Grace vs works!

[ChristInUs]

Oh my goodness now I know why the Lord sent me here. Y'all have no idea about salvation nor sanctification. How it works and what don't work. Really, how many have done the Daniel fast? did it change anything? How many have blown the shofar? did it change anything? how many have done the forty days of purpose? what changed? nothing.

 

[SeaBass]

Repentance is NOT a work! It is a gift of God by faith that enables us to turn from our wicked ways to follow Christ. I had no power within me to turn away from my life of sin, till God revealed himself to me. Then I knew the King of Kings, and the power of the Holy Spirit. I knew instantly I had to leave the evil I had been doing and follow God.

I could never have done it in my own strength. And I don't imagine anyone else here can. Repentance springs out of a love for the revealed and risen Saviour, Jesus Christ.

And every time I displease God, he shows me I need to repent. It's nothing I can continue to do in my own strength.

I can only praise God he set me free from sin and death. I am saved totally by grace, not by works! I repent because God tells me to and gives me the strength to do it.

Repentance is a work, I not just a mental assent of the mind.

Acts 26:20 one has not repented without works.

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Mt 12:41 Nineveh repented at the preaching of Jonah.....Jonah 3:6 the king of Nineveh lead the city to repent in sackcloth and ashes...verse 10 "And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way..." Their repentance is a work, a work God saw.

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2 Cor 12:20,21 The Corinthians had been committing sins and Paul was afraid upon his return to Corinth they would not have repented of the sins they committed. What good would it have done those Corinthians if they had just mentally determined not to sin yet were still actively committing those sins? None.

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No works = no repentance = no salvation.

 

[SeaBass]

Since faith is the gift of God (Ep 2:9) and conviction of sin is God's work Jn 16:7-11
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
KJV
Repentance, if a work, is not a saving work, because even recognizing that you have done wrong and resolving not to do it again in your own strength without faith accomplishes nothing with respect to salvation.

Repentance prompted by faith is a result of God's work

Belief and repentance are both works that have been given to men to do, Jn 6:27-29; Acts 26:20. They are not works God does for men.

 

[SeaBass]

Works contribute nothing to one's salvation; but true salvation will move you to do the work God has for you, as His servant. (Ep 2:10; Jas chapter 1)

Rom 6:16 Paul said you serve one of two masters, you serve either:

1) sin unto death

or

2) obedience unto righteousness

I serve #2, which do you serve?


James said 'by works a man is justified" Jmes 2:24 and Paul says the same thing in Rom 6:17,18 > obeyed from the heart, then freed from sin/justified.

Heb 5:9 Christ is the author of salvation unto all them that obey Him.

 

[SeaBass]

For sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace(through faith)

Rom 6:16 Paul says you serve either;

1) sin unto death

or

2) obedience unto righteousness

Can you answer with a simple "#1" or "#2" ?

 

[SeaBass]

That is not the case with God?

So is that why He sent His only Son to die for us ALL? Not some ....ALL.
Is that why He says love your neighbour.....and not only SOME?
Why is it that God specifically tells us to love our neighbour? He wants us to show the same love towards one another as He did for us.

How many times in the bible do we see, over and over again God forgiving.....and STILL loving His children, even blessing them after they have rebelled.

I don't know what your understanding of unconditional love is exactly, but from what I know is that God did not create us to MAKE us love him.

That would completely go against the big picture as to why He would give us the choice to decide between good and evil.
If He MADE us love Him, there would be no purpose for this fallen world and we would already be living in heaven with Him as His slaves.

God is love, not a monster.

God loves all men Jn 3:16 but that love does not save all men.

God has a general love for all mankind and a saving love for those that are His children/Christians. Jude warns Christians and commands Christians to keep themselves in the love of God. Christians can fall from that saving love but God will still have a general love for them.

Jn 14:15,21 shows for one to love Christ he must CONDITIONALLY keep Christ's commands. That is a CONDITIONAL love for Christ for one cannot love Christ Unconditionally apart from keeping Christ's commands. Those that have a conditional love for Christ by keeping His commands, God has a conditional saving love for them, verse 21. One quits keeping Christ's commands, he no longer loves Christ and can fall from that saving love of God, Jude 1:21.

 

[SeaBass]

Was there anything evasive or unclear as to what was said? You, like some others, are hung up on this faith without works is dead camouflage so that you don't have to trust God with all your heart in all things. You feel that total dependence on the work of Christ for righteousness and being lead of the Spirit in doing the will of God from the heart is weak and not enough and reveals instability and a lack of character on the believer's part (or that faith only crowd as you refer to it). You want to be able to do something on your own that signifies that you are cooperating with God through obedience to esteem yourself among the brethren. Sorry, but that is not how it works in the body of Christ. We humble ourselves before the cross and the mighty hand of God and he exalts us through grace.

The meek are those who God teaches and they are promoted and esteemed by grace because of an attitude of humility in the heart. They are the ones who take the lower seat and let God promote them and lift them up in due time. They are not looking to have an advantage over the brethren but rather they look to serve the brethren by laying their life down and washing their feet. They are not greater then their master and Christ learned obedience through the things he suffered in the plan of God. He learned it in the garden with the cup that he had to bare and through the slander and accusations that came at him through the Scribes and the Pharisees and through the works crowd of the Jews.

To walk uprightly is to walk by faith in God's promises trusting in the nature and character of the one who promised and those who do are given grace and glory and wisdom and honor. If we stumble yet trust in His promises, He will lift us up and give us grace. If the righteous fall they will not be utterly cast down because God is able to lift them up and set their feet on a rock and establish their goings. This is how the faith only crowd operates in the plan of God walking in faith obedience unto righteousness which keeps them from serving sin unto death. They actually have grown up and learned to trust God with all their heart and to lean not on their understanding. They have learned in the plan of God to acknowledge Him in all their ways and God directs their paths. Their testimony is that God is able to keep them and that they can do all things through Christ which strengthens them by grace and through faith in the promises of God. God is never slack concerning His promise as some would lead you to believe and has never forsaken those who have His imputed righteousness by faith.

Rom 6:16 Paul says you serve either;

1) sin unto death

or

2) obedience unto righteousness

Can you answer with a simple "#1" or "#2" ?

 

[SeaBass]

A person does not obey God until God puts his Spirit within him at his regeneration ,(born again). The carnal man will never obey God, and indeed he can not obey him (1 Cor 2:14). The only way that a carnal man can become spiritual is explained in Eph 2:5. The scriptures will never harmonize until you deny man's works and give God all of the credit for your eternal salvation. Heb 9:26 says nothing about the whole world. Jesus said he was sent to do his Father's will and explains what his Father's will was and that was to redeem all those that he gave him which Jesus accomplished his Father's will by going to the cross. Did he not finish his Father's will? I understand that you are still trying to help Jesus do his Father's will but I don't think Jesus needs any help.

Your Calvinism puts fault, blame, moral culpability upon God when God has none. If he only men can obey is if God FIRST "regenerates" them, then God has fault, blame, moral culpability for all the disobedient. You have God causing men to be disobedient then punishing men for the disobedience God caused them to do which is not in the just, loving nature of God.

 

[ChristInUs]

I'm gonna take a big guess and say you must be baptized first.

 

[SeaBass]

water baptism puts the flesh to death. Holy Spirit baptism brings the soul to life.

Neither are necessary for salvation, God saved us in Jesus Christ. Nothing we do can save us, it is by the grace of God that anyone is saved.

water and Spirit baptism is evidence of our salvation not necessities. God puts our flesh to death and brings life to our soul without our help. Jesus said: God could bring life to the rocks of the ground if he so desired.

Our faith and good works are evidence of our salvation, not necessary for our salvation.

It is by grace alone.

Christ be with you always.

Not a single verse says 'grace alone' saves, that is corruption that man tries to bring to the bible.

 

[SeaBass]

Baptism is indeed an act of obedience. It is an identification with Christ in his death, burial, and resurrection. It follows salvation and does not contribute to it.

Acts 2:38, Mk 16:16, the order of these verses put baptism BEFORE salvation.

You say baptism "is indeed an act of obedience". Then one is in and remains in disobedience/unrighteousness until he is baptized.

 

[ChristInUs]

Not a single verse says 'grace alone' saves, that is corruption that man tries to bring to the bible.

nope it say's by faith.

 

[SeaBass]

Salvation can not be lost!

Jn 5:24
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
KJV
.

What if one quits continuing to hear and believe, be saved anyway?

According to Eternal Security and Charles Stanley one can throw his faith away and still be saved....yet the bible does not teach one can be saved while faithless.

One CONDITIONALLY has everlasting life as long as he CONDITIONALLY continues to hear and believe.

 

[SeaBass]

If you rely on works your a pagan, because pagans rely on works...haha sorry couldn't keep a straight face!

1 Jn 3:10 "... whosoever continues to not do righteousness continues to be not of God.."

As long as one refuses to do righteousness, he will continue to remain not of God.

John's language here implies that the only way to be of God then is by doing righteousness as does Peter in Acts 10:35.

 

[SeaBass]

Ac 2:38
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
KJV
In this verse, the word translated as 'for' is εἰς, which can mean many things including: in light of or in recognition of. if in order to receive were intended προς would have been used. NO LIE THERE!

1 Pe 3:19-21
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
KJV
In verse 20 the word translated as by is διά which also means 'from' . it was the ark wherein eight souls were saved from water. the ark was a figure of fath that leads to obedience.

the like figure in verse 21 is faith that leads to obedience
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us
Ηό καί ὐμᾶς ἀντίτυπον νῦν σῴζει βάπτισμα οὐ σαρκὸς

wich also us the like figure now doth save baptism not of the flesh but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

I prefer the KJV but sometimes the translators let their theology drive their translation instead of straightforwardly translating the text.

The underlying Greek word for "like figure" (KJV) is antitypos....anti-type which means a thing resembling another, counterpart, a mirror reflection. You can take a hammer and die and make an imprint hammering the die into metal. The die would be the type, the imprint the die makes is the antitype, a mirror reflection of the die

The context shows the OT type is 8 souls saved by water. The NT antitype to that, the mirror reflection of that is we are saved by water"

1Pet 3:20--OT type>>>>saved by water
1Pet3:21--Nt antitype>>saved by water


Peter said 8 souls saved by WATER the mirror reflection is we are saved by WATER. Anything other than this is not the type to antitype Peter was making in 1 Pet 3;20.21.

 

[SeaBass]

nope it say's by faith.

The bible says salvation is by grace AND faith and not either one alone.

 

[breno785au]

Oh my goodness now I know why the Lord sent me here. Y'all have no idea about salvation nor sanctification. How it works and what don't work. Really, how many have done the Daniel fast? did it change anything? How many have blown the shofar? did it change anything? how many have done the forty days of purpose? what changed? nothing.

Not being rude but your not the first to come on this site thinking to show us all our error and save us.

 

[yogosans14]

Anyone who thinks works plays even 1% into our salvation have a serious distorted view of salvation and Jesus work at the cross.

 

[MarcR]

The underlying Greek word for "like figure" (KJV) is antitypos....anti-type which means a thing resembling another, counterpart, a mirror reflection. You can take a hammer and die and make an imprint hammering the die into metal. The die would be the type, the imprint the die makes is the antitype, a mirror reflection of the die

The context shows the OT type is 8 souls saved by water. The NT antitype to that, the mirror reflection of that is we are saved by water"

1Pet 3:20--OT type>>>>saved by water
1Pet3:21--Nt antitype>>saved by water


Peter said 8 souls saved by WATER the mirror reflection is we are saved by WATER. Anything other than this is not the type to antitype Peter was making in 1 Pet 3;20.21.

The context shows the OT type is 8 souls saved by water. If you look at the account in Genesis 7, it is very evident that nothing and nobody was saved by water! The water destroyed everybody and everything that was not on the ark. Scripture does NOT contradict Scripture! When there seems to be a contradiction (as in this case), it is necessary to find a reading that reconciles both scriptures. In this case, διά, the word translated as 'by' can also mean from (though it usually means through). If we read διά as from, the contradiction is reconciled. I prefer the KJV; but sometimes the translators of the KJV, and most subsequent translations, let their doctrinal beliefs drive their translation instead of giving a straightforward rendering of the Greek text. In any case it is the ark, NOT THE WATER, which is the type. The ark is a figure of faith which leads to obedience. The NT antitype is faith which leads to salvation. Faith is not a work; it is the gift of God (Eph 2:9).
Since saving faith leads to habitual obedience; it is natural that salvation leads to obedience in identifying one's self with Christ through baptism. A person who accepts Jesus on their deathbed is just as saved as the person who is baptized.

 

[MarcR]

Acts 2:38, Mk 16:16, the order of these verses put baptism BEFORE salvation.

You say baptism "is indeed an act of obedience". Then one is in and remains in disobedience/unrighteousness until he is baptized.

You would be correct if God intended baptism to precede salvation; but, in fact, God intends to have Baptism follow salvation.

In any case God does not expect us to remain perfectly sinless after Salvation:

1 Jn 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
KJV