Heresy on Christianchat

tdrew777 · Mar 4, 2013

I haven't been on here a month, and I've learned quite a bit about confronting heresy. After jumping into one heretical thread in an inappropriate way, I asked someone with a lot of reputation what the Christianchat guidelines are on responding to heresy and was told, basically, that there are none. Still, I could do better as an individual and we could do better as a team. I have a three or four things I've learned and want to share them one by one as others chime in with comments and things that they have learned - that is the original thread idea, anyway. We can come up with our own guidelines on how to deal with heresy on Chritsianchat. First idea: (especially when posts are coming in hot and heavy), we need to get a complete idea in every post. If you are jabbing away at bad ideas that have been posted and other posts come in while you are writing, some of us will understand what you mean and most of us will not. Those who take their time and write out heresy come across as more reasonable than those who stand up for what is right, but you need to go back a page or two to get the whole idea. If someone reads your post and nothing else, they should see 1. the heresy 2. your polite rebuttal.

mark54 · Mar 4, 2013

tdrew777 said:

In my experiance, those who call others heretics, are usually the most 'heretical' people themselves according to what that term is supposed to mean. (not referring to you in that, just responding according to my observations on internet websites)
However, I have never called anyone a heretic myself, I leave that to the h......s

BTW
Never heard the term used in any church I have ever been to, either by the minister or any of the congregation

nathan3 · Mar 4, 2013

The popes and catholic church back in the middle ages use to throw that word "Heresy" at Christians, who wanted to read their Bibles and worship in freedom, as they choose to according to their reading of the scriptures, Christians that wanted a deeper understanding of God's word then what was spoon fed them by they power hungry church of that day.

The church during the middle ages did not like that, and put thousands upon thousand of Christians, to death, for little more , then wanting to read the Bible. Often the church would impose the most horrible tortures to any Christian, for even hearing the Word of God being spoken or tough by any other, then the pope and its teachers.( that was in the "dark ages" ) So I, never use that word...

What I have noticed about the people that use the Word Heretic, they often make up people who, have little to no understanding of the scripture themselves; even calling scriptures they never heard of, a heresy . I notice they often lord over other Christians and their beliefs , even though they are lacking understanding themselves. So when something is hard for them, rather then try to understand it, they yell heresy or heretic or even, blasphemy ...Now I'm convinced no one knows what that word means.

nathan3 · Mar 4, 2013

In a world of confused peoples , Let's read the Bible, and let the Truth in the God's Words give us real discernment . Then with that work into the scriptures, we can see & hear what trees are producing the good fruit; and which trees are producing bad fruit, so bad: it cannot be eaten. God's Word, gives that discernment.

Tintin · Mar 4, 2013

Yes, the Bible needs to be studied and discussed and wrestled with and prayed over. Answers don't always come easy. But God's Truth is Absolute.

PS · Mar 4, 2013

tdrew777 said:

I understand what you mean in bold, and I believe it is possible to be clear and concise in a few words. If you have several points to make, then I suggest they are made one by one in subsequent posts.

I say this because firstly it can get very complicated and secondly people don't bother to read long posts or if they do they brush them on one side and all your very good points have been lost in one fell swoop, often without any rebuttal or discussion.

Lastly I have discoverd that some people are so set in their beliefs there is no likelihood they will ever change, and I am beginning to think that if their posts are damaging to Christianity then I think the question must be asked if they should be allowed to continue to post?

Just my thoughts. Normally my posts are a lot shorter and I have broken my own rule of one point at a time.

Skinski7 · Mar 4, 2013

mark54 said:

This is because generally false doctrine and false teachers are not refuted in the Church System.

Have you ever heard a pastor quote this and elaborate on it?

Act 20:25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.
Act 20:26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
Act 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Act 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Have you ever seen a pastor warning his flock everyday with tears about the wolves who appear as lambs?

The truth is people don't take deception seriously. They look at the Mormon's, Jehovah's Witnesses, Atheists, Moonies, Scientology etc. as the deceived one's. Few people seriously consider the warning of Paul.

The wolves are in the pulpits today and they "appear" as "Ministers of Righteousness."

2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Transform - G3345 - metaschēmatizō
From G3326 and a derivative of G4976; to transfigure or disguise; figuratively to apply (by accommodation): - transfer, transform (self).

Right after Jesus taught that "strait is the gate and narrow is the way and that FEW will find it" Jesus warned about the wolves who would come, MULTITUDES of them.

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Jesus taught that MANY would come in His (Jesus) name and say that He was the Christ and would deceive MANY.

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Not deceive a few, deceive many. A multitude.

Jesus even taught how to identify them...

Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Jesus taught you will know them by what they produce. They produce converts. What is the fruit within the Church System today? I see SIN SIN SIN. I see professing Christian's who argue in favour of perpetually sinning till death every single day. Professing Christian's who STILL WORK INIQUITY.

Jesus went on to say...

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Not a FEW but MANY. MANY MANY MANY. A multitude of people.

If one is to preach today that one MUST depart from iniquity one will be refuted with all manner of excuses. "you are saving yourself," "you are self-righteous," "you are saying we don't need Jesus," "it's not of works," "faith alone," "1Joh 1:8 teaches we cannot stop sinning," "Romans 7:14-28 teaches we will always be doing wrong," "Paul was the chief of sinners." All defending an ongoing state of sinfulness, all defending an ongoing state of working iniquity.

In Revelation chapters 2 and 3 there are seven churches listed. FIVE out of SEVEN had already been corrupted back then. That is MOST of the Churches John was writing to.

What is it today?

Don't be deceived folks. Paul warned abut what would happen...

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

In order to not be deceived one must LOVE the truth. If one is complacent about the truth they WILL BE DECEIVED. God Himself sends STRONG DELUSION.

Ariel82 · Mar 4, 2013

1. I found that asking short precise questions that allow the person to clarify their meaning is best. Before you even think to rebuke or respond to a statement you must first truly understand the other person's stance.

That way they can not later tell you that they misrepresented what they think or say.

I also found that you will learn some posters just phrase it in an unusual way that is confusing but not meant in the way some people take it.

For example one poster posted "Adam and Eve are Gods"

on could assume they were are a heretic teaching mini-gods doctrine or ask clarification and learn they just forgot the ' and meant to type "God's"

2. the goal of any response should be to show God's truth.
not to get other's to agree that you are right because often they won't.
but if you plant that seed of truth perhaps it will undermine the stronghold of lies in their mind that keep them from the knowledge of Christ

3. keep it short, brief, truthful and polite (though I admit that sometimes i go for truthful over polite)

4. disengage when the other person starts repeating their faulty arguments

5. base your reasoning on scripture more than any outside source if possible

James 3

nathan3 · Mar 4, 2013

Ariel82 said:

1. I found that asking short precise questions that allow the person to clarify their meaning is best. Before you even think to rebuke or respond to a statement you must first truly understand the other person's stance.

That way they can not later tell you that they misrepresented what they think or say.

I also found that you will learn some posters just phrase it in an unusual way that is confusing but not meant in the way some people take it.

For example one poster posted "Adam and Eve are Gods"

on could assume they were are a heretic teaching mini-gods doctrine or ask clarification and learn they just forgot the ' and meant to type "God's"

2. the goal of any response should be to show God's truth.
not to get other's to agree that you are right because often they won't.
but if you plant that seed of truth perhaps it will undermine the stronghold of lies in their mind that keep them from the knowledge of Christ

3. keep it short, brief, truthful and polite (though I admit that sometimes i go for truthful over polite)

4. disengage when the other person starts repeating their faulty arguments

5. base your reasoning on scripture more than any outside source if possible

James 3

Knowing we disagree even, I'm sure at some point we did, and will in the future. I'll agree here with a lot of what you wrote. But i wont call people a heretic . Confused, maybe.

Skinski7 · Mar 4, 2013

Paul wrote this to the Romans...

Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
Rom 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
Rom 16:19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.

Jude warned that...

Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

These deceivers attack the grace message and turn it into a license to sin. So when Paul teaches this...

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

They deny it and twist scriptures like this...

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

...to prove that a Christian exists in an ongoing state of sinfulness and that those who deny it are liars.

When...

1Joh 1:8-10 is actually in the context of this...

1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

So John continues with an explanation of HOW to walk in the light.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

A Parallel verse in the Old Testament is this...

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

A parallel from the teachings of Jesus is this...

Luk 15:11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:
Luk 15:12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
Luk 15:13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
Luk 15:14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.
Luk 15:15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
Luk 15:16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.
Luk 15:17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
Luk 15:18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
Luk 15:19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
Luk 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
Luk 15:21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
Luk 15:22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
Luk 15:23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

If 1Joh 1:8-9 was a verse contending for an ongoing state of sinfulness in the life of a Christian then John would not have made the following statements...

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

zone · Mar 4, 2013

heresy
"an opinion of private men different from that of the catholick and orthodox church" [Johnson], early 13c., from O.Fr. heresie, from L. hæresis, "school of thought, philosophical sect," used by Christian writers for "unorthodox sect or doctrine," from Gk. hairesis "a taking or choosing," from haireisthai "take, seize," middle voice of hairein "to choose," of unknown origin. The Greek word was used in N.T. in ref. to the Sadducees, Pharisees, and even the Christians, as sects of Judaism, but in English bibles it is usually translated sect. Meaning "religious belief opposed to the orthodox doctrines of the Church" evolved in L.L. in the Dark Ages.

Heresy | Define Heresy at Dictionary.com < click

zone · Mar 4, 2013

Titus 3:10
A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject.

αιρετικον adjective - accusative singular masculine
hairetikos hahee-ret-ee-kos': a schismatic -- heretic (the Greek word itself).

tdrew777 · Mar 4, 2013

mark54 said:

My second point:
Always respect the person and criticize the idea.
When we use inflammatory language, people who are slow to understand our theologically solid ideas will quickly understand our inflammatory language and will be emotionally drawn towards defending the side of the heresy.

Often, we are called not to convince the person posting heresy, but to warn the audience. Fight so as to win.

Many early reformers who were greatly used of God espoused heretical doctrines. Branding them publicly as heretics serves no purpose. Attack the ideas, not the people.

Cobus · Mar 4, 2013

This is the thing... the people that were the ones that lead the nation when Jesus came, even they had Jesus labled in the power of Biliam. Jesus came with the Truth, as GOD WITH US (Immanual) yet they killed Him, as they ALWAYS did with the Prophets as well....

My question is this... If there is more FALSE TEACHERS as TRUTH Teachers (guarenteed by God in the Bible) who is going to win the VOTE to VOTE a "HERITIC" OFF?

Wh owill most likely be CALLED a HERITIC here on CC the Truth teachers or the false teachers? For one to DISCERN a heritic should one not be IN TRUTH to achieve this... God said PUT ALL SPIRITS TO THE TEST... Well a test has a standard, and what did God say the STANDARD is.... Christ Jesus is the STANDARD a person should SURPASS or at least be equal too...

I ALWAYS judge a person that says... I AM GOD'S CHILD to the PERFECT JESUS. If he falls short, he is NOT OF GOD! And God warns about this, even to little children, NOT TO BE DECIEVED....

So here are the EASY part...... God said if a person (spirit) does not confess that Jesus has come in the flesh then that person is not of God! But God gives us very definate CHARACTOR identities for one to CONFESS this... He says....LITTLE children, let no man decieve you; he that doth righteousness is righteous, even as HE is righteous.

So! If you claim Jesus has come in your flesh, you BETTER not try to DECIEVE the Little children with UNRIGHTEOUSNESS IN YOU!...

Now I suppose I might be called a "heritic" for BELIEVING THIS! (1 John 3 and 1 John 4)

nathan3 · Mar 4, 2013

Well , I have noticed that Cobus. If the """" Confused """ out number those people who have: "ears to hear and eyes to see", then the ones going to be marked a "heretic" ; most often will be those spreading real truth...

I rather learn from the Bible and let the Bible correct people.. But some times people don't care about that either . I have heard people call the Bible heresy, Christians say that. and it didn't matter even if it was written. it was just ignored . But it's not my job to make people believe like I do.

peacefulbeliever · Mar 4, 2013

Just a little side note. . . Paul was accused of heresy. . .

[Acts 23:6-8] But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question. And when he had so said, there arose a dissension between the Pharisees and Sadducees: and the multitude was divided. For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both. For we have found this man a pestilent fellow and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world and a ringleader of the Nazarenes:. . . . .[24:10-15] Then Paul, after that the governor had beckoned unto him to speak, answered, Forasmuch as I know that thou hast been of many years a judge unto this nation, I do the more cheerfully answer for myself: Because that thou mayest understand, that there are yet but twelve days since I went up to Jerusalem for to worship. And they neither found me in the temple disputing with any man, neither raising up the people, neither in the synagogues, nor in the city: Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me. But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believeing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead both of the just and the unjust. . . .Touching the resurrection of the dead I am called in question by you this day.

He was accused of heresy for teaching the resurrection of the dead by the Sadducees because they did not believe in the resurrection.

That is why they were Sad - u - see . . . .

Okay, pretty lame!

Ariel82 · Mar 4, 2013

wow.... just to clear something up.. cc is not run by voting people off like some reality tv show.

Its run by a pastor who believes in the Bible and uses his God given discernment along with two other men to monitor and give people around the world a safer place to communicate and talk with other people who claim the name of Christ. (the forum part, the live chat has more moderators)

they do not pretend to know who is saved and who is not.

they monitor more for sex offenders and trolls who would take advantage of the children of God than for infighting and bickering. Also those who spam and try to get money from members or sell something.

If people get banned its more often for their behavior than for their doctrinal beliefs.

no matter what they decide every day, someone will be unhappy either the person they banned and that person's friends or the person who believes they should have been banned but were not.

I don't know why so many people expect so much from the adminstrators and moderators of a site that most don't contribute any money at all to help maintain. All the mods are volunteers and are NOT paid for their service of policing this site.

So instead of complaining I think a more people should be praying for them and thanking them when they run across one.

nathan3 · Mar 4, 2013

Ariel82 said:

wow.... just to clear something up.. cc is not run by voting people off like some reality tv show.

Its run by a pastor who believes in the Bible and uses his God given discernment along with two other men to monitor and give people around the world a safer place to communicate and talk with other people who claim the name of Christ. (the forum part, the live chat has more moderators)

they do not pretend to know who is saved and who is not.

they monitor more for sex offenders and trolls who would take advantage of the children of God than for infighting and bickering. Also those who spam and try to get money from members or sell something.

If people get banned its more often for their behavior than for their doctrinal beliefs.

no matter what they decide every day, someone will be unhappy either the person they banned and that person's friends or the person who believes they should have been banned but were not.

I don't know why so many people expect so much from the adminstrators and moderators of a site that most don't contribute any money at all to help maintain. All the mods are volunteers and are NOT paid for their service of policing this site.

So instead of complaining I think a more people should be praying for them and thanking them when they run across one.

This doesn't go for just cc, but for everyone we meet in everyday life... And I'll leave that there for now.

zone · Mar 4, 2013

Cobus said:

i would normally ask 'are you serious'?
but in this case, i know you are.

this is what you have actually said, in case you don't know:

Ariel82 · Mar 4, 2013

zone said:

no he said OF God, because if he said they were not God it would be a true statement.

however, he instead says no child of God can fall short of perfection. thus allowing him to justify that if he finds one sin in another person he can disregard anything they say because they are not "of God"

you can't replace what he says with what makes sense.

you have to address the misconceptions as they are presented not as would be logical.

Heresy on Christianchat

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