Help with big topic

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JDecree

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#1
#1
The past year I have been very burdened, afraid, and depressed due in part to giving ear to the "sinless perfection" teaching that is out there. It nearly destroyed my hope. That said I am still on the fence(scary place to be).

I know, I know, calling it sinless perfection is annoying to some proponents of it. Some call it Christian perfection, Christian maturity, entire sanctification, etc. I'm not here to iron out the correct name to use.

I have heard the proponents arguments and the scriptures they use(which are numerous). I've heard some of their testimonies. I have heard their side of things.

Frankly, at this point I think their argument is stronger. I wont lie, this scares me. But whatever is true is true either way, whether it leaves me with little hope or lots of it. In forum debates I have seen that the usual defense against sinless perfection is the same small handful of scriptures which are far from conclusive in my opinion.

The reason I post this thread, which I'm sure is a topic you have some experience with around here, is to ask for some help to see if there isnt a stronger biblical defense against sinless perfection than I am aware of. I will ask that PRO perfection people please respectfully refrain from posting in this thread.

Thank you
 
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directline2iam

Banned
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Jul 25, 2013
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Hey, just do your best, and let God do the rest. Jesus said, let him who is without sin cast the first stone. NO ONE IS PERFECT, the large crowd disappeared and not a stone was thrown. End of story. Trying to have sinless perfection is like trying to fulfill the old testament, but it's my understanding that Christ was the only one who could do this. Listen to truth.
 
Bookends

Bookends

Senior Member
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Aug 28, 2012
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Show my one bible character who was or claimed sinless perfection! The bible doesn't air brush anybody, the bible portrays all the great men of God along with all their impurities.
 
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JDecree

Guest
#4
#4
I will start it off with the common scriptures used to try to dispove SP.

1 John 1:8-10
8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

"If we say we have no sin" can just as easily mean sin in the past. Everyone agrees we have all sinned at some point. If we confess our sins, He will forgive us. Ok. "If we say we have not sinned" as in never sinned before. I cant take this passage and use it as solid evidence against SP at all. If I am missing something, please show me.

James 3:2,8
2For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.
8But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

I have seen people quote the first part of James 2:2 "in many things we offend all" but the verse goes on to speak of someone who is perfect in word. People point out the "we" in his statement. He is speaking to Christians. True, but some sinless perfectionists think perfection is a process...perhaps the people spoken of in the text were "just not quite there yet." James 3:8 says "but the tongue no man can tame" which is true, but all things are possible with God, right?

I'll post more in a bit. Note I am trying to play both sides in this to communicate my dilemma with all of this. The argument I have been having in my mind for a year straight.
 
phil36

phil36

Senior Member
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Feb 12, 2009
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Christians work on my behalf was perfect, and The Father see's me through him.. however, does that make me actually perfect in this life? I can shamefully say I still sin.. so therefore I am not.. Yet one day I know I will be perfected.. Glorified.

Personally, I think where those who believe in entire sanctification (or whatever you want to call it) have an over realised eschatology concerning themselves.
 
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JDecree

Guest
#6
#6
phil36 said:
Personally, I think where those who believe in entire sanctification (or whatever you want to call it) have an over realised eschatology concerning themselves.
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Maybe so. But maybe it is just easy for us to assume that because we havent experienced what they claim to have experienced?

The thing is, I cant follow these people around and examine them to see if they sin or not, and even if they did sin, it wouldnt prove/disprove anything.
 
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loveme1

Senior Member
#7
Oct 30, 2011
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Matthew 22


36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
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Obey the Messiah Yahshua who was without Sin.

We are perfected by His Sacrifice.

The Greatest Command is to Love a doing word.







1 Samuel 15

22And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
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jahsoul

Guest
#8
#8
*My 2 cents*

I'm somewhere in the middle of this debate. Reason being, it took me falling to see that we could live a sinless life through Christ but it's a heart/mind matter. Have the mindset of "if I sin" instead of "when I sin" really settled me down. It took me really diving into the word, realizing that our freedom is Christ is also being a slave to Him. But people do fall but we have to remember that "IF" (in quotes because the bible uses if and not when) we sin, we have an advocate. Do I believe that once people come into the knowledge of Christ, that they can live a sinless life? Yep. Do I expect it? Nope but it is okay because we have a father that is willing and able to forgive.

I also agree with your last 2 paragraphs. I think I have spoken about this before but for a lot of debates we have on here, I believe that the word has been so over intellectualized that a lot of meanings have been skewed. Not this one in particularly (mainly because I haven't seen much scripture presented on this) but there are some out there.
 
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Photoss

Photoss

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Sep 15, 2012
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Galatians 2:20, "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me."

If you're a believer, when God looks at you and your sin, He sees Christ on the cross in your place.
 
phil36

phil36

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#11
Feb 12, 2009
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JDecree said:
Maybe so. But maybe it is just easy for us to assume that because we havent experienced what they claim to have experienced?

The thing is, I cant follow these people around and examine them to see if they sin or not, and even if they did sin, it wouldnt prove/disprove anything.
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This is true but your not their watcher.. keep your eyes fixed on Christ and strive for Holiness. Only you will know if you have sinned or not and need to repent.

Personally, I know I have sinned and not even known I have, until someone else brought it to my attention.. however even though I sinned and repented, I was still perfect in the eyes of the Father looking through the perfect work of his son Jesus.

I must admit, that personally anyone who claims to be sinless in this life is misleading themselves and by implication think they are already glorified.

Being seen through Jesus by the Father as perfect is different from saying you are free from sin. But that does not mean we are not to strive to be holy or give us an excuse not to rid ourselves of sin.
 
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JDecree

Guest
#12
#12
jahsoul said:
Do I believe that once people come into the knowledge of Christ, that they can live a sinless life? Yep. Do I expect it? Nope but it is okay because we have a father that is willing and able to forgive.
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Fair enough, I am not as confident that it is okay to not live a sinless life though. I mean if it is literally/physically/mentally/spiritually possible to not sin at all, then why would it not be required in order to be saved? To me it just follows that that would be the case. They say "no sin can enter heaven" and scripture says "without holiness no one will see the LORD" "depart from me you worker of iniquity" "having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof" etc.

This is my whole problem...if sinless perfection is true, in my understanding, it is required. I am obviously not sinless, therefor I am not saved. I wont be saved until I am sinless. This is why when you ask a strict perfectionist if they are saved they will NOT answer you. They dont know if they are.
 
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jahsoul

Guest
#13
#13
JDecree said:
Fair enough, I am not as confident that it is okay to not live a sinless life though. I mean if it is literally/physically/mentally/spiritually possible to not sin at all, then why would it not be required in order to be saved? To me it just follows that that would be the case. They say "no sin can enter heaven" and scripture says "without holiness no one will see the LORD" "depart from me you worker of iniquity" "having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof" etc.

This is my whole problem...if sinless perfection is true, in my understanding, it is required. I am obviously not sinless, therefor I am not saved. I wont be saved until I am sinless. This is why when you ask a strict perfectionist if they are saved they will NOT answer you. They dont know if they are.
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1 John 2:1 clearly states that John was writing his writings that we may not sin but IF we sin, we have an advocate with the Father in Christ. So the best advice that I can give you is strive to live a sinless life while Christ in working in you and if you do fall, remember that restoration. That's the way that I approach this walk. I know that it is not in my own power, but I thank God for his Holy Spirit that dwells.
 
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nathan3

Guest
#14
#14
I never heard of it. If i never heard of it might just not be written. Sinless perfection ? it just sounds like a catch phrase.

I don't know where its written that Christ came to perfect people??I read He came to the sick , the sinners. To call them to repentance. Repentance, is after one has sinned, feels guilt or remorse for a wrong done, and has a desire to change repents of that sin to The Heavenly Father , in Christ name. Then that sin is blotted out; forgiven. Until you fall short, of something, and its needful for you to repent of whatever is getting in between you and God again.

Christ was asked in the Bible, " How, many times should I forgive my brother ( in a day mind you ). Christ said, 7 x 70. That equals 490 times. So God is apt and able to forgive you, in Christ name, that is what Christ does for a Christian. Forgivness is what Christianity is all about.

So maybe I'm premature in commenting on something i don't know about " sinless perfection " ? whatever that means. But I hope some of it helped here...

You got to be careful of man, because they will try to parade you down primrose lane if your not careful to ignore their traditions .

primrose lane, is like some one deceiving a person, through trying to convince them into being cought up into something that is seemingly holy., meaning, something special for the purpose to deceive. Not that its indented that way, but its what it leads to, away from What is acutally ritten
 
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HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

Senior Member
#15
Sep 4, 2012
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JDecree said:
Fair enough, I am not as confident that it is okay to not live a sinless life though. I mean if it is literally/physically/mentally/spiritually possible to not sin at all, then why would it not be required in order to be saved? To me it just follows that that would be the case. They say "no sin can enter heaven" and scripture says "without holiness no one will see the LORD" "depart from me you worker of iniquity" "having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof" etc.

This is my whole problem...if sinless perfection is true, in my understanding, it is required. I am obviously not sinless, therefor I am not saved. I wont be saved until I am sinless. This is why when you ask a strict perfectionist if they are saved they will NOT answer you. They dont know if they are.
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Holy does not mean sinless. Holy means set apart for GOD's use. Consider the bronze laver that was between the altar and the holy place in the tabernacle. The sanctified priests had to continually wash themselves in it to cleanse the defilement they received from handling the sin-laden sacrifices. These were sanctified, holy people who had to continually cleanse themselves from the defilement of sin, or else they would die. That was just a shadow of our condition in which we are sanctified, and set apart and acceptable to GOD, but still have to deal with the ongoing defilement of our sinful nature.
 
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JDecree

Guest
#16
#16
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
Holy does not mean sinless. Holy means set apart for GOD's use. Consider the bronze laver that was between the altar and the holy place in the tabernacle. The sanctified priests had to continually wash themselves in it to cleanse the defilement they received from handling the sin-laden sacrifices. These were sanctified, holy people who had to continually cleanse themselves from the defilement of sin, or else they would die. That was just a shadow of our condition in which we are sanctified, and set apart and acceptable to GOD, but still have to deal with the ongoing defilement of our sinful nature.
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Very good comparison. The only way it might fail is that now we have Christ as our high priest who is perfect and have His Spirit which then enables us to be perfect to where we dont need to continually cleanse ourselves. I dont know, again just playing the other side here. Very good use of the tabernacle example. This is the kind of thing I am looking for!
 
HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

Senior Member
#17
Sep 4, 2012
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JDecree said:
Very good comparison. The only way it might fail is that now we have Christ as our high priest who is perfect and have His Spirit which then enables us to be perfect to where we dont need to continually cleanse ourselves. I dont know, again just playing the other side here. Very good use of the tabernacle example. This is the kind of thing I am looking for!
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The one who says he has no sin (nature) is deceived and a liar. Any and all having a sinful nature need continual cleansing.

It is not possible to have sin; sin is a verb; something we do. It is an act of rebellion. It is not possible to have rebellion, but it is possible to have a rebellious, sinful nature. Therefore, when John said 'if we say we have no sin', IMO, he was saying "if we say we have no sin nature'.
 
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JDecree

Guest
#18
#18
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
The one who says he has no sin (nature) is deceived and a liar. Any and all having a sinful nature need continual cleansing.

It is not possible to have sin; sin is a verb; something we do. It is an act of rebellion. It is not possible to have rebellion, but it is possible to have a rebellious, sinful nature. Therefore, when John said 'if we say we have no sin', IMO, he was saying "if we say we have no sin nature'.
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Thank you. I just wish it was clearer. You can read it your way or read it the other way. Do I have to become a greek scholar to know for sure? :( This is why I hope to find other scriptures that speak to this topic that arent normally brought up(like your tabernacle comparison) because those arent so focused on definitions, grammar, translations etc.

Thanks for your help guys. I'm gonna find more scripture to post in a bit here after I eat.
 
J

JDecree

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#19
#19
One of the stronger points I have heard is that if our sinful flesh has been made perfect already then the "perfect" would not physically die. I dont know if that holds up or not under scrutiny but on the surface it seems logical.

We could get into Romans 7, but that has been debated forever and you almost have to flip a coin as to which way you believe it goes. Either Paul describing his life pre-Christ but living as a Pharisee who knows the law and is unable to perform it, or Paul describing the whole of his life in Christ where he fights this war between the 2 natures within him. Who knows. But I *will* however bring this verse into the mix from Romans 7 verse 17: "17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me."

That is all that is coming to mind right now.
 
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nathan3

Guest
#20
#20
JDecree said:
One of the stronger points I have heard is that if our sinful flesh has been made perfect already then the "perfect" would not physically die. I dont know if that holds up or not under scrutiny but on the surface it seems logical.

We could get into Romans 7, but that has been debated forever and you almost have to flip a coin as to which way you believe it goes. Either Paul describing his life pre-Christ but living as a Pharisee who knows the law and is unable to perform it, or Paul describing the whole of his life in Christ where he fights this war between the 2 natures within him. Who knows. But I *will* however bring this verse into the mix from Romans 7 verse 17: "17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me."

That is all that is coming to mind right now.
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I recommend taking some time to read the entire book of Romans here for another perspective ( more detailed look maybe ) Link
>>> romans

Romans 7:17 "Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me."

We are in our flesh bodies, in the carnal, we will continue to sin while in the sin. This is not an excuse to sin, while in the flesh, but Paul is letting us, the saved of God know that as we try to live for Christ, in the flesh, we still have that old nature with us. Friend, this is reality and we must be aware of our condition while in the flesh, so we can be on guard and try to control that flesh nature that we have.

Romans 7:18 "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good, I find not."

Notice here that Paul is relating to being in the flesh "(that is, in my flesh,)" because there are two of us, the spiritual and the flesh. This is Paul the Apostle of Jesus Christ speaking and saying that there is no good thing in his flesh body and his old flesh nature. "To will is present with me", means that Paul wants to do what is right, but it seems that I just don't have to power within me to always do that which is right.

If you can come to the point of understanding what Paul has just said in these past few verses, then you will see what a blessing we have in seeing our shortfall, and sins, even when we do not know why did the thing; in our ability to repent to the Father, and apologize to those that we have hurt, and by faith in Jesus make it right eternally.

Our Heavenly Father understands you just as you understand and forgive your own tiny child when that child comes to you and says "I'm sorry mommy, or daddy". What do you say to your small child? "That's okay, I'll take care of it," and you do. It is forgotten, even though you know that it will probably happen again. That is how our Heavenly Father takes care of His children, you and I. He knows you are not perfect, for He created your flesh body in a manner that you can hear His Word and chose to follow Him and trust Him, or reject Him.
 
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