Greek scholars, help

[Locutus]

Did we get to the bottom of this?

Reading all the posts has left me BAG'D right out....

 

[Johnny_B]

i know we're blessed to have several Koine Greek scholars here; may i ask for your assistance?

specifically concerning the 'hina' (ἵνα) clause as related to Jn 3:14-17.

all i've figured out is it's a purpose clause (i think! lol). but as i look it seems there's a parallel structure in those verses.
really, any ἵνα in the New Testament where it appears, can you try to explain it to me?


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^^^ the result of copying Greek from the 'net, apparently.

The Greek New Testament, dictionary 4th edition. ἵνα conj. in order that (of purpose); so that (of result); that (indirect statement); with subj. ἵνα | τίς conj. (ἵνα + τίς) why? for what reason?

New Testament Greek For Beginners by Machen.
in purpose clauses with ἵνα, ὅπωςor μὴconj. 286 f., 455, 476; in various uses with ἵνα, 477 in order that (with subj.). 286.

The Subjective in Purpose Clauses

Purpose is expressed by ἵνα with the subjective.
Examples: (1) έρχμεθα ἵνα ἴδωμεν αὐτόν, we come in order that we may see him.

(2) ἥλομεν ἵνα ἴδωμεν αὐτόν, we come in order that we might see him.

455. μὴ, conj., lest, in order that not (the adverbial use of μὴ = not has already been given).
μὴποτε, lest perchance. ὅπως, in order that (takes the subjective. Used very much as ἵνα is used).

476. Negative clauses of purpose may also be introduced by the simple μὴ instead of by ἵνα μὴ.

477. ἵνα with the Subjunctive in Versus Uses

In addition to the use by which it expresses purpose, ἵνα with the subjective is very frequently used after words of exhorting, wishing, striving, and in various ways that are not easily classified.
Examples: (1) εἰπὲ τῷ λίθοι λίθῷ ἵνα γένηται ἄρτος, say to this stone that it become bread. (2) αὕτη ἐστὶν ἡ ἐντολὴ ἡ ἐμή, ἵνα ἀγαπᾶτε ἀλλήλους, this is my commandment, that you should love one another.

A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament by H. E, Dana and Julius R. Mantey

ἵνα

​

220. it's common occurrence is in purpose or final clauses, and it occurs regularly with the subjective mood, there being but few exceptions and those with the optative. It's full translation when final is in order that, but what we usually find is simply that. The negative μὴ may be used with ἵνα in stating a purpose negatively; as in Mt. 7:1, ἵνα μὴ κριθῆτεh, in order that you be not judged; or the simple μὴ without ἵνα may be used, as in Mk. 13:36 μὴ εὕρῃ ὑμᾶς καθεύδοντας, in order that he may notified you asleep. Then ἵνα is also used frequently in a non-fianal sense in object-clauses in the New Testament. It's in simply the equivalent of ὅτι scores of times. At such times the translation that suggests its force. It is found after verbs of caring, striving, wishing, saying, asking, eat. (cf. Mk. 7:6 καὶ ἠρώτα αὐτὸν ἵνα τὸ δαιμόνιον ἐκβάλῃ ἐκ τῆς θυγατρὸς αὐτῆς, and she asked him that he cast the demon out of her daughter). Or the ἵνα clause can be translated in many cases just as well by a infinitive clause; e.g. "to cast the demon out" (cf. Jn. 4:47). Occasionally ἵνα introduces clauses in apposition; as in 1 Jn. 5:3, αὕτη γάρ ἐστιν ἡ ἀγάπη τοῦ θεοῦ, ἵνα τὰς ἐντολὰς αὐτοῦ τηρῶμεν, for this is the love of God, (namely) that we continue keeping his commandments; Jn. 13:34 ἐντολὴν καινὴν δίδωμι ὑμῖν, ἵνα ἀγαπᾶτε ἀλλήλους, a new commandment I give to you (namely) that you love one another. Again we findἵνα used in result clauses, when it is translatable so that, but this usage is rare and it is a late Koiné development (cf. Jn. 9:2 "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, so that he was born blind?".........After special study of the idiom ἵνα τί in the LXX (cf. Ex. 2:20; 5:4, 15, 22; Ps 10:1; Isa. 55:2)we are convinced that it simply means why, and it should be so translated in Mt. 9:4; Lk 13:7; 1 Cor. 10:29, and wherever found (cf. Ps. 2:1, ἵνα τί ἐχρὑαξαν ἔθνη, why do the heathen rage?).

This is why I Have that might help you, I hope it does.

 

[Johnny_B]

Context is king LOL

Amen!!! my brother.

 

[notmyown]

Not a Greek scholar, but good at researching. Found this article by a Greek scholar, maybe it will help?

https://www.sermonwriter.com/biblical-commentary/john-314-21

Ariel that really shows the parallels i was wondering about.

many thanks!

 

[Grace777x70]

Greek scholars don't all agree with each other. There are Greek scholars that believe that speaking in tongues is not for today and there are Greek scholars that believe it is for today.

Here's the fun part : Each one uses "their knowledge" of Greek to prove their own beliefs and to show the "heresies" of the other ones that have a different view. Selah...

This can be true for many views on various subjects in scripture. Who Christ is and what He has done by His blood by grace through faith - will always be the cornerstone of truth.

Knowing the Greek after our human reasoning does not necessarily mean that we have the Holy Spirit revealing the truth of Christ behind it. Without Him - we are just giving our "opinions" and they could be or not be true - or most likely have an aspect of the truth. Christ Himself is always "the Truth".

In saying that - I personally love to investigate the Greek and have many sources I use but without the Holy Spirit - they are mans opinions too. I encourage all people to utilize what is available to them as there are many great resources the Lord has provided.

And if you see some so-called "Greek scholar" try to "lord it over your faith" and de-mean you and insult you - stay away from this type of behavior.

 

[John146]

i know we're blessed to have several Koine Greek scholars here; may i ask for your assistance?

specifically concerning the 'hina' (ἵνα) clause as related to Jn 3:14-17.

all i've figured out is it's a purpose clause (i think! lol). but as i look it seems there's a parallel structure in those verses.
really, any ἵνα in the New Testament where it appears, can you try to explain it to me?


thank you![TABLE="class: maintext"]
[TR]
[TD="class: greek2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: maintext"]
[TR]
[TD="class: greek2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

^^^ the result of copying Greek from the 'net, apparently.

What is a Greek scholar? Is there really any one on here that can speak and read Greek? If I were to say, "We went to the beach and had a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, played the guitar and then drove home," is there anyone that could translate that sentence right away into Greek?

 

[trofimus]

What is a Greek scholar? Is there really any one on here that can speak and read Greek? If I were to say, "We went to the beach and had a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, played the guitar and then drove home," is there anyone that could translate that sentence right away into Greek?

LoL.... I would also add something about internet and TV into the sentence.

 

[Grace777x70]

What is a Greek scholar? Is there really any one on here that can speak and read Greek? If I were to say, "We went to the beach and had a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, played the guitar and then drove home," is there anyone that could translate that sentence right away into Greek?

Anyone from Greece could do that. That would be modern Greek. I doubt there are any real Koine Greek scholars on here and real Greek scholars do not agree on everything themselves.

Any one of us could copy Greek text and post it - Exhibit "A" - ΒΙΒΛΟΣ γενέσεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ υἱοῦ Δαυεὶδ υἱοῦ Ἀβραάμ.


- then go read in Mounce's book ( or anyone else's book ) his explanation of it and then speak what he or they say on the text.

Again, this doesn't mean their way of interpreting it is necessarily how the Holy Spirit would view it. Without the Holy Spirit revealing the truths of the scriptures we are at the mercy of our own human reasoning - including the so-called Greek scholars viewpoint.

The truth is - all the Christians that could read and hear back in the NT - knew Greek. It's the Holy spirit that reveals the things of Christ to us.

In saying that - if we don't use the tools the Lord has given to us now with the resources of the Greek that is at our finger tips - IMO -we are not really being Bereans like we could be and there is much the Holy Spirit uses in looking at the Greek and Hebrew that will be missed by just relying on our human reasoning and one man-made translation of the scriptures.

I would encourage anyone that feels led of the Holy Spirit to study Greek - go for it! There are rich nuggets in the original language that do not get said in our modern languages.

 

[notmyown]

Greek scholars don't all agree with each other. There are Greek scholars that believe that speaking in tongues is not for today and there are Greek scholars that believe it is for today.

Here's the fun part : Each one uses "their knowledge" of Greek to prove their own beliefs and to show the "heresies" of the other ones that have a different view. Selah...

This can be true for many views on various subjects in scripture. Who Christ is and what He has done by His blood by grace through faith - will always be the cornerstone of truth.

Knowing the Greek after our human reasoning does not necessarily mean that we have the Holy Spirit revealing the truth of Christ behind it. Without Him - we are just giving our "opinions" and they could be or not be true - or most likely have an aspect of the truth. Christ Himself is always "the Truth".

In saying that - I personally love to investigate the Greek and have many sources I use but without the Holy Spirit - they are mans opinions too. I encourage all people to utilize what is available to them as there are many great resources the Lord has provided.

And if you see some so-called "Greek scholar" try to "lord it over your faith" and de-mean you and insult you - stay away from this type of behavior.

well, you're right in that mere head knowledge is useless. that's not what i'm after, i hope.

jussst tryna understand something to know God a little better, and to worship Him.
i think about Christ's command to love Him with all my mind. not that ive ever done such a thing, (i remember post telling us our minds are broken... lol, he's right!)

but it's a goal.

 

[notmyown]

What is a Greek scholar? Is there really any one on here that can speak and read Greek? If I were to say, "We went to the beach and had a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, played the guitar and then drove home," is there anyone that could translate that sentence right away into Greek?

did they have peanuts in ancient Greece??

 

[Johnny_B]

What is a Greek scholar? Is there really any one on here that can speak and read Greek? If I were to say, "We went to the beach and had a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, played the guitar and then drove home," is there anyone that could translate that sentence right away into Greek?

There are a few people that read both Greek and Hebrew, I'm not one of them, their Greek or Hebrew is the Biblical language that they know, the Koiné is different then the Greek of the day, just like if you've ever heard or seen old english, if sounds like a totally different language. The Hebrew of the Bible I'm not sure about, because they have kept as much of the original language true because of their cultural, religious and language are all around the Lord.

 

[Grace777x70]

well, you're right in that mere head knowledge is useless. that's not what i'm after, i hope.

jussst tryna understand something to know God a little better, and to worship Him.
i think about Christ's command to love Him with all my mind. not that ive ever done such a thing, (i remember post telling us our minds are broken... lol, he's right!)

but it's a goal.

I agree...personally I find many nuggets in looking at the Greek that the Holy Spirit illuminates to my spirit and mind about the goodness and grace of our loving Father and Lord to us.

 

[trofimus]

What is a Greek scholar? Is there really any one on here that can speak and read Greek? If I were to say, "We went to the beach and had a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, played the guitar and then drove home," is there anyone that could translate that sentence right away into Greek?

I can do this in English, does that mean I am an English scholar? I do not think so

Scholarship is about scientific approach to the linguistics which is not needed if we just want to understand the Greek New Testament, imho.

 

[notmyown]

I can do this in English, does that mean I am an English scholar? I do not think so

Scholarship is about scientific approach to the linguistics which is not needed if we just want to understand the Greek New Testament, imho.

well, that's encouraging, as i don't expect i'll ever be a Greek scholar.

 

[Depleted]

you're all really helping!

though i think many of us feel "God so loved the world" is the main part, is it actually God sending His Son that's the main clause? in Greek, i mean?

I can't do Greek either, but the main part/clause of John 3:14-17 is "[FONT=&quot]so must the Son of Man [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]be lifted up.[/FONT]"

That's my understanding from diagramming English sentences. (And I never noticed before that is one sentence, isn't it? It was just broken up so we English speakers could get it. )

And that's my understanding of the subject of the book. We tended to keep thinking the Bible is about us, but it's not. It's about God.

If the Bible was a term paper, the subject and the conclusion that goes with it is all about God. Man is merely one point, (and a good term paper usually has three or more points to prove the subject.)

(And I was going to keep my mouth shut, because I don't know Greek. I do know English and writing though.)

 

[Depleted]

I think the particular expression of Greek in this passage makes it extremely clear it is only referring to availability of salvation for Southern Baptists.


I can't imagine how it could be read any other way.

Damn the Yankee Baptist then?

 

[tourist]

Damn the Yankee Baptist then?

I agree. I'm a Tiger fan myself.

 

[Depleted]

Would this be something like this?

I went to the bank so that I might be able to give you the $1,000 bucks I owe you so that you can get that new gun for boar hunting.

Might you send me that $1000 instead?

 

[Depleted]

Greek scholars don't all agree with each other. There are Greek scholars that believe that speaking in tongues is not for today and there are Greek scholars that believe it is for today.

Here's the fun part : Each one uses "their knowledge" of Greek to prove their own beliefs and to show the "heresies" of the other ones that have a different view. Selah...

This can be true for many views on various subjects in scripture. Who Christ is and what He has done by His blood by grace through faith - will always be the cornerstone of truth.

Knowing the Greek after our human reasoning does not necessarily mean that we have the Holy Spirit revealing the truth of Christ behind it. Without Him - we are just giving our "opinions" and they could be or not be true - or most likely have an aspect of the truth. Christ Himself is always "the Truth".

In saying that - I personally love to investigate the Greek and have many sources I use but without the Holy Spirit - they are mans opinions too. I encourage all people to utilize what is available to them as there are many great resources the Lord has provided.

And if you see some so-called "Greek scholar" try to "lord it over your faith" and de-mean you and insult you - stay away from this type of behavior.

Ummm, "Greek scholars" means the person has studied Greek for a long time. It doesn't mean they have studied tongues or chocolate for a long time. I'd trust a Greek scholar if they are translating Greek for me. I wouldn't trust a Greek scholar with my chocolate though.

 

[Depleted]

I can do this in English, does that mean I am an English scholar? I do not think so

Scholarship is about scientific approach to the linguistics which is not needed if we just want to understand the Greek New Testament, imho.

Yeah. Honestly? You are an English scholar. You have studied it sufficiently to sound like an English speaker, so, yeah... you are!

(Sometimes you don't give yourself enough credit. You're a polyglot, for Pete's sake. THAT is scholarly levels. It's not like any ole fool can do it, and I say that as an ole fool who cannot do that.)