Grace vs works!

[kennethcadwell]

are we serving "obedience unto righteousness" here or are we serving "contention unto condemnation and confusion" ?

i know a Judge, and an Advocate -- i long for His mercy, and love it

The scripture in Romans 6:16 that we are discussing here says serving sins leads to death, and serving obedience which leads to righteousness. All we have to do is go back to Romans 5 to see what this obedience to righteousness is referring to;

Romans 5:21
That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[SeaBass]

amen!!! even while the thief hung there condemned!
and then He died, taking on and paying the penalty for my sin and yours, while the thief watched.

who is great like our God!
what greater love?

Again, the thief died before Mk 16:16, Acts 2:38 came into effect so was not accountable to those verses as we are today that live AFTER those verses.

 

[forsha]

Here is a scripture from Hebrews, and biblical scholars differ on who they think wrote this epistle.
They believe either Paul or an understudy who learned under Paul wrote this epistle, and here is what they say;


Hebrews 6:4-6


For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.


These people once were given the gift as the rest but because they love the darkness (sins) more then they love the light they have fallen away from the Lord, and can not be restored by repentance because they will not give up their sinful ways doing themselves harm. Notice that it says do themselves harm, not that the Lord takes anything away, but they take themselves from the love of Him.

Many churches are teaching false doctrines and not Christ's doctrine, but if you have been a member of the church that Christ set up, and have heard the word and believed it, and then you fall away from that doctrine, there is no repentance to become a part of his church. This verse is not referring to their eternal life.

 

[posthuman]

Again, the thief died before Mk 16:16, Acts 2:38 came into effect so was not accountable to those verses as we are today that live AFTER those verses.

you're saying the thief didn't have to believe? it's the one who doesn't that is condemned.

what do you think is the better part:
to yell at your brother or to rejoice in the mercy your Father shows?
which should we do, you and i, together?

hint: Luke 15:25-32

 

[forsha]

No I am not contradicting scriptures because no scripture says what you make it say that remission was given immediately at the cross. It says His sacrifice once and for all give us a way to receive remission through Him, and Jesus says how that remission is received. And He clearly says through faith, repentance, baptism, and continuing in a confessing and forgiving way of life. Walking in love, light, obedience, and forgiveness is all signs of a true faith, as a true faith in and of Him is an active faith.

Can you say you believe and love Him, but deny His commands ? NO

Can you say you believe and love Him, and hate others ? NO

Can you say you believe and love Him, and serve sin also ? NO

You did not give me one scripture to work with, only your words and I don't think that they are inspired of God. If we are going to have a discussion, should we not do it with scripture reference?

 

[posthuman]

can someone tell me where joy is found in fearing you have not done enough?

let me tell you what makes my heart glad beyond measure:

Blessed is the one whose sin the LORD does not count against them
and in whose spirit is no deceit.
(Psalm 32:2)

i am singing it, to the noise of drums, with ​great joy!
join me in praise

 

[forsha]

...and this kills your man-made faith only doctrine.

Paul did not say "faith only unto righteousness" but "OBEDIENCE unto righteousness'

No one can be saved without being righteous and Paul clearly points out that obedience leads one to being a servant of righteousness. In the next two verses (Rom 6:17,18) Paul shows how those Romans had "obedience unto righteousness".

Paul said those Roman obeyed from the heart, then being justified, they then "became" servants of righteousness.

Verse 16---------obedience UNTO righteousness
Verse 17,18----obeyed from the heart UNTO justification/righteousness....

They did not "become" servants of righteousness until AFTER they obeyed from the heart.

If no one is saved without righteousness, then how do you explain Eph 2:5?

 

[notuptome]

PETER is teaching 8 souls were saved by water. When one's theology cannot accept "saved by water" then that should cause a red flag to go up.

Where did Peter say the ark had nothing to do with Noah's salvation? The ark and water both contributed to Noah's salvation and 1 Pet 3:20 Peter references the role water played in Noah's salvation and making it an OT type to us also being saved by water under the NT.

I know that is what you want Peters teaching to say but you are in error. The flood water did not save Noah and the water of baptism cannot save the sinner. The flood was the instrument of Gods judgment on sin. Noah was shielded from the water by the ark which is symbolic of Christ.

The flood water washed away the sinful people on the earth. It was a temporary cleansing because the world once again is sinful. Just as Peter says water washes away dirt.

The ark was sealed within and without by pitch which is symbolic of the blood of Christ. When Noah looked up toward heaven he saw the pitch and when God looked down from heaven He saw the pitch. Gods judgment on sin did not enter the ark because of the pitch.

The next time God judges the earth it will be by fire. The heavens and the earth will dissolve away in the fervent heat and be made new without sin. But any how your rendering of the passage in question is incorrect and completely unreasonable in the full view of scripture.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[posthuman]

If no one is saved without righteousness, then how do you explain Eph 2:5?

it wasn't my righteousness that redeemed me -- it is a righteousness that far exceeds that of the Pharisees, and it satisfies my soul forever!

 

[notuptome]

The 8 souls were preserved while the world was washed of sin, in like figure (the antitype, the same but opposite, like your face in a mirror) like the water then washed the sins of the world, the water now washes away our sins, but Peter clearly (and why you (not you personally but many others) cannot get this is beyond me, Peter clearly says this is not washing away filth of the flesh, it is a spiritual cleansing, a representation of the death burial and resurrection of our Christ, putting us "in Him" and putting us in contact with His spiritual cleansing blood.)

The bible clearly teaches that the flood was Gods judgment not Gods salvation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[kennethcadwell]

Brother Kenneth,
Because a man doesn't appear to have a active faith according to your criteria and based on your interpretation of the scriptures does not mean that God has not begun a work in that man (based on faith in Christ) that He will finish. God knows the heart and He knows all things,...... nothing is hidden from His sight. If a man uses religion as a cloak for doing evil will God not know it and let it be known? Does God have the same criteria as man when it comes to Him applying mercy towards sinners? God sent His only begotten Son Jesus Christ to save sinners who believe in Him to save those that were lost not to save those who say we know the ways of God and walk therein. You are labeling some of those who walk by faith and not by works as men of dead faith in error, who made you a judge Kenneth? Correction and instruction is commendable but do you equate God's unmerited favor, love and mercy into your instructions and corrections? As brother Paul stated in Romans 14:13 "Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way."


Now after all is said and done when we all will appear before God to give an account will you not be boasting of the works you did in following what was written? But we will have no works to boast about on our behalf because God did works through us. Who will be standing there bragging about works they did and who will not?

I am not judging anybody for I have never called out others directly and condemned them, as I would never do that. What I have been called to do is give the same warnings to believers just as Paul did. Paul did not water down, sugar coat, or make salvation an easy road. He was commissioned to give more meat of the word by the Holy Spirit, hince why he gave more than one time lists of what can and can not be part of a born again believers life. John in his first epistle does the same in chapters 2-4, showing many things that if you do not have them in your life you do not abide in Christ and He does not abide in you. Those standards you are speaking of are God's standards from His word, not mine or any other mans.


No I will not be boasting about my works, because they are not done by me to earn salvation. They are done by the Lord who works in me through the Holy Spirit in righteousness unto salvation....

 

[BradC]

...and this kills your man-made faith only doctrine.

Paul did not say "faith only unto righteousness" but "OBEDIENCE unto righteousness'

No one can be saved without being righteous and Paul clearly points out that obedience leads one to being a servant of righteousness. In the next two verses (Rom 6:17,18) Paul shows how those Romans had "obedience unto righteousness".

Paul said those Roman obeyed from the heart, then being justified, they then "became" servants of righteousness.

Verse 16---------obedience UNTO righteousness
Verse 17,18----obeyed from the heart UNTO justification/righteousness....

They did not "become" servants of righteousness until AFTER they obeyed from the heart.

Any time we exercise faith, by mixing faith with the word that we hear (Heb 4:2), that is an act of obedience. We believe unto righteousness (Rom 3:22) by exercising faith in the cross as an act of obedience. When we are obedient to the faith that is how we walk and conduct ourselves and it is our manner of living, for we walk by faith and not by sight (2 Cor 5:6,7). We are justified by faith (Rom 5:1). The righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith (Rom 1:17). We have access to grace wherein we stand by faith (Rom 5:2). When we sin we confess what the blood has done and we are cleansed by faith. God puts us in situations and circumstances that we find ourselves helpless to try our faith, which is more precious then refined gold (1 Peter 1:7). Will we confess what the situation is doing to us or will we confess who God is in that situation by faith?

When we edify one another with grace (Col 4:6, Eph 4:29) we do so by faith no matter what they are going through. We are to operate by faith that is energized by the love of God (Gal 5:6). We may never be able to see the end of our faith in this life but we have a promise from God that it will be the salvation of our souls (1 Peter 1:5,9). When we walk by faith we walk in those things we can not see for they are eternal, for the things that we do see are temporal (2 Cor 4:18). Faith is the substance of things hoped for which are given to us by promise and the evidence of things not yet seen but will be revealed to us when we see face to face the author and finisher of our faith (Heb 11:1, 12:2).

 

[kennethcadwell]

If no one is saved without righteousness, then how do you explain Eph 2:5?

Ephesians 2:5 does not say we are saved without righteousness.
Go back to the previous verses and it says these people once walked in disobedience by walking according to this world, and not according to His will. As it goes on that through His righteousness working in us will lead us to do good works, which are an outer showing to others that our faith is true. Because our actions guided by Him will be of righteous works of obedience. Once again Paul is making an example that our outer actions will be representative of a true faith.

 

[michael56]

A christian only has one righteusness before God the whole of their life, faith in Christ(Rom 1:17) You could be burned alive for preaching the Gospel, you could give all you have to the poor, but you would still only have one righteousness before God from first to last, faith in Christ. When the Christian knows in their heart they are forever secure with God because of what His son did for them. They then do works out of love and gratitude for a free salvation. And they are the only works God will accept. He will not accept works done with a view they will better enable anyone to attain Heaven, for that is ignoring what His son suffered to set them free

 

[forsha]

Not a single verse has one saved BEFORE being baptized. You are trying to rewrite, change the order of verses as Mk 16:16; ACts 2:38 that both put baptism BEFORE saved/remission of sins.

You are not separating the salvation scriptures, all salvation scriptures are not referring to eternal. There is a deliverance (salvation) in being baptized, but it is not eternal. It is an answer to a good conscience. The unsaved carnal man will not answer to a good conscience about spiritual things 1 Cor 2:14. Acts 2:38, These men that Peter was preaching to were "pricked" in their heart. In our rebirth God takes out the stony heart and replaces it with a (soft) fleshy heart. Ezk 11:19. The stony heart of a carnal man can not be pricked, 1 Cor 2:14. The men that were pricked in their hearts were already reborn of the Spirit. Unless you separate the salvation scriptures you will not get the scriptures to harmonize.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Many churches are teaching false doctrines and not Christ's doctrine, but if you have been a member of the church that Christ set up, and have heard the word and believed it, and then you fall away from that doctrine, there is no repentance to become a part of his church. This verse is not referring to their eternal life.

[h=2]Verses about Repentance and Prayer[/h]2 Chronicles 7:14 if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.Psalms 32:5 I acknowledged my sin to you, and I did not cover my iniquity; I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the LORD,” and you forgave the iniquity of my sin. SelahPsalms 41:4 As for me, I said, “O LORD, be gracious to me; heal me, for I have sinned against you!”Psalms 69:5 O God, you know my folly; the wrongs I have done are not hidden from you.Isaiah 55:5 Behold, you shall call a nation that you do not know, and a nation that did not know you shall run to you, because of the LORD your God, and of the Holy One of Israel, for he has glorified you.Isaiah 55:6-7 “Seek the LORD while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.Acts 8:22 Repent, therefore, of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you.[h=2]Passages about Repentance and Discipline[/h]Exodus 32:14 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people (KJV).Jeremiah 18:8If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them (KJV).

True repentance is an acknowledgement that we are lost and that Jesus has indeed provided a way to make us right before God.
​

Jeremiah 25:5 saying, ‘Turn now, every one of you, from his evil way and evil deeds, and dwell upon the land that the LORD has given to you and your fathers from of old and forever.Jeremiah 26:3If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings (KJV)
Jonah 3:10And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not (KJV)
Revelation 3:19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent.[h=2]Verses on Repentance (confession)[/h]Psalms 34:14 Turn away from evil and do good; seek peace and pursue it.Psalms 38:18 I confess my iniquity; I am sorry for my sin.Ezekiel 18:21-23 But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live. Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?Mark 1:15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”Luke 13:3 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.Luke 15:7 Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”Acts 3:19 Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted outActs 17:30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.Revelation 3:3 Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you.

 

[kennethcadwell]

You did not give me one scripture to work with, only your words and I don't think that they are inspired of God. If we are going to have a discussion, should we not do it with scripture reference?

Matthew 6:24
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

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1 John 4:20
If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.

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John 14:15
"If you love Me, you will keep My commands.

John 14:24
"He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me.



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[h=3]1 John 5:11-13 [/h]And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.




What did John write to assure us that we have eternal life?
In chapters 2-4 he broke it down, that I posted recently about love, obedience, forgiveness, and producing good fruit/works........

 

[forsha]

I know what you are trying to do, as some others have done in the past to prove their point, and that is you want those exact words to be in the scripture. However depending on who is speaking and the verbiage they use to explain something says the same as lose salvation but in different words.
Let me start with giving two questions, then follow it with Luke 12;

Where do unbelievers go at judgment ?

Does the bible only state not believing in Jesus is unbelief, or does it say disobedience is also unbelief ?



Luke 12:45-48

45 But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.


The context here is that the punishment a believer (servant) will face will be worse at judgment then the punishment that a unbeliever who never knew the Lord will face. Because they lived a life of disobedience even though he knew what the Lord requires of him to do (how to live), and did not do it.

Believing and obedience can separate you from your fellowship with God, but they have nothing to do with gaining your eternal salvation. The carnal man, before he has been born of the Spirit will not, and can not discern spiritual things such as believing and obeying 1 Cor 2:14. and Eph 2:5. All that Christ died for will live with him in heaven, without the loss of even one. John 6:39. There is no way with your belief of believing and obeying that you can harmonize with those scriptures. The parable in Luke 45-48 is talking about our walk here on this earth, but nothing to do with our eternal life.

 

[forsha]

The standards are the same for all Christians, it does not matter who is being talked to.
Rather it is Jewish Christians, Gentile Christians, Hebrew Christians, Roman Christians, or any other name you want to place before Christian. The standards for all Christians is the same.
Second Matthew 10:22 is not talking about enduring to be saved through physical life in the flesh, else all the Apostles were failed as they all were killed but one who was exiled;

Peter- crucified upside down


Paul- beheaded


Matthew- slain by a halberd


John- exiled on Patmos

James- put to deat by the sword by Herod Agrippa ( Acts 12:2 )


Andrew- crucified by Roman Governor, Aegeas( Aegeates )
{ bound not nailed to cross to prolong suffering }


Bartholomew- beaten with rods and then beheaded


James, son of Alpheus- beaten, stoned, then clubbed to death


Thomas- thrust through with spears, tortured with red hot plates, and then burned alive.


Philip- tortured, stoned, crucified upside down


Simon- crucified and/or sawed in half


Judas Thaddeus- beaten to death in Mesopotamia


Judas- committed suicide for betraying Jesus


Matthias- (replaced Judas) stoned to death

While a child of God lives here in this life he tries to follow the teachings of God, but only Christ could do that continually. When we are tempted by our flesh in which we all do at times, even you, we separate ourselves from God until we repent, When we are separated from God, not eternally, we are not enduring and when we repent and God forgives us of that particular sin we are saved (delivered) not eternally saved. Then we continue to try to endure. Does that make sense to you?

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Ephesians 2:5 does not say we are saved without righteousness.
Go back to the previous verses ...

How about we read the entire sentence and see just how bad at exegesis you really are?

Ephesians 2, NASB
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions [hint: that's "unrighteous"], made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. ​

You're so wrong here, your eyes are purple. Wow, that's really wrong! (Sorry. Family joke. You aren't expected to get it.)