sufficient means of our salvation. No supplements needed. So good works do not help save us. We are saved FOR good works and not by good works (Ephesians 2:8-10).

 

[mailmandan]

Rom 6:16 Paul said you serve one of two masters, you serve either:

1) sin unto death

or

2) obedience unto righteousness

There is a contrast here between servants. There are only two kinds of servants in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants of sin unto death, or servants of obedience unto righteousness. Once again, when we place our faith exclusively in Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation (AND NOT TRUSTING IN OUR WORKS) we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness." Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

We must obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16; 1:16) to be accounted as righteous.

Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..

Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is accounted for righteousness.

I serve #2, which do you serve?

I'm sure that these many people in Matthew 7:22 who were obviously trusting in their works to save them would have given the same answer that you did. Did Jesus' answer to them in verse 23 imply that they served #2 or #1? Salvation by works is not obedience and is not serving #2. You continue to misinterpret Romans 6:16 by stressing "obedience unto righteousness" as if works of obedience that follow faith are unto righteousness, as if we are saved by works. We become "servants of obedience unto righteousness" (and are no longer servants of sin unto death) the very moment that we BELIEVE (Romans 4:5; 10:10).

James said 'by works a man is justified" Jmes 2:24

CONTEXT - James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. No! The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works, "shown to be righteous."

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In the Bible the word "justified" is often used in the "legal" (judicial) sense. Paul often uses the word "justified" in this "legal" sense (Romans 3:24,28; 5:1; 5:9; 8:30 etc..). The word justified is also used in a "declarative sense." James has this aspect of justification in mind. As we have seen, his concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. This is why James says I will show you my faith by my works.

In Matthew 12:37, "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words reveal the state of our hearts. Words will appear to be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of grace and righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "declared God just." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous."

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

and Paul says the same thing in Rom 6:17,18 > obeyed from the heart, then freed from sin/justified.

Before they obeyed that form of doctrine by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16), they had been slaves to sin. Those who refuse to believe the gospel have refused to obey the gospel (Romans 10:16). Choosing to believe the gospel is an act of obedience and we believe in our heart (and not just in our head) that God raised him from the dead (Romans 10:10). Notice in 1 Peter 1:22 notice - "Purified your souls in obeying the truth" and notice in Acts 15:9 - "Purified their hearts by FAITH." Acts 10:43 - ..whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. We are justified by faith (Romans 5:1). There is no room here for salvation by works.

Heb 5:9 Christ is the author of salvation unto all them that obey Him.

Who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? I've heard many people use this verse to support salvation by works. Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by keeping His commandments and practicing righteousness (1 John 2:3; 3:9,10). In either sense, believers obey Him. Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God, so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so-called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation based on their works (Matthew 7:22-23; Luke 18:9-14).

 

[BradC]

Rom 6:16 Paul says you serve either;

1) sin unto death

or

2) obedience unto righteousness

Can you answer with a simple "#1" or "#2" ?

You missed it so I have highlighted it for you in RED. Take a close look at it and read what comes before and after so that you can understand it. Here we go.

Originally Posted by BradC

Was there anything evasive or unclear as to what was said? You, like some others, are hung up on this faith without works is dead camouflage so that you don't have to trust God with all your heart in all things. You feel that total dependence on the work of Christ for righteousness and being lead of the Spirit in doing the will of God from the heart is weak and not enough and reveals instability and a lack of character on the believer's part (or that faith only crowd as you refer to it). You want to be able to do something on your own that signifies that you are cooperating with God through obedience to esteem yourself among the brethren. Sorry, but that is not how it works in the body of Christ. We humble ourselves before the cross and the mighty hand of God and he exalts us through grace.

The meek are those who God teaches and they are promoted and esteemed by grace because of an attitude of humility in the heart. They are the ones who take the lower seat and let God promote them and lift them up in due time. They are not looking to have an advantage over the brethren but rather they look to serve the brethren by laying their life down and washing their feet. They are not greater then their master and Christ learned obedience through the things he suffered in the plan of God. He learned it in the garden with the cup that he had to bare and through the slander and accusations that came at him through the Scribes and the Pharisees and through the works crowd of the Jews.

To walk uprightly is to walk by faith in God's promises trusting in the nature and character of the one who promised and those who do are given grace and glory and wisdom and honor. If we stumble yet trust in His promises, He will lift us up and give us grace. If the righteous fall they will not be utterly cast down because God is able to lift them up and set their feet on a rock and establish their goings. This is how the faith only crowd operates in the plan of God walking in faith obedience unto righteousness which keeps them from serving sin unto death. They actually have grown up and learned to trust God with all their heart and to lean not on their understanding. They have learned in the plan of God to acknowledge Him in all their ways and God directs their paths. Their testimony is that God is able to keep them and that they can do all things through Christ which strengthens them by grace and through faith in the promises of God. God is never slack concerning His promise as some would lead you to believe and has never forsaken those who have His imputed righteousness by faith.

 

[royalscot]

Yes I have seen a couple on here that tell people they don't have to repent, get baptized, and confess their sins.
This is a false gospel message !!!







Yes Jesus did die for all sins, but the thing some keep overlooking is that He also gave us in His teachings how we receive that remission of sins. Nowhere does He or the epistles say it was automatically given to us at His death.

For He says you have to repent;

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.



He says you have to be baptized;


Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.




He says you have to forgive others;


Matthew 6:14-15
For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Mark 11:26
But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.



The Apostles Peter and Paul confirm what the Lord said;


Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Colossians 2:12
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Romans 10:10
For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.


Colossians 3:13
bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive.

acts 10 proves your statement false. there is a difference to believing and repenting.
again your out of context. acts 2 yet time has to go forward, not back.
again you miss acts 10 and 15.
yet again you miss acts 2 all are jewish.
all had the law as there were all jewish.

act 15 again i reminds you, what law was given to a gentile. dose it read in act 15 we have anything to do with what they placed in scripture, when did they say we will give them the 10 commandments, even though we know we are now justified by believing in jesus. yet again you edit this out and return to christian jewish people believing in jesus christ. and teaching people to be jewish.

again religion blinds some to what the bible actually said.
yet they claim to see, as time proves you wrong, not me.

 

[BradC]

There is a contrast here between servants. There are only two kinds of servants in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants of sin unto death, or servants of obedience unto righteousness. Once again, when we place our faith exclusively in Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation (AND NOT TRUSTING IN OUR WORKS) we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness." Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

We must obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16; 1:16) to be accounted as righteous.

Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..

Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is accounted for righteousness.

I'm sure that these many people in Matthew 7:22 who were obviously trusting in their works to save them would have given the same answer that you did. Did Jesus' answer to them in verse 23 imply that they served #2 or #1? Salvation by works is not obedience and is not serving #2. You continue to misinterpret Romans 6:16 by stressing "obedience unto righteousness" as if works of obedience that follow faith are unto righteousness, as if we are saved by works. We become "servants of obedience unto righteousness" (and are no longer servants of sin unto death) the very moment that we BELIEVE (Romans 4:5; 10:10).

CONTEXT - James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. No! The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works, "shown to be righteous."

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In the Bible the word "justified" is often used in the "legal" (judicial) sense. Paul often uses the word "justified" in this "legal" sense (Romans 3:24,28; 5:1; 5:9; 8:30 etc..). The word justified is also used in a "declarative sense." James has this aspect of justification in mind. As we have seen, his concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. This is why James says I will show you my faith by my works.

In Matthew 12:37, "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words reveal the state of our hearts. Words will appear to be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of grace and righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "declared God just." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous."

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

Before they obeyed that form of doctrine by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16), they had been slaves to sin. Those who refuse to believe the gospel have refused to obey the gospel (Romans 10:16). Choosing to believe the gospel is an act of obedience and we believe in our heart (and not just in our head) that God raised him from the dead (Romans 10:10). Notice in 1 Peter 1:22 notice - "Purified your souls in obeying the truth" and notice in Acts 15:9 - "Purified their hearts by FAITH." Acts 10:43 - ..whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. We are justified by faith (Romans 5:1). There is no room here for salvation by works.

Who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? I've heard many people use this verse to support salvation by works. Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by keeping His commandments and practicing righteousness (1 John 2:3; 3:9,10). In either sense, believers obey Him. Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God, so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so-called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation based on their works (Matthew 7:22-23; Luke 18:9-14).

If I had a a Spirit-filled debate/discussion team, and I don't, I would want you on that team along with a few others on this site. Because of the understanding you have of the finished work and the way that you have laid it in this post is sound doctrine and any believer who is having trouble understanding the finished work needs to print out this post and read it over and meditate on it.

 

[BradC]

I am convinced beyond any doubt that our understanding of the 'finished work' of the cross and how that applies to the believer effects the way we live our life before God in every way.

 

[royalscot]

sound doctrine, must firstly correctly interpret, what scriptures meaning is. before you can get to spiritual understanding, to spiritual gifts. etc.

some are still arguing the written word out of context, so when will you get to spiritual context. on cc forums , and chat etc

 

[forsha]

Eph 2:8 shows it takes BOTH God's grace and man's faith to be saved. So salvation is not possible by 'grace alone' or "faith alone".

Eph 2:8------faith>>>>>>>>saves
1Pet3:21----baptism>>>>>>saves

Since there is just one way to be saved, no alternatives, then faith MUST include baptism.

1 Pet 3:21, Salvation is a deliverance. If you use all salvation scriptures as eternal deliverance they will not harmonize. The saving in 1 Pet 3:21 is a timely deliverance. Baptism is an answer of a good conscience. They were saved eternally before baptism for they could not have answered with a good conscience. We already are saved eternally by grace before we have access to faith because faith is a fruit of the Spirit. How can you have an apple unless you first have an apple tree?

 

[forsha]

1 Thess 1:3 speaks about their "work of faith"
Faith itself is a work, it's a work that is required to access God's grace, Rom 5:2.

Rom 5:2 does not have reference to eternal salvation. My bible has a reference to Rom 10:9, which is also not talking about eternal life, but an abundant life that we have access to here in this world, the church that Jesus set up being a part of this life. The "shall be saved" is not referring to eternal, but a deliverance here on this earth if we follow God's commandments and enjoy the abundant life. If you try to use all salvation scriptures as eternal you will have trouble getting them to harmonize.

 

[forsha]

So if a man does not believe then he is lost and it would the the fault, culpability of God for him being lost. Yet God has no culpability for those that are lost.

Jn 6:28,29 "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that wemight work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

Believing is the work Jesus gave these people to do, God does not believe for them. Jesus told them YOU do the work of believing. No sense in the jailer in Acts 16:31 and other to be commanded to believe (MK 1:15) if God does the work of believing.

Believing anything that is of a spiritual nature comes only after you are born of the Spirit, 1 Cor 2:14 and Eph 2:5. And man has nothing to do with being born of the Spirit, it is totally by the grace of God.

 

[forsha]

No I am not because confession, repentance, and baptism is not the works of the law.
The works of the law is trying to keep and following, and be justified by the 613 Mosaic laws in the OT. What the Lord taught in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John is not works of the law. They are standards of a true faith in a believer, for a true faith will lead you to obey all of His commands from love to baptism. The epistles all upheld all the Lord taught, they did not do away with any of it. Even Paul upheld baptism even though some will tell you he didn't because they misuse one scripture of his where he says he was not sent to baptize.

If a man has to act on something to have eternal salvation, then it is eternal salvation by works of man and not by grace. We, as born again people are instructed to do good works, not to earn our eternal salvation, but to stay in good fellowship with God. Most of God's children are using all salvation scriptures as referring to eternal, which in truth, most of the salvation scriptures are referring to deliverances (salvations) we receive here on this earth. Timely salvations require actions from man, and that's why you are reverting back to the letter of the law, because by not separating the salvation scriptures leads you to believe eternal salvation is by your good works.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Ac 2:38
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
KJV
In this verse, the word translated as 'for' is εἰς, which can mean many things including: in light of or in recognition of. if in order to receive were intended προς would have been used. NO LIE THERE!

1 Pe 3:19-21
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
KJV
In verse 20 the word translated as by is διά which also means 'from' . it was the ark wherein eight souls were saved from water. the ark was a figure of fath that leads to obedience.

the like figure in verse 21 is faith that leads to obedience
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us
Ηό καί ὐμᾶς ἀντίτυπον νῦν σῴζει βάπτισμα οὐ σαρκὸς

wich also us the like figure now doth save baptism not of the flesh but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

I prefer the KJV but sometimes the translators let their theology drive their translation instead of straightforwardly translating the text.

I understand the Greek usage and how some words have many meanings, but the reason for was used in Acts 2:38 is because the translators use scripture to interpret scripture. Yes they did get it wrong sometimes but in this case I do not believe they did. Because the Lord Jesus in Luke 13:3 made a clear statement that if repentance of sins is not made we will still perish. So repentance does have to be made in order to receive remission.
If you want to try and make it say in recognition of, or in light of, then you are initially saying that remission is received before repentance/confession is even made. Which the Lord Jesus and other scriptures make clear it does not. Repentance is done before remission is given, baptism (baptizo=immersion in water) was commanded by the Lord, and 1 John 1:9, 2:1-2 says confession has to be made on future sins to receive remission.

God bless

 

[forsha]

That is because we do not toss all of the Lords teachings out the window.

He is the one who said repent or perish.
He is the one who said be baptized to be saved.
He is the one who said you have to believe in Him to be saved.
He is the one who said you have to forgive others to be forgiven and be saved.
He is the one who said keep your confession in Him, and if not you will be denied and not saved.
He is the one who said if you deny others help, you have denied Him and will go to eternal punishment.

The list can go on, but the point is that our Lord Jesus said these things not us, and no bible scripture says remission was given immediately at the cross for all. Else wise all people would be saved and nobody would go to the lake of fire.


When He said it is finished He was speaking of the payment for our sins, and no more sacrifices is needed.
He still gave us conditions to receive that remission by His blood, and it is repentance and baptism (Acts 2:38) for present sins and then confession (1 John 1:9) for future sins. It amazes me that people still want to teach His word in the bible does not need to be followed and obeyed.

You are not separating the eternal salvation scriptures from the timely salvation scriptures. God did not have Jesus die for all mankind or all mankind would go to heaven. God had Jesus die for the sins of THOSE HE GAVE TO JESUS only and all of them will live with him in heaven, without the loss of even one. John 6:39. Christ's offering on the cross was not offered to man for man's acceptance, but to God for God's acceptance. You have nothing to do with your eternal salvation or it would become eternal salvation by works of man and not by the grace of God. The only way that the scriptures will uphold "eternal salvation by grace" is by separating the eternal deliverance from the many timely salvations (deliverances) we receive here on this earth.

 

[kennethcadwell]

If a man has to act on something to have eternal salvation, then it is eternal salvation by works of man and not by grace. We, as born again people are instructed to do good works, not to earn our eternal salvation, but to stay in good fellowship with God. Most of God's children are using all salvation scriptures as referring to eternal, which in truth, most of the salvation scriptures are referring to deliverances (salvations) we receive here on this earth. Timely salvations require actions from man, and that's why you are reverting back to the letter of the law, because by not separating the salvation scriptures leads you to believe eternal salvation is by your good works.

I am not reverting back to the law, as I do not teach the Mosaic law for salvation, but once again repentance, baptism, confession, and forgiveness is not works of the law. They are spiritual works of love done within faith of Christ unto salvation. Lord Jesus is the one who said repent of sins or perish, not me. Lord Jesus said confess Him before others, or He will deny you. Lord Jesus is the one who said forgive others or you will not be forgiven. And it is the Lord Jesus who commanded baptism to be done as part of the sanctification of a believer, not me.
So all in all to say these things are not needed is to me to say the Lord lied, and to say we can deny all that He taught and still have salvation. However there is more than one scripture that says if we are disobedient we will not get salvation, and Luke 12 is one of those chapters that says this.

 

[forsha]

I agree. Works do not save a person. I don't have to go out tomorrow and do something to be saved. I am saved by God's grace right here and right now. This is because I repented of my sins and accepted Jesus as my Savior. This is because I trust in Jesus as my Savior. I believe He died on the cross for my sins, was buried, and risen to life three days later. This is because when I do on occasion commiit a sin, I confess that sin, and then he is faithful and just to forgive me of that sin and to cleanse me of it's unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). For we are saved by God's grace (Which is a free gift) and not of works (Ephesians 2:8-9). We are saved by His mercy and by the washing of the regeneration of the Holy Ghost (Titus 3:5).

However, true repentance and an acceptance of Jesus Christ will lead a person to live righteously and fruitful for their God, though. If they are not living righteously and or doing no works for God, then they are proving God is not living within them. They are showing their faith is a dead faith (James 2:17-19). For those believers who live unrighteously and or do no works need to repent and get their heart right with the Lord. For the Lord is their salvation.

They get their heart right with God and not by doing a bunch of any works. Jesus saves. It's not us. Works are just the result of salvation.

HOW CONTRADICTING IS THAT! You say that works do not save you eternally, then you say you are saved because you repented and accepted Jesus. Repentance and accepting are WORKS.

 

[forsha]

Confessing and forsaking sin (or evil) is not a work. Forgiving others is not a work. Denying Christ before men is not a work.

As for baptism: It does not save the soul. While it is spiritual, it is only a symbolic act, though.

As for helping the poor, etc.: This happens as a result of having been saved (or born again).

In other words, works do not save you. Only Jesus saves.

Granted, this does not give the believer a license to sin, though.

If confessing and repenting requires an action, or voicing a choice, then it is works. God says that we love him because he first loved us. God says "you did not choose me but I choose you". I do agree with your statement that good works is a result of our being saved eternally.

 

[kennethcadwell]

You are not separating the eternal salvation scriptures from the timely salvation scriptures. God did not have Jesus die for all mankind or all mankind would go to heaven. God had Jesus die for the sins of THOSE HE GAVE TO JESUS only and all of them will live with him in heaven, without the loss of even one. John 6:39. Christ's offering on the cross was not offered to man for man's acceptance, but to God for God's acceptance. You have nothing to do with your eternal salvation or it would become eternal salvation by works of man and not by the grace of God. The only way that the scriptures will uphold "eternal salvation by grace" is by separating the eternal deliverance from the many timely salvations (deliverances) we receive here on this earth.

I have heard this debate many of times about eternal salvation and timely salvation scriptures.
But in my studies not one scripture separates as such, as each time salvation or saved is mentioned it is referring to eternal life salvation. Matthew 10:22 and Matthew 7:21 say we have to endure first and do the will of God in our life first before eternal life salvation is received. As the Lord clearly says in 7:21 we will not inherit the kingdom of heaven (eternal life) if they do not do the will of God in their life. This is a clear scripture that says doing comes first, then eternal life is given.
People want to then take and say God's will is just to believe in Him and love others, which is true but they are both continuation words. A continuation of belief and to continue to love others, and then the Lord even gives us what believe in Him means in Luke 6:46-49. In that scripture He says there are 3 parts to believe in Him; coming to Him, hearing what He says, and doing what He says. We can not separate any part of this from the others, as the Lord then tells us that those who do not do them do not have them as there Lord.

 

[forsha]

Repentance is not a work. Repentance is a foundational minor action on our part in coming to the faith and or in some cases in mainting or restoring our right standing with God. However, Scripture never even hints that Repentance is a work. It takes no real effort to Repent. You don't have to re-arrange your schedule. You don't have to physically exert yourself. You don't have to learn a skill. You don't have to mentally challenge yourself. You don't have to get hired by a person to do it. It can happen easily almost anywhere and anytime between you and God in an instant. People normally do not feel tired sometimes like when they put in a full days work if they repented. It is about throwing yourself down before God's mercy. That is not work. If that is work then I would like to see what kind of job they have.

If it takes an action on man's part, even a minor action, it is works. If you have to accept, repent, confess, or any other action to have eternal salvation it becomes eternal salvation by works and makes man his own savior.