Grace vs works!

[posthuman]

surely there is a way to uphold what the scriptures say about the imputation of Christ's righteousness to those that put their trust in Him, compelling us toward good deeds while giving all glory to our Lord alone, without boasting about our works or setting scripture against itself --

could it be thankfulness and the answer of a good conscience toward our Great Redeemer?

it doesn't seem necessary to me for us to rail at each other, but instead to praise and glorify our Father.

 

[SeaBass]

So you are teaching that the flood saved eight souls? The ark had nothing to do with their preservation?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

PETER is teaching 8 souls were saved by water. When one's theology cannot accept "saved by water" then that should cause a red flag to go up.

Where did Peter say the ark had nothing to do with Noah's salvation? The ark and water both contributed to Noah's salvation and 1 Pet 3:20 Peter references the role water played in Noah's salvation and making it an OT type to us also being saved by water under the NT.

 

[posthuman]

Not a single verse has one saved BEFORE being baptized. You are trying to rewrite, change the order of verses as Mk 16:16; ACts 2:38 that both put baptism BEFORE saved/remission of sins.

Acts 10-11, the thief on the cross, "already you are clean by the word which I have spoken to you" etc. -- these things are not in your Bible?

Christ redeemed me. my works didn't. why is that so hard??

 

[posthuman]

if your shoelaces are untied, you are in danger of stumbling - who can argue with that?

but i have seen marathons won by men who wore no shoes at all

 

[kennethcadwell]

Matt 10:22, When you are enduring, you are receiving a deliverance (salvation) by the act of enduring. You will not make all scriptures harmonize if you persist on using all salvation scriptures as eternal. Mat 7:21, Throughout the scriptures there are several names that are referring to the church that Jesus set up, the kingdom of heaven, the church of God, the church of Christ, the little flock, the remnant, the bride of Christ, the church of the first born, the church in the wilderness, the new Jerusalem, and more. The church is also referred to as, the few. In the same chapter in verse 13 and 14 The wide gate are all of God's children who are believing and teaching a false doctrine, and the strait gate are all of God's children are a part of the church that Jesus set up and are teaching his doctrine that leads to an abundant life that we can live here in this world. and few there be that find it. This "few" is not talking about the amount that will enter eternal life because they are numbered as the sand of the sea and the stars in heaven.

The standards are the same for all Christians, it does not matter who is being talked to.
Rather it is Jewish Christians, Gentile Christians, Hebrew Christians, Roman Christians, or any other name you want to place before Christian. The standards for all Christians is the same.
Second Matthew 10:22 is not talking about enduring to be saved through physical life in the flesh, else all the Apostles were failed as they all were killed but one who was exiled;

Peter- crucified upside down


Paul- beheaded


Matthew- slain by a halberd


John- exiled on Patmos

James- put to deat by the sword by Herod Agrippa ( Acts 12:2 )


Andrew- crucified by Roman Governor, Aegeas( Aegeates )
{ bound not nailed to cross to prolong suffering }


Bartholomew- beaten with rods and then beheaded


James, son of Alpheus- beaten, stoned, then clubbed to death


Thomas- thrust through with spears, tortured with red hot plates, and then burned alive.


Philip- tortured, stoned, crucified upside down


Simon- crucified and/or sawed in half


Judas Thaddeus- beaten to death in Mesopotamia


Judas- committed suicide for betraying Jesus


Matthias- (replaced Judas) stoned to death

 

[SeaBass]

curious if -- have you read,

What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ — the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.
(Philippians 3:8-9)

?

iirc Paul wrote that ↑

And Phil 3:8,9 does not contradict Rom 6:16-18.

Paul is saying his righteousness did not come by keeping the OT law, but came "through faith in Christ"

Therefore if obedience leads to righteousness and faith leads to righteousness then faith MUST be a form obeying, an obedient work. There is no 'faith only' in either of these contexts, no verse anywhere says righteousness comes by faith only.

 

[posthuman]

someone please PM me when the joy of our salvation is restored.

(give) thanks

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

I am not assuming anything as I have talked to many on here that deny they have to keep, follow, and obey all of the Lords teachings in debates on here. The problem with that is that the true active faith will continue in those things and defend those things He said, and a false or disobedient faith will not do or defend His teachings.
That is the place I am coming from to go against those who say we do not have to obey and follow what Jesus said in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. And try to say they have salvation even though they are disobedient, and by not defending and standing up for His words is clear of that. Remember the Lord Jesus Himself said not all that call on Him to be their Lord will inherit the kingdom of heaven (eternal life). He said there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth, because there will be many who believe they are saved and are not. This is because they still live in willful sins, iniquity, darkness, carnal minded, selfishness, unforgiving, and unloving ways. Therefore their faith is a dead faith that will lead to the second death. Matthew 25 gives us 3 parables that shows this example.

Brother Kenneth,
Because a man doesn't appear to have a active faith according to your criteria and based on your interpretation of the scriptures does not mean that God has not begun a work in that man (based on faith in Christ) that He will finish. God knows the heart and He knows all things,...... nothing is hidden from His sight. If a man uses religion as a cloak for doing evil will God not know it and let it be known? Does God have the same criteria as man when it comes to Him applying mercy towards sinners? God sent His only begotten Son Jesus Christ to save sinners who believe in Him to save those that were lost not to save those who say we know the ways of God and walk therein. You are labeling some of those who walk by faith and not by works as men of dead faith in error, who made you a judge Kenneth? Correction and instruction is commendable but do you equate God's unmerited favor, love and mercy into your instructions and corrections? As brother Paul stated in Romans 14:13 "Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way."


Now after all is said and done when we all will appear before God to give an account will you not be boasting of the works you did in following what was written? But we will have no works to boast about on our behalf because God did works through us. Who will be standing there bragging about works they did and who will not?

 

[SeaBass]

surely there is a way to uphold what the scriptures say about the imputation of Christ's righteousness to those that put their trust in Him, compelling us toward good deeds while giving all glory to our Lord alone, without boasting about our works or setting scripture against itself --

could it be thankfulness and the answer of a good conscience toward our Great Redeemer?

it doesn't seem necessary to me for us to rail at each other, but instead to praise and glorify our Father.

Ir you mean by "imputation" that Christ's righteousness is transferred to some random sinner while that sinner sits and does nothing, then the bible doe NOT teach this.

 

[posthuman]

Ir you mean by "imputation" that Christ's righteousness is transferred to some random sinner while that sinner sits and does nothing, then the bible doe NOT teach this.

what is counted to the one who does not work, but trusts in the One who justifies the ungodly?
did i find a typo?

 

[SeaBass]

Acts 10-11, the thief on the cross, "already you are clean by the word which I have spoken to you" etc. -- these things are not in your Bible?

Christ redeemed me. my works didn't. why is that so hard??

The thief lived and died under the OT law BEFORE Mk 16:16; Acts 2:38 ever came into effect sh he was not accountable to being baptized was we are who live AFTER Mk 16:16; Acts 2:38 are accountable to these verses. So the thief is NOT an example of NT salvation.

Does Christ just randomly save people for no particular reason? No, He saves ANYONE who will obey Him.

 

[forsha]

I have heard this debate many of times about eternal salvation and timely salvation scriptures.
But in my studies not one scripture separates as such, as each time salvation or saved is mentioned it is referring to eternal life salvation. Matthew 10:22 and Matthew 7:21 say we have to endure first and do the will of God in our life first before eternal life salvation is received. As the Lord clearly says in 7:21 we will not inherit the kingdom of heaven (eternal life) if they do not do the will of God in their life. This is a clear scripture that says doing comes first, then eternal life is given.
People want to then take and say God's will is just to believe in Him and love others, which is true but they are both continuation words. A continuation of belief and to continue to love others, and then the Lord even gives us what believe in Him means in Luke 6:46-49. In that scripture He says there are 3 parts to believe in Him; coming to Him, hearing what He says, and doing what He says. We can not separate any part of this from the others, as the Lord then tells us that those who do not do them do not have them as there Lord.

Luke 6:46-49, These verses has nothing to do with eternal salvation, but every thing to do with your fellowship with God. If you come to him, hear his instructions, do his instructions and teach his instructions then you are the ones that enter into the strait gate in Matthew 7 which is his church and those that do not understand his instructions and teach false doctrines has their house built upon the earth, and enter the wide gate.

 

[Jabberjaw]

So you are teaching that the flood saved eight souls? The ark had nothing to do with their preservation?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The 8 souls were preserved while the world was washed of sin, in like figure (the antitype, the same but opposite, like your face in a mirror) like the water then washed the sins of the world, the water now washes away our sins, but Peter clearly (and why you (not you personally but many others) cannot get this is beyond me, Peter clearly says this is not washing away filth of the flesh, it is a spiritual cleansing, a representation of the death burial and resurrection of our Christ, putting us "in Him" and putting us in contact with His spiritual cleansing blood.)

 

[posthuman]

The thief lived and died under the OT law BEFORE Mk 16:16; Acts 2:38 ever came into effect sh he was not accountable to being baptized was we are who live AFTER Mk 16:16; Acts 2:38 are accountable to these verses. So the thief is NOT an example of NT salvation.

Does Christ just randomly save people for no particular reason? No, He saves ANYONE who will obey Him.

Christ died before the thief did.
the law condemned and executed the thief.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Acts 10-11, the thief on the cross, "already you are clean by the word which I have spoken to you" etc. -- these things are not in your Bible?

Christ redeemed me. my works didn't. why is that so hard??

Those words you gave are in John 15:3, and not Acts 10-11.
And the speaking of John 15 is that those who abide in Him will produce much fruit, righteous works. Those who do not abide in Him will not produce fruit, righteous works because He who does the works does not abide in them. This is speaking of abiding (being obedient) in Him.

Acts 10:47 Peter keeps the commandment of the Lord to be baptized, and makes a very important statement that no man can forbid water because this command came from God through the Lord Jesus.
Then in Acts 11:18 Peter makes the statement that the gentiles have been granted repentance of sin unto eternal life.

 

[SeaBass]

what is counted to the one who does not work, but trusts in the One who justifies the ungodly?
did i find a typo?

No verse say Christ just randomly picks out ungodly people and justifies them UNconditionally for no reason at all while they remain ungodly/disobedient.

David and Abraham both sinned thereby making them ungodly men. But even though they were not perfectly sinless God justified them due to their obedient faith. They were not just randomly chosen to be justified UNconditionally for no reason at all.

James 2:25 Rahab was a harlot, an ungodly person. Was she justified at random, UNconditionally while remaining disobedient/ungodly? No, she did obedient works and was justified by those works.

 

[forsha]

I am not assuming anything as I have talked to many on here that deny they have to keep, follow, and obey all of the Lords teachings in debates on here. The problem with that is that the true active faith will continue in those things and defend those things He said, and a false or disobedient faith will not do or defend His teachings.
That is the place I am coming from to go against those who say we do not have to obey and follow what Jesus said in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. And try to say they have salvation even though they are disobedient, and by not defending and standing up for His words is clear of that. Remember the Lord Jesus Himself said not all that call on Him to be their Lord will inherit the kingdom of heaven (eternal life). He said there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth, because there will be many who believe they are saved and are not. This is because they still live in willful sins, iniquity, darkness, carnal minded, selfishness, unforgiving, and unloving ways. Therefore their faith is a dead faith that will lead to the second death. Matthew 25 gives us 3 parables that shows this example.

Just wondering Kenneth, If after you have just commit a sin, and before you had time to repent of it, would you go to heaven or to hell? Just curious.

 

[SeaBass]

Christ died before the thief did.
the law condemned and executed the thief.

Christ promised the thief paradise while both were STILL alive and UNDER the OT law.

 

[posthuman]

Those words you gave are in John 15:3, and not Acts 10-11.

did you see my commas? they look like this: ","
i use them to delineate items in a list.

how do we come to abide in Christ? by earning a place in Him, or the inheritance of a birthright?
i thought it was through faith, an undeserved favor, an adoption .. ?

as far as i know, yes, adopted children do not live any longer in the halfway house.
let's move out!

 

[posthuman]

Christ promised the thief paradise while both were STILL alive and UNDER the OT law.

amen!!! even while the thief hung there condemned!
and then He died, taking on and paying the penalty for my sin and yours, while the thief watched.

who is great like our God!
what greater love?