Grace vs works!

[kennethcadwell]

No truly born again Christian can view it that they can live however they want. They have been changed, born again by the Holy Spirit who has entered their life at the point of conversion. If this did not happen such beliefs could exist, but they cannot for a person born again:

I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.[SUP]27 [/SUP]And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws
Ezekiel 36:26&27

A mirror of the following:

This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[SUP][b][/SUP]

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”[SUP][c][/SUP]

Heb 10:16&17

You only get the grace because you have been changed by the spirit who enters your life when you accept Christ as your Saviour.

That is not biblical as the bible clearly states that if you continue in willful sins then you are not a true born again believer, and a son of God. And then Paul gives an example of the Galatians who turned from God to going back to a life of sin, which in their case was to be justified by the law. Paul clearly tells them Christ has become of no effect (no remission of sins) to them, and they have fallen from grace. No remission=no salvation, no grace=no salvation !!!

It is that simple, and the scripture you give from Hebrews is after repentance and confession is made for your sins to receive remission of them. You do not get remission automatically before repentance, baptism, or confession is made for them. And the laws there that he is talking about is God's moral laws, not the 613 Mosaic laws....
Lets use the whole chapter in Hebrews 10 to get the full context, as you can not go with the part you gave with out also paying attention to this that follows;

[h=1][/h][h=1]Hebrews 10:19
Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus,[/h][h=1]

Hebrews 10:22-25
let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

(^....Repentance and baptism.....^)

23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promisedis faithful.

(^....Staying firm in the faith and not falling away......^)24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.[/h]
^^^We are to stir up good works to be done, not tell others not needed and don't worry you can do whatever you want.

 

[Richie_2uk]

hey Richie, I normally agree with you, I always respect you, but did we really need yet another grace-works thread?? I do not know how often you look at the site, but it has been weeks of this same topic.

I understand you, But this topic really needs a good understanding. and because there are so many different beliefs and translations, we really need to get this right. I'm sorry it is a repeat, however. there is a lack of true understanding of it. So I thought to post about it, so we can all try understand it all. Again I apologise for the repeat. but I thought it was nescessory to post it. God bless. Knowledge is good, discussing knowledge is even better. even if it is a repeat.

 

[kennethcadwell]

That's just it. You CAN, and will live as you want, if you are changed with a new heart and desires, and understand "Your will be done, on Earth, as in Heaven" means that your desires will be to do God's will.

Then you are doing God's will, not your own will of whatever you want.
If God tells you through the Lord to get baptized (Matthew 28:19, Mark 16:16), and you tell others you don't have to and they don't either. Are you doing His will or your own ?

You would be doing your own will, and trampling His commands/teachings underfoot and telling your Lord you don't have to obey what He said. I have seen a couple people on here debate, argue, and get heated at others by stating just what I said. That you don't have to get baptized, and that would be a direct disobedience to Him.

 

[Richie_2uk]

if people could learn how to use the search function to check for threads of whatever subject BEFORE they create another one, there wouldn't be so many threads on the same topics clogging up the forums.. *sigh*.. hint, hint, richie..

Hehe you people are right winge bags hehe, I know how to do a search, and I shouldnt have to explain myself. I thought discussing about our God, would be something we Christians would like to do. Yes granted I have posted something that has been covered millions of times. But how many of them do we fully understand it all. It seems that when something is posted, it gets pushed aside, or derailed, or moaned about because its a repeat of a repeat. How many of them do we all getteh answers from fully?

 

[Willie-T]

Then you are doing God's will, not your own will of whatever you want.
If God tells you through the Lord to get baptized (Matthew 28:19, Mark 16:16), and you tell others you don't have to and they don't either. Are you doing His will or your own ?

You would be doing your own will, and trampling His commands/teachings underfoot and telling your Lord you don't have to obey what He said. I have seen a couple people on here debate, argue, and get heated at others by stating just what I said. That you don't have to get baptized, and that would be a direct disobedience to Him.

You know people like this?

 

[Richie_2uk]

Here is the issue that people do not understand about that scripture and when it comes to God's grace.
We all did absolutely nothing to deserve God's grace of Him sending His Son to die on the cross to receive remission for our sins and be reconciled to Him. That is the undeserving grace that God did for us.
We though on our half need to have a working faith to receive that remission. Starting with faith in Him, repentance, baptism, confession, and forgiveness. Then walking in love while walking in His will for our life, and not our own will.
To say works are not a requirement leads to false doctrines of we can live however we want, which is completely not biblical.


Luke 6:47
Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them....

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

2 Peter 1:10-11
Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

you try tell that to the winge bags who moans and groans for reposting or repeating a thread. hehe. it topic like this we really need to have a full understanding about. It's like this, You really want to know the Lord or you don't. Not saying that direct to you, but as in general. I know it can be a pain seeing a repost of a repeated thread. If they dont like it, then why reply to a thread and moan and complain about it? Why not just pass it by, and go on another thread to reply or comment on. Anyways. Understanding the scriptures should be part of your wanting to know the lord. The more you want to know? the more we should want to learn to understand.

But I understand that people has different points of veiws and beliefs, but how many of us do we really understand topics like this? So its good to discuss, even if it is a repeated thread.

 

[Willie-T]

Hehe you people are right winge bags hehe, I know how to do a search, and I shouldnt have to explain myself. I thought discussing about our God, would be something we Christians would like to do. Yes granted I have posted something that has been covered millions of times. But how many of them do we fully understand it all. It seems that when something is posted, it gets pushed aside, or derailed, or moaned about because its a repeat of a repeat. How many of them do we all getteh answers from fully?

Don't sweat it, Richie. I do believe the Bible tells us that there is nothing new under the sun, anyway.

 

[Richie_2uk]

Don't sweat it, Richie. I do believe the Bible tells us that there is nothing new under the sun, anyway.

I understand, and I aint sweating it, just a little stepped back in shock, of some people's lack of wanting to understand God. Are we Christians really wanting to know God's truth and try understand our walks with God?. Anyways we are all on different paths leading to God, I just feel sad that there is no passion to know the person who is going to save us and send us to hell.

 

[michael56]

That is not biblical as the bible clearly states that if you continue in willful sins then you are not a true born again believer, and a son of God. And then Paul gives an example of the Galatians who turned from God to going back to a life of sin, which in their case was to be justified by the law. Paul clearly tells them Christ has become of no effect (no remission of sins) to them, and they have fallen from grace. No remission=no salvation, no grace=no salvation !!!

It is that simple, and the scripture you give from Hebrews is after repentance and confession is made for your sins to receive remission of them. You do not get remission automatically before repentance, baptism, or confession is made for them. And the laws there that he is talking about is God's moral laws, not the 613 Mosaic laws....
Lets use the whole chapter in Hebrews 10 to get the full context, as you can not go with the part you gave with out also paying attention to this that follows;

Hebrews 10:19
Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus,



Hebrews 10:22-25
let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

(^....Repentance and baptism.....^)

23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promisedis faithful.

(^....Staying firm in the faith and not falling away......^)24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.


^^^We are to stir up good works to be done, not tell others not needed and don't worry you can do whatever you want.

Christ died for all your sins, past, present and future. If he did not the Christian MUST live under a law of righteousness before God. If Jesus died for all your sin, if you are not under law but under grace(unto righteousness) this cannot stop if you commit a sin, for then you would have to be justified by obedience to the law. In order to have such grace you must be born again of the Holy Spirit. You have been changed into someone who in your mind instinctively knows how God wants you to live and in your heart you want to obey. Without that happening, you would have a licence to sin, it is the safety valve of grace.
The Galatians had become Christians by faith, but tried to be justified as Christians by works of the law. Sadly, so many do the same today

 

[michael56]

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator. [SUP]20 [/SUP]A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but God is one.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. [SUP]22 [/SUP]But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
[h=3]Children of God[/h][SUP]23 [/SUP]Before the coming of this faith,[SUP][j][/SUP] we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. [SUP]24 [/SUP]So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian. Gal3:19-25

 

[kennethcadwell]

you try tell that to the winge bags who moans and groans for reposting or repeating a thread. hehe. it topic like this we really need to have a full understanding about. It's like this, You really want to know the Lord or you don't. Not saying that direct to you, but as in general. I know it can be a pain seeing a repost of a repeated thread. If they dont like it, then why reply to a thread and moan and complain about it? Why not just pass it by, and go on another thread to reply or comment on. Anyways. Understanding the scriptures should be part of your wanting to know the lord. The more you want to know? the more we should want to learn to understand.

But I understand that people has different points of veiws and beliefs, but how many of us do we really understand topics like this? So its good to discuss, even if it is a repeated thread.

This unfortunately has to be repeated constantly as we are in the age that the great falling away of the church is happening, as we can see with all the wide varying doctrines of men that is tainting the true word of God.
Some do not like to be told that what they have been taught might be false, so they take offense and defend it with hatred, name calling, and being disrespectful to others. Instead as a child of God we need to pray, have an open mind, and search the word for the truth. I had been in a baptist, and a catholic church both, and until I was drawn by Him to study for myself I did not realize some of the false unbiblical things they were teaching. Some were subtle but others were very dangerous. Just like the watered down version that I see still to this day, of mere easy believism gospel that does not save, and a salvation first gospel then the rest follows which also is not biblical.

 

[Willie-T]

This unfortunately has to be repeated constantly as we are in the age that the great falling away of the church is happening, as we can see with all the wide varying doctrines of men that is tainting the true word of God.
Some do not like to be told that what they have been taught might be false, so they take offense and defend it with hatred, name calling, and being disrespectful to others. Instead as a child of God we need to pray, have an open mind, and search the word for the truth. I had been in a baptist, and a catholic church both, and until I was drawn by Him to study for myself I did not realize some of the false unbiblical things they were teaching. Some were subtle but others were very dangerous. Just like the watered down version that I see still to this day, of mere easy believism gospel that does not save, and a salvation first gospel then the rest follows which also is not biblical.

So, if someone believes, they are not saved?

 

[SeaBass]

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: Eph 1:11

"In Whom" refers to being in Christ"

"we" refers to the group Christian

Those that conditionally become a Christian (receive grace) are in Christ but it takes obedience to be in Christ.

 

[SeaBass]

Ok, as long as that makes you happy.

It's in the bible whether I or anyone else likes it or not.

 

[michael56]

"In Whom" refers to being in Christ"

"we" refers to the group Christian

Those that conditionally become a Christian (receive grace) are in Christ but it takes obedience to be in Christ.

sO SAVED BY GRACE KEPT BY WORKS (OBEDIENCE TO THE LAW?)

 

[SeaBass]

No truly born again Christian can view it that they can live however they want. They have been changed, born again by the Holy Spirit who has entered their life at the point of conversion. If this did not happen such beliefs could exist, but they cannot for a person born again:

I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.[SUP]27 [/SUP]And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws
Ezekiel 36:26&27

A mirror of the following:

This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[SUP][b][/SUP]

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”[SUP][c][/SUP]

Heb 10:16&17

You only get the grace because you have been changed by the spirit who enters your life when you accept Christ as your Saviour.

The Hebrew idiom in Eze 36:26,27 is God would allow or permit them to repent and have a new heart and spirit. Compare to Eze 18:31 "Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" They were to repent thereby making themselves a new heart and spirit and God would allow them to repent.

So one must obediently repent to receive grace.

 

[michael56]

The Hebrew idiom in Eze 36:26,27 is God would allow or permit them to repent and have a new heart and spirit. Compare to Eze 18:31 "Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" They were to repent thereby making themselves a new heart and spirit and God would allow them to repent.

So one must obediently repent to receive grace.

Ezekiel 18 IS SPEAKING OF THE OLD COVENANT, Ezekiel 36, THE NEW.
A mirror image of the law being placed on someones mind under the new covenant, and placed on their heart so they would want to obey

 

[SeaBass]

sO SAVED BY GRACE KEPT BY WORKS (OBEDIENCE TO THE LAW?)

Saved by grace AND obedient works.....no obedience = no grace. Grace alone will not save.

Rom 5:2 one has access by faith to God's grace. So the work of faith (1 Thess 1:3) is necessary to even have access to grace.

 

[kennethcadwell]

You know people like this?

Yes I have seen a couple on here that tell people they don't have to repent, get baptized, and confess their sins.
This is a false gospel message !!!

Christ died for all your sins, past, present and future. If he did not the Christian MUST live under a law of righteousness before God. If Jesus died for all your sin, if you are not under law but under grace(unto righteousness) this cannot stop if you commit a sin, for then you would have to be justified by obedience to the law. In order to have such grace you must be born again of the Holy Spirit. You have been changed into someone who in your mind instinctively knows how God wants you to live and in your heart you want to obey. Without that happening, you would have a licence to sin, it is the safety valve of grace.
The Galatians had become Christians by faith, but tried to be justified as Christians by works of the law. Sadly, so many do the same today

Yes Jesus did die for all sins, but the thing some keep overlooking is that He also gave us in His teachings how we receive that remission of sins. Nowhere does He or the epistles say it was automatically given to us at His death.

For He says you have to repent;

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.



He says you have to be baptized;


Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.




He says you have to forgive others;


[h=1]Matthew 6:14-15
For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.[/h]Mark 11:26
But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.



The Apostles Peter and Paul confirm what the Lord said;


Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Colossians 2:12
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Romans 10:10
For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.


Colossians 3:13
bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive.

 

[michael56]

Saved by grace AND obedient works.....no obedience = no grace. Grace alone will not save.

Rom 5:2 one has access by faith to God's grace. So the work of faith (1 Thess 1:3) is necessary to even have access to grace.

or it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—[SUP]9 [/SUP]not by works, so that no one can boast Eph 2:8

How many obedient works must you do to be assured you are saved? What is the figure? If you do not know the answer you can have no assurance before God on this earth can you. You may not have done enough good works to be saved