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J

JDecree

Guest
#21
#21
nathan3 said:
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Yep I hear you and understand it pretty well imo. It is the way I thought prior to hearing this sinless stuff. I want it to be true(the common understanding of salvation, opposite to this perfection idea). If it were true, there is not only hope, but I am already in the position to recieve the end of that hope: eternal life with the LORD of all creation.

So I seek to find out if it is true or not.

I think ultimately, the answer can only come from the LORD. Or better put, only He can allow me to see the answer I have probably already seen a thousand times. And if we are to be perfect, it is ONLY possible through Him. There isnt much more I can do about it. Either the LORD will make me so or He wont. All I can do is wait faithfully.
 
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HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

Senior Member
#22
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
689
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#22
JDecree said:
One of the stronger points I have heard is that if our sinful flesh has been made perfect already then the "perfect" would not physically die. I dont know if that holds up or not under scrutiny but on the surface it seems logical.
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If the flesh has been perfected, why is it not able to inherit the kingdom of GOD?

But I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood is not able to inherit the kingdom of God, nor can corruption inherit incorruptibility. 1 Corinthians 15:50​
 
N

nathan3

Guest
#23
#23
JDecree said:
Yep I hear you and understand it pretty well imo. It is the way I thought prior to hearing this sinless stuff. I want it to be true(the common understanding of salvation, opposite to this perfection idea). If it were true, there is not only hope, but I am already in the position to recieve the end of that hope: eternal life with the LORD of all creation.

So I seek to find out if it is true or not.

I think ultimately, the answer can only come from the LORD. Or better put, only He can allow me to see the answer I have probably already seen a thousand times. And if we are to be perfect, it is ONLY possible through Him. There isnt much more I can do about it. Either the LORD will make me so or He wont. All I can do is wait faithfully.
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hmm i think i see maybe, where the problem is ? that you dont know if your saved or not ? im not sure. That should take place once you accept Christ into your life, a filthy rag as we all may be.
 
M

mpaper345

Banned
#24
Feb 9, 2010
2,486
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0
#24
We can never be perfect because we are led of the flesh which the Bible says there is no good thing that dwells in the flesh but if we are led of the Spirit the Bible says we cannot sin.We can still be tempted while led of the Spirit but we will not sin.

The Bible says if you are led of the Spirit you will not fulfill the desires of the flesh and if you are born of God you cannot sin.

If we are led of the Spirit we will act like Christ but we can still be led away with the flesh if we want to sin but can get back in the Spirit when we repent of that sin.
 
thecreationtutor

thecreationtutor

Senior Member
#25
Jun 30, 2011
2,521
35
0
#25
JDecree said:
The past year I have been very burdened, afraid, and depressed due in part to giving ear to the "sinless perfection" teaching that is out there. It nearly destroyed my hope. That said I am still on the fence(scary place to be).

I know, I know, calling it sinless perfection is annoying to some proponents of it. Some call it Christian perfection, Christian maturity, entire sanctification, etc. I'm not here to iron out the correct name to use.

I have heard the proponents arguments and the scriptures they use(which are numerous). I've heard some of their testimonies. I have heard their side of things.

Frankly, at this point I think their argument is stronger. I wont lie, this scares me. But whatever is true is true either way, whether it leaves me with little hope or lots of it. In forum debates I have seen that the usual defense against sinless perfection is the same small handful of scriptures which are far from conclusive in my opinion.

The reason I post this thread, which I'm sure is a topic you have some experience with around here, is to ask for some help to see if there isnt a stronger biblical defense against sinless perfection than I am aware of. I will ask that PRO perfection people please respectfully refrain from posting in this thread.

Thank you
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Precious Remedies Against Satan

Hey - check this out man
 
J

jahsoul

Guest
#26
#26
nathan3 said:
CUT QUOTE TO SAVE ROOM
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I'm no theologian nor pretend to be one but I clicked on the link and the description for Romans 7 seemed kind of misleading to me. Paul wasn't talking about "sin in us though we have risen with Christ" in Chapter 7. Paul was talking specifically about being under the Law. While the Law in itself was not bad, it could not bring salvation. The Law showed him what was sin and sin used that as an opportunity to fill the flesh with evil desires. That leads into the Romans 8, telling us that there is now no condemnation because we are under the Spirit. The Law was weak because of our flesh, but Jesus fulfilled the righteous requirement of the Law in those who walk according to the spirit.
 
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nathan3

Guest
#27
#27
jahsoul said:
I'm no theologian nor pretend to be one but I clicked on the link and the description for Romans 7 seemed kind of misleading to me. Paul wasn't talking about "sin in us though we have risen with Christ" in Chapter 7. Paul was talking specifically about being under the Law. While the Law in itself was not bad, it could not bring salvation. The Law showed him what was sin and sin used that as an opportunity to fill the flesh with evil desires. That leads into the Romans 8, telling us that there is now no condemnation because we are under the Spirit. The Law was weak because of our flesh, but Jesus fulfilled the righteous requirement of the Law in those who walk according to the spirit.
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I'm not sure how much you got to read there
 
D

DJCATAZ

Guest
#28
#28
ἐὰν εἴπωμεν ὅτι ἁμαρτίαν οὐκ ἔχομεν 1John 1:8
The verb "To have" is in the present. If we say "we have" no sin. This isn't talking about past sins this is a present tense verb. The letter of 1John is written again Gnostic heresy in which some claimed that they no loner had sin or that they no longer committed sin or they could do as they wish and it wasn't sin for them. The point is if anyone every claims that they don't sin they're a liar and the truth is not in them (Which makes them a sinner. Liar=sinner).
 
HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

Senior Member
#29
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
689
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#29
Sinless perfectionists wrongly believe that holiness is sinlessness; and that they achieve holiness by becoming sinless through their own efforts.

This is obviously not the picture painted in the bible. An example is sin offerings, which were considered most holy; any priest that touched them was made holy.

Speak unto Aaron and to his sons, saying, This is the law of the sin offering: In the place where the burnt offering is killed shall the sin offering be killed before the LORD: it is most holy. The priest that offereth it for sin shall eat it: in the holy place shall it be eaten, in the court of the tabernacle of the congregation. Whatsoever shall touch the flesh thereof shall be holy: and when there is sprinkled of the blood thereof upon any garment, thou shalt wash that whereon it was sprinkled in the holy place. But the earthen vessel wherein it is sodden shall be broken: and if it be sodden in a brasen pot, it shall be both scoured, and rinsed in water. All the males among the priests shall eat thereof: it is most holy. Leviticus 6:25-29​

So holiness is not what men do, but what GOD declares is holy. Sin offerings were obviously corrupted with sin, yet they were most holy. And that holiness was transferred to anyone that touched them.

So likewise, the holy spirit makes anyone holy whom it touches and abides with.
 
J

JDecree

Guest
#30
#30
HeRoseFromTheDead:

Good catch on 1 Corinthians 15:50 :) Also the sin offering point you made.

Nathan3:
"hmm i think i see maybe, where the problem is ? that you dont know if your saved or not ? im not sure. That should take place once you accept Christ into your life, a filthy rag as we all may be."

That all depends on what is true. If reality is as you believe, then I probably am saved. If it is as the perfectionists say, I am not saved.

thecreationtutor:

Thanks for the link, I will definitely read it. :)

DJCATAZ:

I have no way of confirming either the tense of the verb or whether 1 John was written to combat gnosticism unfortunately. I cant understand the Strong's half the time...I see according to this: 1 John 1:8 Greek Text Analysis the "morphology" says it is in the present tense, but the strongs doesnt seem to confirm(or deny?) that. I am quite ignorant about these things.
 
N

nathan3

Guest
#31
#31
JDecree said:
Nathan3:
"hmm i think i see maybe, where the problem is ? that you dont know if your saved or not ? im not sure. That should take place once you accept Christ into your life, a filthy rag as we all may be."

That all depends on what is true. If reality is as you believe, then I probably am saved. If it is as the perfectionists say, I am not saved.
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We can trust what John wrote here.


John 3:16-17

King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
 
HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

Senior Member
#32
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
689
113
#32
JDecree said:
Good catch on 1 Corinthians 15:50 :) Also the sin offering point you made.
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Keep in mind that the priests eating the sinful sin-offerings that were most holy is just a shadow of us, the new covenant priests, 'eating' the sacrifice of Christ, who makes us holy in spite of our sinful nature.

The one who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. John 6:54

We have an altar from which those [priests] who serve in the [earthly] temple do not have the right to eat. Hebrews 13:10​
 
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C

Canchristiansgetalong

Guest
#33
#33
Matt 5:48, Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

When Christ give a commandment, I believe he makes a way for us to fulfill it. However, I will not be perfect in this life nor do I believe that any man...(well, there could be a few exception in the past with a few of the Prophets) will be in this life. What I do believe is that we can be perfect in the little things that we are commanded to do. There is one of the ten commandments that I know I am perfect in: Thou shalt not Kill. :) Also on a week to week bases, I can be perfect in praying every morning and every night and in my scripture study. My point is that Perfection is a process and starts with the smallest things. I think Perfection is something to patiently aim for, but with the knowledge that we cannot ever become so without perfectly knowing the Savior. That, of course, is something that will happen for us after this life, but for now we work on becoming perfect in the small things and once we master one commandment, move to the next. None of us are sinless and to think so means we should probably spend more time on our kneels talking with God about honesty with ourselves.:)
 
S

shayne

Guest
#34
#34
Moses was a murderer!
King David was too; and an adulterer!

Who would doubt that God loved and still loves those two immensely?

God loves us too, in spite of our imperfections. But He has promised that once this life is done, we will be incorruptible!

Until that day we, unfortunately, have to live in our imperfect and sinful bodies.

We can just relax and know that through our confession, and repentance, our sins are covered by the precious blood of Jesus.

Roll on that day when we are truly like Jesus!
 
HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

Senior Member
#35
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
689
113
#35
JDecree,
Here's some info on the Greek word that is translated perfect in some bibles.

Strong's
G5046 τέλειος teleios (tel'-ei-os) adj.
1. complete

Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (Abridged) - Usage in the NT
  1. The use in Matthew carries the LXX sense of “whole” or “undivided.” Thus the rich young ruler is not yet “undivided” in his obedience to God (19:20). God is undivided in his conduct toward us, and so must we be in our conduct toward him and others (5:48). Our total love should encompass even enemies.
  2. The sense “whole” or “complete” also occurs in Jms. 1:4. Those are whole who do the whole work and whose steadfastness works itself out fully. This means looking into the “entire” law of liberty (1:25) and doing it. This law brings liberty with its observance. It finds fulfilment in love but also in self-control, for the whole person bridles the whole body, including the tongue (3:2ff.). What is “whole” and without fault comes from God (1:17). “Full” and “unlimited” love leaves no place for fear (1 Jn. 4:18). This love comes from God (v. 16) in the sending of the Son that removes fear of judgment (v. 10). The command to be “completely” sober in 1 Pet. 1:13 is ethically related and eschatologically grounded.
  3. In the Pauline corpus “whole” seems to be the sense in 1 Cor. 13:10. The gifts do not give the full knowledge which is to come. Col. 4:12 refers to the solid position of those who are “complete” in God’s total will. Yet the idea of maturity is also present, as in 1:28, where Paul’s aim is to present believers “full-grown” under the direction and in the power of Christ’s cross and resurrection. téleios may thus be the opposite of nḗpios etc. (1 Cor. 14:20; cf. Phil. 3:15 and perhaps 1 Cor. 2:6, where the truly mature understand the message of the cross as the wisdom of God). In Rom. 12:2 knowledge of the entire or perfect will of God comes through the renewing of judgment by the Spirit.
  4. Heb. 5:14 distinguishes between initial doctrines for nḗpioi and full fare for the mature (téleioi) who know God’s will and can differentiate good and evil. In 9:11 the heavenly sanctuary is “more perfect” than the provisional temple.
  5. The NT never seems to use téleios for a gradual advance to Christian perfection or for a two-graded ideal of ethical perfection. It plainly means “whole” or “entire” in Matthew, Paul, and the Catholic Epistles, and it also has the sense of “mature” in some passages in Paul.
 
D

DJCATAZ

Guest
#36
#36
JDecree said:
HeRoseFromTheDead:
DJCATAZ:

I have no way of confirming either the tense of the verb or whether 1 John was written to combat gnosticism unfortunately. I cant understand the Strong's half the time...I see according to this: 1 John 1:8 Greek Text Analysis the "morphology" says it is in the present tense, but the strongs doesnt seem to confirm(or deny?) that. I am quite ignorant about these things.
Click to expand...
Let me see if I can give some confirming support to help you out.

ἔχομεν VIPA--1P (V=Verb, I=Indicative, P=Present, A=Active)Friberg, Timothy, Barbara Friberg, and Neva F. Miller. Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament. Baker’s Greek New Testament Library. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 2000.


[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD="align: center"][SUP]8 [/SUP][/TD]
[TD="align: center"][SUP]s[/SUP][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]If[/TD]
[TD="align: center"] [/TD]
[TD="align: center"]we[/TD]
[TD="align: center"] [/TD]
[TD="align: center"]say[/TD]
[TD="align: center"] [/TD]
[TD="align: center"]•[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]we[/TD]
[TD="align: center"] [/TD]
[TD="align: center"]have[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]ἐὰν[SUB]1[/SUB][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]→[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]εἴπωμεν[SUB]2[/SUB][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]ὅτι[SUB]3[/SUB][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]→[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]ἔχομεν[SUB]6[/SUB][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]ἐάν[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: center"] [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]εἶπον[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]ὅτι[/TD]
[TD="align: center"] [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]ἔχω[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]CAC[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: center"] [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]VAAS1P[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]CSC[/TD]
[TD="align: center"] [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]VPAI1P[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1437[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: center"] [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]2036[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]3754[/TD]
[TD="align: center"] [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]2192[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]89.67[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: center"] [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]33.69[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]90.21[/TD]
[TD="align: center"] [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]57.1[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2001). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.




You won't find anyone who denies this is in the present tense. It's just a fact of the grammar. Just like in English if I were to say "I have" or "we have". That is a present tense. It's not "I had" or "I will have" that would be past tense and future tense.
 
D

DJCATAZ

Guest
#37
#37
Let me continue with a few more references:

1:8 have no sin. See note on 3:9–10. we deceive ourselves. The devil (3:8) or the world (2:15) may contribute to human straying, but in the end each individual bears responsibility for his or her own sin. Some sin remains in every Christian’s life ("have," present tense), even that of the elderly apostle John ("we").
Crossway Bibles. The ESV Study Bible. Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2008.


The WBC discusses Gnosticism and 1 John
"Gnosticizing tendencies in the early Church were derived from a dualist view of existence."
Smalley, Stephen S. 1, 2, 3 John. Vol. 51. Word Biblical Commentary. Dallas: Word, Incorporated, 1989.

The Hermaneia Commentary on 1 John again discusses Gnosticism and 1 John"2 John, which is occasionally cited alongside 1 John, was evidently better known. This may be explained by its direct opposition to false teachers, which was useful in the church’s concrete confrontations with gnostic groups."

"...would seem to suggest that the Johannine system presupposes a gnostic background..."
Strecker, Georg, and Harold W. Attridge. The Johannine Letters: a Commentary on 1, 2, and 3 John. Hermeneia—a Critical and Historical Commentary on the Bible. Minneapolis, MN: Fortress Press, 1996.

Just one more from the NAC that discusses Gnosticism and 1 John"It would be a mistake to think that these systems were as fully developed as the detailed systems of Basilides and Valentinus in the second century, but it would be just as great a mistake to discount the (proto-) Gnostic tendencies that John seems to be combating."
Akin, Daniel L. 1, 2, 3 John. Vol. 38. The New American Commentary. Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers, 2001.
 
J

JDecree

Guest
#38
#38
Thanks guys sorry I didnt respond today, I have been busy. Hopefully tomorrow.
 
Bookends

Bookends

Senior Member
#39
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
#39
Proverbs 24
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For a righteous man may fall seven times
And rise again,
But the wicked shall fall by calamity.
 
nl

nl

Senior Member
#40
Jun 26, 2011
933
22
18
#40
Jesus said it; I believe it; that settles it:

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (Matthew 5:48)

The destiny of the genuine Christian is to be conformed to the image of God's Son, Jesus Christ, who practiced what He preached.
 
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