Guide for woman's (1 Tim 2:9-15)

[Willie-T]

I know you are right in respects to adverseness serving to grow us through grace. I can testify to the fact that this was true in my former experience as well.

I used to be better at it, but not so anymore.

I do have to return to that door matt position

Even a door mat can learn comfortably acceptable assertiveness.... "I may choose to let you use me to stand upon because my Savior did the same... BUT you may NOT wipe your feet on me without my prior permission... no matter how much you rant and rave."

I try not to get to the point that I think I am too good to let some insecure little pip squeak tell me I'm going to hell for my thoughts or actions. After all, he is the one standing in the middle of the dust cloud his tantrum kicks up, not me........... I'm probably thousands of miles away, sipping a lemonade, wondering what kind of a hell hole his life must be for him to feel the need to attack total strangers with his keyboard.

Life isn't what happens all around us. It's how we perceive those things.

 

[DesiredHaven]

Even a door mat can learn comfortably acceptable assertiveness.... "I may choose to let you use me to stand upon because my Savior did the same... BUT you may NOT wipe your feet on me without my prior permission... no matter how much you rant and rave."

I try not to get to the point that I think I am too good to let some insecure little pip squeak tell me I'm going to hell for my thoughts or actions. After all, he is the one standing in the middle of the dust cloud his tantrum kicks up, not me........... I'm probably thousands of miles away, sipping a lemonade, wondering what kind of a hell hole his life must be for him to feel the need to attack total strangers with his keyboard.

Life isn't what happens all around us. It's how we perceive those things.

Yeah, I'm not sure if I am rightly discerning the difference (for me) or not
I did face a situation not too long ago where chose to get up and fight back but I didnt return.
And Im not convinced whether I went about that correctly or not either.
I dont really get too upset about things, thats just not me.
I am typically pretty even keel. At least was up until that specific time.
But when I gotten angry my physical heart was actually affected during that time too.
And since then it has remained and continually remind me something is wrong with it,
particularly when I get upset.
That might be why I cannot take the various levels of aggrivation I feel on the forums so much maybe.
Before I used to blow everything off without fliching,
now I cant seem too as much for some reason.
And when I dont my phycial heart immediately reminds me of itself.
And man is that just a horrible feeling.
I was never aware of my physical heart before, I mean who is?
Thats just weird, Im telling ya.
But yeah, I need to return to caring less, or blowing things off like I used to or something

That would definately be a better place to be both spiritually so and physically so

 

[Willie-T]

DH,
This is an ancient fighting technique, but try it.

One hand on your chest, and the other on your lower diaphragm (stomach area). Which one is heaving the most?

When external circumstances are in control, it's your chest.
When you are in control, it's your stomach.

Start taking control back by taking three deep, slow breaths... each lasting about a half a minute, or even more.

After awhile you can learn to do this without putting your hands on your chest and stomach. It's a GOOD feeling to learn that you can be in control any time you choose.

 

[DesiredHaven]

DH,
This is an ancient fighting technique, but try it.

One hand on your chest, and the other on your lower diaphragm (stomach area). Which one is heaving the most?

When external circumstances are in control, it's your chest.
When you are in control, it's your stomach.

Start taking control back by taking three deep, slow breaths... each lasting about a half a minute, or even more.

After awhile you can learn to do this without putting your hands on your chest and stomach. It's a GOOD feeling to learn that you can be in control any time you choose.

I sure never heard of this, cant really say if its true or not.

Thanks though, sure, I'll take some breaths and see how my heart responds

 

[Angela53510]

Jesus offers us FREEDOM from sin (which is basically what His Name means) and PEACE with God via repentance and the JOY spoken of in scripture is very often related to the future as in Jesus' example of a woman in labor pains who AFTER THE CHILD IS BORN has such JOY that she forgets all of the pain which she experienced leading up to the birth. IOW, similar to a woman who is giving birth, we are called to SUFFER FOR CHRIST and when He returns we'll experience such JOY that all of the sufferings will greatly pale in comparison. Even Christ, FOR THE JOY THAT WAS SET BEFORE HIM, first endured the cross. If people don't want to come to such a Christ, then they're better off staying away than accepting some worldly substitute.

There is a huge difference between suffering for the cause of Christ (re: Christians in Syria and Egypt being beheaded for refusing to renounce their faith in Christ) and suffering because a husband is abusive.

Women should never have to endure violence at the hands of men. There is no Scripture which tells women to submit to abusive men, who are threatening their lives because the husband is an unbeliever, or an abuser who pretends to be a Christian. Boundaries for these actions include calling the police and moving out of the marital home to prevent further violence.

The fact is, most abusers will keep on abusing, it is called the Cycle of Abuse. They treat their wives nicely just long enough to reel them back in, then go back to abusing. It is terrible and demeaning for the wife, and Christ does not expect anyone to go through the physical and mental abuse handed out by a man who has abdicated his position as head of the house, by breaking both God's and human laws regarding how we are to treat and love others as ourselves.

Spousal abuse is very real, and I do not like the inference you keep making that women should suffer like Christ, whether from abuse, or childbirth. We cannot even begin to compare what Christ did for us and how he suffered! It is never wrong to report an abuser to the police and begin separation procedures if the offender is not willing to do anger management counseling and marriage counseling. And stick to a contract to not batter.

(And just to qualify, this can apply to women who abuse their husbands! It happens!)

 

[MarcR]

error----post not intended

 

[MarcR]

I keep trying to respond to a post and get redirected to respond to the thread

 

[DesiredHaven]

Thats weird never heard of something like that happening

 

[MarcR]

MarcR

Senior Member

Join DateFebruary 12th, 2015Age75Posts691 Rep Power
4
[h=2]

Re: Guide for woman's (1 Tim 2:9-15)[/h]

Originally Posted by SoulWeaver

So if your daughter was being battered by her husband, you would have advised her to stay with him, submit and keep quiet until she is killed, while her children also are getting abused?
Seriously Guys, do you really believe this is what the Word of God is saying? Just wondering is this what you really believe?
About smaller disagreements, I do believe the wife should pass over gracefully though and cause her husband to realize he is mistaken through longsuffering.



There is absolutely no reason either a woman or her children should have to submit to physical abuse.

Women are not push toys; and a man should have outgrown push toys before he marries in any case!

A man who physically abuses a woman should not only be left; he should be permanently incapacitated so he can't do it again.

To clarify: I am recommending incapacitation by legal action not by the abused woman.


​

 

[blue_ladybug]

Thats weird never heard of something like that happening

me neither...

 

[SoulWeaver]

To clarify: I am recommending incapacitation by legal action not by the abused woman.

No doubt, else that would be eye for an eye I see why you feel the need to clarify though, this forum sometimes gets crazy... lol
I'd never divorce legally, just move elsewhere in such a situation, but I have no authority to command others to do the same, I know just one man is for me so I'd just hang out with Jesus, but not everybody would be able to handle life alone in case they found themselves in such a situation. Everyone according to what they can receive.

 

[fredjames]

I really don't think that it is a guy's job to tell woman how to dress, what to do or what to say.

Put you carnal/flesh 'thinking' aside. Scripture are not given in 'reminder' and 'stir up of memory' based on one's 'thinking', bot therefore one's thinking be 'conformed' to all of them and in 'practices'. GOD will moreover use gifted man as their 'duty' is to do that for you also, in order for you and other women not to be 'beguiled' by 'satan', to 'compromise living away' from GOD's written Words which are for 'obedience' and 'submission', men and women who are 'called' according to.

The 'man of GOD' may seem 'helpless' testifying to fellow men and women about all that has been 'said' and 'written', in the words/teachings of our LORD JESUS CHRIST in the HOLY BIBLE. But those who will not listen, 'GOD said that HE will require of them' and this is according through Moses in 'reference' to us even today, from the 'Old', as 'a reminder' and 'a stir up of memory', for who are now under that 'promised' prophet 'JESUS of Nazareth', written in Deuteronomy 18;18,19.

As it is said and written;

"Do not tempt the LORD thy GOD."

 

[JesusistheChrist]

I did say that the wife should longsuffer, if it's something not deadly, so we agree. So I do not dismiss the Scripture, we're just talking sound application of it. All I was saying is that the scope of application of the Word should not contradict with the Word of God as a whole. He has given us His sound mind. In some cases even the Holy Spirit possibly might instruct the wife to longsuffer the abuse... but it should never be men prescribing this as a rule. Yes people do go to the worst case scenarios, because they have sadly heard too many stories where the abused wife would turn to the church for help and they scolded her and directed her to be more submissive and receive more abuse! Only God should counsel the believer on matters like this, whether something should be longsuffered or not. If so, the Holy Spirit will put this knowledge into her Himself.

I look at the example of Abigail and her example shows that in the case when the man is endangering his house, such as by abuse, drug abuse, excessive drinking or other reckless and foolish behavior, the wife must act to protect the whole family unit and the children from the husband and she has commendation from God for doing so. This does not mean that she is to leave him and forsake him (or badmouth him, argue with him, belittle him, spite him...), but to do whatever is necessary for protection of the household until he comes to his senses (moving out, involving authorities if needed, etc).

If a man, per example, uses meth or is an abusive alcoholic, and someone who should do everything to discourage him and uplift him back to Christ is tapping him on the shoulder and "submitting", that is called enabling and they are doing him evil, not good. This is not the definition of a righteous woman, but a lot of men (and women) imagine submission looks this way (clearly, not talking about you here, brother).

But when the household is not in danger, yes we are in agreement, God does call for lovingkindness and submission.

I have no problem with what you just stated, so, yes, we are in agreement. Thanks for elaborating.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Spousal abuse is very real, and I do not like the inference you keep making that women should suffer like Christ, whether from abuse, or childbirth. We cannot even begin to compare what Christ did for us and how he suffered! It is never wrong to report an abuser to the police and begin separation procedures if the offender is not willing to do anger management counseling and marriage counseling. And stick to a contract to not batter.

(And just to qualify, this can apply to women who abuse their husbands! It happens!)

"The inference I keep making"?

Here's what I plainly stated:

Where did I say that? Nowhere, of course. My daughters are 12 and 9 and neither are married nor do they have children. Anyhow, there are laws in this land and if a husband gets physically abusive, then I'd suggest legal action and protection. Must people always go to the worst case scenarios in order to somehow dismiss what the scriptures actually teach?

Care to try again?

 

[kaylagrl]

There is absolutely no reason either a woman or her children should have to submit to physical abuse.

Women are not push toys; and a man should have outgrown push toys before he marries in any case!

A man who physically abuses a woman should not only be left; he should be permanently incapacitated so he can't do it again.

Add to that mentally abuses a woman! One is as dangerous as the other. Most times they go hand in hand but mental abuse is gotten away with more often because the scars cannot be seen.

 

[PeterJens]

I ask a simple question, was Paul doctrinally wrong?
" But women[c] will be saved through childbearing"
If you take this at an extreme all women who are barren could not be saved, which is rediculous. The passage is full of "I" do not allow, not the Lord does not allow. He was speaking in a time in history where death through child-birth was common place, life was difficult and the chances of you surviving into you 40's was not very good. He did not want people with no understanding and an emphasis on beauty etc to distract the small churches he had planted.
Today these cultural aspects are not present, and men and women are literally equal in education, insight and authority. It is often women who are the backbone of congregations and through their service and giving many people are touched and helped. There are too many bigots who use Pauls bias to slander good ministries and much blessings. You can tell how desperate Paul is when he appeals to Adam and Eve, claiming Eve was deceived, and Adam lost responsibility for his own decisions. This is unbelievably scape-goating, Adam was as much a sinner as Eve.
Now are you prepared to ask real questions of the Bible, of your heart and of God? Remember love works within you, not by simple dictation. If you want to know the Kingdom of the Living King, you need to grow up and truly see the beauty of his gospel.....

 

[AnnaBou]

Most women are not abused by their husbands. Why should submission in a Christian marriage mean submitting to abuse? That would not be a Christian act by the husband.

I wonder if when signs say walk on the pavement some people insist on running down the road into the traffic. Because after all, once a lorry was out of control and ran people down who were on the pavement. I think no-one would think the rules were broken if someone jumps into the road out of the way of a lorry but does that mean don't teach children to keep to the pavement?

 

[Yeraza_Bats]

In that vein, Yeraza_Bats, if someone steals your car, do not file a report with police, but give to the thief your house also. And if a man at your place of employment knocks you out of the way and takes your work utensils, your computer or your tools of craft, give to him your credit card also so he can buy some more stuff on your dime. And if you happen to have a girlfriend who begins pulling your hair out by the roots and smacks you hard in the face because you "make her mad", then turn to her your other cheek so she can smack you hard on the other side of your head. And when you get married, you can teach your children the same so they can be taken advantage of all their lives as a testimony.... GOD FORBID! GOD FORBID!

Yeraza_Bats, you are young and I encourage you to get more teaching on creating boundaries in the name of Jesus. Jesus did not live a life of walking around like a weak worm turning His cheek for everyone to abuse. HE FLED THE SCENE! When it was time for Him to die for our sins, yes He submitted then for God's purpose.

Brother, "turn the other cheek" in effect means don't seek revenge and be more understanding toward people's needs rather than focus on your self all the time. THAT'S IT! Jesus gave simple instructions for all of us to learn to live in peace. He doesn't expect us to crawl along in life and be a worm for everyone to walk on. In fact, He said STAND! If all we were called to be is lowly worms for others to squash, NOBDOY would come to Christ. He draws us to Him by offering FREEDOM and PEACE and JOY and GRACE and LOVE.

What you have suggested is off-base, son. Keep seeking God on the matter and let the Holy Spirit give you wisdom on it. Grace to you.

Actually, yeah your sorta right in your first paragraph. If someone hits you, dont hit them back. If someone takes from you, let them take from you, vengeance is for the Lord to take. Christ did flee, but He did not break any laws when He did it, and He didnt actually do any wrong by doing so, He did it because He still had a job to do. But when He had to do right by God, He did.

And the third paragraph, saying He said to "stand", where do you get this? The only thing I can think of He would say to stand on is when doing right by God, but other than that, He did not fight against anyone, but let Himself be beaten, scorned and killed in Gods name. And He also gave us peace, but not in this life, in fact He actually said He did not come to bring us peace. Anywho it is from the holy spirit that Im finding these things, both from the bible and thinking about it myself with faith in God, I have noticed there are alot of Christians who talk about how God will never let anything bad happen to them, watching children on tv saying God wont let ISIS hurt them, even people who believe they will be spared from tribulation, but none of that is biblical, but there are verses in the bible about enduring suffering, not seeking vengeance or rising against those who persecute you, and having faith that God will take care of you, and take vengeance on those who hurt you. And with that, I do believe that God blesses those who endure in His name to do right by Him over those who change things themselves. If I had a wife who hit me, Im not sure what Id do, but to claim that God wouldnt want me to endure suffering, I dont believe that. God will let you suffer in this life for you to grow stronger through endurance. There may be a way a person being tormented by someone to get out of it, but not always, and if they dont then it is Gods will that they endure.


When bringing God into suffering, we are not told that we will be protected from it, but to endure in His name. God can always find you a way out of it if it serves His will, but bringing God into it, saying Hed never let it happen and will save you from it, thats not 100% biblical. Many will endure in His name, and we should know that those who endure in His name are blessed. As for a woman leaving her husband, or a husband leaving his wife because of abuse, the bible does not give us any word on that, but the bible does tell us that by doing so we break a promise to God. It may be totally true that if one became aggressive towards the other in a fight once, leaving the other because of it would be breaking a promise to God. My parents fought, and they hit each other too. Sadly my dad left for unrelated reasons, but my mother never tried to leave him, and is still married to him to this day. I believe it is right not to break a promise to God. I think peoples emotions cause them to misunderstand what I mean, I always use Gods word when relying on morals, and do not try to find loopholes. And the bible does say that we will not find peace in this life, we are not promised safety in this life, and that those who endure in His name are blessed. It could be possible that God guide you away from something, but I do believe in doing right by God, and have found that we are told that we should not marry after we lose our spouse, though it seems everyone does that, and I have been thinking about why they do it if the bible tells us not to. My point is that no one is promised total protection from suffering, but were told that God lets it happen to us, and that those who endure are blessed, and no where in the bible does it say anything different about people married to abusive spouses either. God hates angry, cruel and aggressive people, and He will take vengeance on them, but other than that He never said wed be spared from them in this life, and I still believe that God does bless those who endure.



-TLDR- I did not condemn anyone who has divorced because of abuse, I claimed that I have not seen that God supports divorce or promises that we wont suffer in this world in His word, but have found that we are told we will suffer, that this life will be hard, and that God is pleased by us when we endure with Him. God has put many people through much pain and suffering, but always for their own benefit. Im still learning Gods will, but I also have found alot of people who add in things that arent actually there, and people who change it in weird ways, but I still want to keep to His words. If its hard to imagine that God would let children die or be tormented, keep in mind that the bible tells us that it has happened and will happen again under His watch.

If you know of a verse that I dont know yet, I would like to see it, but I still believe that God does not promise anyone that they will be saved from hardship in this life, but does take care of us in the end for enduring with Him.
I dont believe anyone who divorces because of abuse is doomed to hell, but I have not found that that is actually Gods will either.

 

[Yeraza_Bats]

To clarify: I am recommending incapacitation by legal action not by the abused woman.


​

I think this is a biblical way to help those who endure marital abuse, it is Gods will that no one attack anyone else, so enforcing this seems like a biblical way to deal with this kind of a situation. I think anyone who is suffering abuse should seek help from some they trust, and find the authorities that can help in the situation. I dont know if helping someone you see suffering by force is biblical, but I dont think that arresting them and removing them from causing harm is not unbiblical.

I do believe there is always a bibilcal way and a nonbiblical way to deal with a situation. though I have not found that divorce is ever okay, I dont think that help from people you love is wrong by God, in fact we should be willing to help anyone, like God would want us to.

 

[SoulWeaver]

I dont know if helping someone you see suffering by force is biblical, but I dont think that arresting them and removing them from causing harm is not unbiblical.

Isaiah 1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
This might help