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J

JDecree

Guest
#41
The problem with perfection is twofold; anything less than perfection is not perfect, and you cant add or improve upon perfection either.

Does the new testament have a tendency to speak about GROWTH as a Christian? Abounding more and more? Helping one another to be more holy? There is clearly a process of growth in the scriptures. However this can still allow for "sinless perfection" as an ultimate and reachable end goal before death.

Many say that yes, it begins like you and I have experienced. Major life change, new desires, love for the scriptures, love for Christ, battling the sins you once had no issue with etc...all biblical. THEN they say eventually, God's Spirit is poured out on *some* in a major way and then this "perfection" happens. They will admit to still being tempted, and say things like "I dont *usually* sin" or "I dont *plan* to sin." They claim long periods of months or years where they "have no conscience of sin" but they do eventually sin. It may or may not be biblical, but it isnt perfection.

Either way you see it, either sanctification leading to glorification after death, or complete sanctification before death, the question still plagues me: Why striving for perfection? To be saved? Obviously it is to live a life that pleases the God who ransomed you out of love for Him. To be a light to the world. To do that which is right, which is only beneficial. But is it to be saved?
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#42
The problem with perfection is twofold; anything less than perfection is not perfect, and you cant add or improve upon perfection either.

Does the new testament have a tendency to speak about GROWTH as a Christian? Abounding more and more? Helping one another to be more holy? There is clearly a process of growth in the scriptures. However this can still allow for "sinless perfection" as an ultimate and reachable end goal before death.

Many say that yes, it begins like you and I have experienced. Major life change, new desires, love for the scriptures, love for Christ, battling the sins you once had no issue with etc...all biblical. THEN they say eventually, God's Spirit is poured out on *some* in a major way and then this "perfection" happens. They will admit to still being tempted, and say things like "I dont *usually* sin" or "I dont *plan* to sin." They claim long periods of months or years where they "have no conscience of sin" but they do eventually sin. It may or may not be biblical, but it isnt perfection.

Either way you see it, either sanctification leading to glorification after death, or complete sanctification before death, the question still plagues me: Why striving for perfection? To be saved? Obviously it is to live a life that pleases the God who ransomed you out of love for Him. To be a light to the world. To do that which is right, which is only beneficial. But is it to be saved?
People who think they are sinless have lowered the threshold of the definition of sin to their level of performance or awareness. Whatever is not of faith is sin.

All injustice is sin... 1 John 5:17

...the just one will live by faith.” Galatians 3:11

...whatsoever is not of faith is sin. Romans 14:23
Who is willing to admit that they have perfect (flawless) faith? Let me be the first to call that person a liar.

We strive for perfection (maturity), not to be saved, but to be whole. GOD is not concerned with flawlessness on our part. He would like to see it, but he knows our weak frame. He desires honesty and mercy.

By mercy and truth iniquity is cleansed: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil. Proverbs 16:6​

If we are honest and truthful, the spirit of truth abides with us and helps us to grow into maturity (perfection), just as a child grows into maturity under the watchful, patient eye of its parents.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#43
Isn't sinless perfection a strawman often used as an objection to heart purity?





When Jesus commanded...

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Is not this perfection within the context of heart purity (Mat 5:8), an inward righteousness (Mat 5:20) as opposed to a mere form of outward righteousness (Mat 5:21-28)?

I think Paul summed it up well when he wrote...

1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

Love out of a pure heart, a good conscience and therefore of faith unfeigned.

Jesus put it like this...

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

John taught...

1Jn 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

The purpose of the commandment is to love. Love is the opposite of sin.

The simple truth is that...

1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jn 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

If we still love the world and the things of the world we can be sure that the love of God is not in us. If on the other hand we have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust (2Pet 1:4) through the great and precious promises whereby we have been given all things that pertain to life and godliness (2Pet 1:3) and we therefore are doing the will of God then we will abide forever.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#44
The Bible does not teach sinless perfection.

The Bible teaches heart purity.
 
J

JDecree

Guest
#45
Isn't sinless perfection a strawman often used as an objection to heart purity?
I dont care what it is called. Do you see me objecting to being holy?

I am looking at my actions and heart and seeing that I am rotten. If you and your understanding are correct, I am a dead man. If you think searching for whether I am right or not by examining both sides is my way of excusing my behavior, then I was right to add you to my ignore list(I politely asked for sinless perfectionists to refrain from posting, I see you couldnt help yourself).
 
J

JDecree

Guest
#46
Skinski7 said:
The Bible does not teach sinless perfection.

The Bible teaches heart purity.
A pure heart will bring pure actions. You might even say pure is equal to perfect. Therefore you will have perfect actions. Sinless perfection.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#47
I am looking at my actions and heart and seeing that I am rotten.
You don't know how blessed you are.

By mercy and truth iniquity is cleansed: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil. Proverbs 16:6
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#48
I dont care what it is called. Do you see me objecting to being holy?

I am looking at my actions and heart and seeing that I am rotten. If you and your understanding are correct, I am a dead man. If you think searching for whether I am right or not by examining both sides is my way of excusing my behavior, then I was right to add you to my ignore list(I politely asked for sinless perfectionists to refrain from posting, I see you couldnt help yourself).
I am not a sinless perfectionist.

I wrote a post about heart purity. I am sorry it offended you. The Bible clearly teaches heart purity and Jesus Himself stated that the pure in heart will see God.

Faith purifies the heart (Act 15:9) and obedience to the truth by the Spirit purifies the soul (1Pet 1:21). We can indeed be pure through abiding in Jesus Christ whose word makes us clean (Joh 15:3) without whom we can do nothing (Joh 15:4-5).
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#49
A pure heart will bring pure actions. You might even say pure is equal to perfect. Therefore you will have perfect actions. Sinless perfection.
A pure heart will produce actions from a pure motive. Sin in the Bible is defined from knowingly doing evil all the way to doing wrong in ignorance (hence the differences in sin alluded to in Numbers 15 and 1Joh 5). There is a big difference between sinning in ignorance when the motive is pure than sinning willfully in outright rebellion to God. Sinless perfection implies that those who are pure do not make mistakes, misjudgments or do anything imperfect thus negating any need to grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ. Sinless perfection as a requirement for entering the kingdom is a false teaching but heart purity as a requirement is not. It is the pure in heart will see God.
 
J

JDecree

Guest
#50
Are you there yet? Arent you scared? I am.
 

Kreation

Senior Member
Sep 19, 2013
169
4
0
#51
If we start teaching 'sinless perfection' then we are going way out of context.

The whole point of christianity is that Jesus had to come down to die for us because we are sinful. and we will only become sinless at his second coming to receive his church.

People teaching the sinless perfection are taking the whole glory away from Christ's sacrifice. He died so we can have eternal life, and that was our only path to it. No sinless perfection.

Jdecree, you have probably experienced how muslims feel and now you can turn this around and relate to them and can minister better by showing empathy :). Their religion teaches that you have to lead a sinless life. They are taught that all are born sin free and at their judgement there have weighing scales weighing up the good and bad. It must be so scary for them to live their life in fear!

I am so thankful that God is so loving that "he gave his one and only son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" John 3:16

It's false doctrine, prove me otherwise :) :) :) I bet you can't! :) Hope you have peace from this
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#52
I will start it off with the common scriptures used to try to dispove SP.

1 John 1:8-10
8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.


"If we say we have no sin" can just as easily mean sin in the past. Everyone agrees we have all sinned at some point. If we confess our sins, He will forgive us. Ok. "If we say we have not sinned" as in never sinned before. I cant take this passage and use it as solid evidence against SP at all. If I am missing something, please show me.
Not true, The origional language has "no sin" as a present tense verb. If this was going to be a past tense verb, it would show in the text.

He is literally including himself in that passage, If I say I have no sin (present tense) I decieve myself..
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#53
I will just say this.

1. What is the true defenition of sin. what makes sin a sin.
2. Can you or anyone else honestly say you are able to accomplish this 24/7?

I believe, like paul, the more mature you get, the more sinfull you realise you are.

Remember, paul, a pharisee of all pharisee who would not be charged as a sinner, and probably did obey the law better than most people have, Considered himself in his later years, the chief of all sinners.. A wretched man. etc etc.. If we think we have arrived.. we are in danger.. because we excuse our own sin..
 
J

JDecree

Guest
#54
I have to apologize to you Skinski7, I think somewhere along the line I misunderstood your views.

I am on edge. A year ago I came across certain individuals on youtube that teach sinless perfection(though I am sure they dont call it that.......) and it damaged me. Suddenly salvation was not mine if they were right. Suddenly all I had experienced with the LORD was not what I thought if they were right. The good news of the gospel became the "pretty good news IF" gospel.

So I am a little sensitive to anything that appears to be sinless perfection in order to be saved teaching. I want the truth though, no matter how it makes me feel. If I am not right with the LORD, I want to know it...as long as there is still hope for me to respond accordingly.

Have my motives and heart changed dramatically since becoming a believer? Absolutely. What I once loved I now hate and seek to remove from my life. What I once despised I now have a fondness for. I care more for those I never would have before. I think on the LORD daily. I want to be better. I am slowly growing. All glory to God.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#55
I have to apologize to you Skinski7, I think somewhere along the line I misunderstood your views.

I am on edge. A year ago I came across certain individuals on youtube that teach sinless perfection(though I am sure they dont call it that.......) and it damaged me. Suddenly salvation was not mine if they were right. Suddenly all I had experienced with the LORD was not what I thought if they were right. The good news of the gospel became the "pretty good news IF" gospel.

So I am a little sensitive to anything that appears to be sinless perfection in order to be saved teaching. I want the truth though, no matter how it makes me feel. If I am not right with the LORD, I want to know it...as long as there is still hope for me to respond accordingly.

Have my motives and heart changed dramatically since becoming a believer? Absolutely. What I once loved I now hate and seek to remove from my life. What I once despised I now have a fondness for. I care more for those I never would have before. I think on the LORD daily. I want to be better. I am slowly growing. All glory to God.
Be carefull with him, He is tricky.

What does scripture say?

before I come to Christ, I can do no good (there is non who are righteous, our works are as filthy rags)
After I come to Christ, I have the power to do good. But no where does it say I will be perfect. And no where does it say my eternal life depends on it, if it does. we are under law not grace.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#56
I will just say this.

1. What is the true defenition of sin. what makes sin a sin.
2. Can you or anyone else honestly say you are able to accomplish this 24/7?

I believe, like paul, the more mature you get, the more sinfull you realise you are.

Remember, paul, a pharisee of all pharisee who would not be charged as a sinner, and probably did obey the law better than most people have, Considered himself in his later years, the chief of all sinners.. A wretched man. etc etc.. If we think we have arrived.. we are in danger.. because we excuse our own sin..
Did Paul consider himself as the "chief of sinners" within the context of that he was still "inwardly filthy"?

Remember Paul's statement of, "that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief" is within the context of...

1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
1Ti 1:11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
1Ti 1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
1Ti 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
1Ti 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Paul was not writing in the context that he still did those things. Rather Paul clearly taught about walking blameless...

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Php 2:14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
Php 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

One does not shine as a light, in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, walking as the chief of sinners. Rather, the sons of God shine as lights in the world by being led of the Spirit of God where the deeds of the body are mortified (ie. no longer ruled by the lusts of the flesh).

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Immediately after Paul spoke of being the chief of sinners he wrote...

1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

It is through Paul that Jesus Christ demonstrated the longsuffering of God that we may all believe on Him unto life everlasting. Sentiment Paul echoed when he wrote...

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

A pattern to be made manifest where we are indeed redeemed from all iniquity and made pure.

Tit 2:7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
Tit 2:8 Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.
Tit 2:9 Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again;
Tit 2:10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Paul taught heart purity as opposed to perpetual wretchedness.

If God could transform Paul from being a persecutor of Christian's, a man who sought his righteousness in the letter of the law, a man who did not love his neighbour, a man who blasphemed God, into a man pure before God walking blameless by a faith that worked by love fighting the good fight of faith unto the end then God can most certainly transform all of us in like manner.

So while Paul claimed to be the chief of sinners he was not implying perpetual inward wickedness whilst in the flesh, rather he contrasting the transformation from darkness to light in those who believe.




Jesus taught heart purity and He meant it.

Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

The purpose of the commandment is to manifest heart purity in those who might believe.

1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,783
2,947
113
#57

I have no way of confirming either the tense of the verb or whether 1 John was written to combat gnosticism unfortunately. I cant understand the Strong's half the time...I see according to this: 1 John 1:8 Greek Text Analysis the "morphology" says it is in the present tense, but the strongs doesnt seem to confirm(or deny?) that. I am quite ignorant about these things.
According to the New Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the New Testament by Cleon L. Rogers Jr. and Cleon L. Rogers III, page 592 the verb "have" ἔχομεν is indeed in the present indicative active tense. It is also first person plural, meaning he is talking about WE have. Hope that helps on this issue.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#58
Did Paul consider himself as the "chief of sinners" within the context of that he was still "inwardly filthy"?

Remember Paul's statement of, "that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief" is within the context of...

1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
1Ti 1:11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
1Ti 1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
1Ti 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
1Ti 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Paul was not writing in the context that he still did those things. Rather Paul clearly taught about walking blameless...

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Php 2:14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
Php 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

One does not shine as a light, in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, walking as the chief of sinners. Rather, the sons of God shine as lights in the world by being led of the Spirit of God where the deeds of the body are mortified (ie. no longer ruled by the lusts of the flesh).

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Immediately after Paul spoke of being the chief of sinners he wrote...

1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

It is through Paul that Jesus Christ demonstrated the longsuffering of God that we may all believe on Him unto life everlasting. Sentiment Paul echoed when he wrote...

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

A pattern to be made manifest where we are indeed redeemed from all iniquity and made pure.

Tit 2:7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
Tit 2:8 Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.
Tit 2:9 Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again;
Tit 2:10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Paul taught heart purity as opposed to perpetual wretchedness.

If God could transform Paul from being a persecutor of Christian's, a man who sought his righteousness in the letter of the law, a man who did not love his neighbour, a man who blasphemed God, into a man pure before God walking blameless by a faith that worked by love fighting the good fight of faith unto the end then God can most certainly transform all of us in like manner.

So while Paul claimed to be the chief of sinners he was not implying perpetual inward wickedness whilst in the flesh, rather he contrasting the transformation from darkness to light in those who believe.




Jesus taught heart purity and He meant it.

Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

The purpose of the commandment is to manifest heart purity in those who might believe.

1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

Dude. Once again, if you going to persist in long posts. Don't bother. Most people here do not have time to go through every point.

Second. Paul admited he did them, yes. But he never claimed he was sinless. Nor was that the complete context of what he meant, There are many FAR FAR worst sinners than what peul did, Even he knew and understood this. He was not saying he was worst than them. SO get over yourself.

Paul considered himself blameless according to the law
Phil 3: [SUP]6 [/SUP]concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

My righteounsess is found in Christ, Not by the law. but by the spirit. I will not be perfect. To be perfect means that 24/7 I have an outward focused mind in everything I do. No man can or does do this. Thus there can be no perfection. Even paul understood this. Your still learning, and still trying to excuse your own sin which you deny, and condemning others.
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
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#59
I have to apologize to you Skinski7, I think somewhere along the line I misunderstood your views.

I am on edge. A year ago I came across certain individuals on youtube that teach sinless perfection(though I am sure they dont call it that.......) and it damaged me. Suddenly salvation was not mine if they were right. Suddenly all I had experienced with the LORD was not what I thought if they were right. The good news of the gospel became the "pretty good news IF" gospel.

So I am a little sensitive to anything that appears to be sinless perfection in order to be saved teaching. I want the truth though, no matter how it makes me feel. If I am not right with the LORD, I want to know it...as long as there is still hope for me to respond accordingly.

Have my motives and heart changed dramatically since becoming a believer? Absolutely. What I once loved I now hate and seek to remove from my life. What I once despised I now have a fondness for. I care more for those I never would have before. I think on the LORD daily. I want to be better. I am slowly growing. All glory to God.
Dig deep and be careful in what manner you hear. There are many false teachers and there are many on youtube.

The Gospel is simple. Stop doing evil (what you know is evil) and turn to God. Abide in the grace of God walking in the light. Do that and God will lead you into all truth.

Salvation is being saved FROM sin as opposed to being saved IN sin. Thus if we are truly redeemed we are no longer bonded to serve sin and have therefore escaped the lusts of the flesh because we have crucified those lusts.

This is not to say we are no longer tempted because temptation is common to man. We take the way of escape because we walk in the Spirit being led of the Spirit.

Don't confuse temptation with sin. The flesh in and of itself is not sinful. The flesh in and of itself tempts us with the natural passions and sin is manifested if we yield to these passions in disobedience to God. Hence the corruption in the world is through the lusts of the flesh.

We who are Christ's have crucified those lusts for we have been crucified with Christ whereby we now live for God. Basically we are no longer in rebellion to God walking our own way and us thus receptive to being taught as a child. God can not lead us unto all righteousness whereby our fruit is unto holiness the end of which is everlasting life.
 
B

BeanieD

Guest
#60
We TRY to live a sinless life but as humans this is impossible. There is intentional sin and unintentional sin. Intentional is that we keep living our old life or at least some parts of it and expect to be forgiven. Unintentional sin is something that happens without realizing, or slipping a bit, and these will be forgiven when we ask. I think our perfection is in the eyes of God, and not in our physical life. Main thing is to rely on God to help get through the parts that we are still having trouble with.

Blessings always