Holiness Is Not Legalism

[UnderGrace]

So you disagree with Dietrich Bonhoeffer then? He actually coined the term in his book "The Cost of Discipleship" which was published in the 1930's, I believe, as Hitler was coming to power in the same Germany.

You know, the Bonhoeffer who stood against the Nazis, defied Hitler, was in the underground and tried to unsucessfully assasinate Hitler, and finally was smuggled out of the country to England, but insisted upon returning to Germany to be with his "people." The Bonhoeffer whom Hitler had executed 2 weeks before the Allies would have reached his prison and freed him? You know, that Bonhoeffer??

You know, the pastor who believed that discipleship was something that every page of the Bible speaks too, and anything else, is just "cheap" grace! I'm pretty sure he believed in holiness, seeing it is ALL over the Bible, along with words like "obedience."

Not of works that any one should boast!

Twisted grace coupled with twisted understanding of holiness is crippling a major part of the church today! Holiness is not, never have been or will be "works!" So sad!

PS. Do read "the Cost of Discipleship!" It is foundational reading!

It was one of the first books I read when I became a believer. I actually have read several of his books. He definitely was a brilliant man and I respect the stand he took against Hitler. Yet his book Cost of Discipleship only gave me in a place of uncertainty in my eternal salvation and feeling like I was not doing enough which was a step backwards.

I rather to believe in priceless grace.

These are his words and I strongly disagree....it is not following Christ that justifies us.


[FONT=&quot]"The only man who has the right to say that he is justified by grace alone is the man who has left all to follow Christ."[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-Dietrich Bonhoeffer




[/FONT]

 

[UnderGrace]

I regard him as a liberal theologian.

He had questioned most all the basic tenets of Christianity.

In his book Christ the Centre He denied the sinlessness of Christ’s human nature and further questioned the sinlessness of His earthly behavior. (Christ the Center, pp. 108-109)
I might also add that Dietrich Bonhoeffer questioned the resurrection.

“It looks as though our faith in the resurrection were bound up with the news of the empty tomb. Is our faith then ultimately only faith in the empty tomb? This is and remains a final stumbling bloc, which the believer in Christ must learn to live with in one way or another. Empty or not empty, it remains a stumbling block. We cannot be sure of it’s historicity.” (Earlier, on the same page, he states: “Even the resurrection is ambiguous”.)

Testimony to Freedom, pp. 55-56



There is much more than this, he also did not believe that Christ was the only way to God in his book Testimony to Freedom he discusses this as well.

So you disagree with Dietrich Bonhoeffer then? He actually coined the term in his book "The Cost of Discipleship" which was published in the 1930's, I believe, as Hitler was coming to power in the same Germany.

You know, the Bonhoeffer who stood against the Nazis, defied Hitler, was in the underground and tried to unsucessfully assasinate Hitler, and finally was smuggled out of the country to England, but insisted upon returning to Germany to be with his "people." The Bonhoeffer whom Hitler had executed 2 weeks before the Allies would have reached his prison and freed him? You know, that Bonhoeffer??

You know, the pastor who believed that discipleship was something that every page of the Bible speaks too, and anything else, is just "cheap" grace! I'm pretty sure he believed in holiness, seeing it is ALL over the Bible, along with words like "obedience."

Not of works that any one should boast!

Twisted grace coupled with twisted understanding of holiness is crippling a major part of the church today! Holiness is not, never have been or will be "works!" So sad!

PS. Do read "the Cost of Discipleship!" It is foundational reading!

 

[Cee]

It becomes works when we are trying to accomplish something independent of the work of Christ. BUT when we agree with the work of Christ and we come into obedience of it, it is sanctification. That's why identity in Christ is taught easily over 100x in Scripture. Behavior comes in under identity. We get our identity from Christ work. We get our behavior from relationship with Holy Spirit, but this is available because of Christ work.

We are a holy people. So we do holy things. If we do not do holy things, it is not because we believe we are holy, but because we believe we are NOT holy. Furthermore, understanding what holiness is another issue, "set apart for the work of God". Okay so that's a VERY generic statement. What is the work of God? Is it to go to church? Is it to read my Bible? Do these things make me holy? Understanding what makes us holy is understanding who God is. Because He alone is holy. Our holiness comes from our union with Him. We know this because HOLY SPIRIT abides with us. And He IS Holy.

Who is God? God is love? What does it mean to remain unspotted from the world? Sure we don't do "unholy things" but what is an unholy thing? Who sets the barometer? I believe God does and He says that we must love one another. Holiness is loving God and loving one another.

James 1:19Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger; 20for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God. 21Therefore put away all filthiness and rampant wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.

Notice that James says "filthiness and rampant wickedness" is contrary to the anger of man. The idea here is that not loving one another is "filthiness and wickedness". James will address this again later.

25But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing.

Notice here that the perfect law of liberty (identity) tells us our freedom, and our freedom allows us to love one another. Allows us to be a tool in the hands of God.

26If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person’s religion is worthless.

Notice here, you think you are religious? But your tongue lashes out in anger against your brother? You deceive your heart! Your religion is worthless.

27Religion that is pure and undefiled before God the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

Notice purity with God is visiting those who are "unloved" and who are "helpless to take care of themselves". And to keep oneself unstained from the world. Now if you don't read this in context you can make "unstained" say a lot of things, but if you keep it in context it is saying loving one another, bridling your tongue for one another, and being steadfast in trials. What were trials? Persecution. Once again "holiness" is seen as loving one another even in the midst of persecution.

James drives this point home even further...

James 2:8If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.

Please notice what James is saying is "pure religion" and "remaining unspotted" it is loving one another. If you don't do this you are committing sin and are convicted as a transgressor!

12So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. 13For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

The law of liberty allows us to love one another. If we do not have mercy for each other, why would He have mercy on us? (v13)

AND HERE is the big Scripture debate...

14What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good[SUP]b[/SUP] is that? 17So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

James is once again saying, you say you have faith in God, but you do not have works of mercy toward one another? What good is that???

This is true holiness and how we remain unspotted from the world.

John sums it up nicely:

1 John 4:20 If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.

Holiness is being like God. God is love. Being set apart for His work is loving one another. The idea is that we are in relationship with God. And we are in relationship with each other. Yes, we are not sexually immoral, adulterous, etc. But if you really parse it down you can see that breaking covenant with God or with our spouse is not being built up in love.

But holiness is more than these things. Scripture says it means giving earthly goods to those who have none.

1 John 3:16By this we know what love is: Jesus laid down His life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers.

1 John 3:17 If anyone with earthly possessions sees his brother in need, but withholds his compassion from him, how can the love of God abide in him?

Holiness encompasses far more than what some people "think" makes them holy. And Scripture says if you break even one part, you broken it all. Now let's also compound this into the idea that if you're trying to be holy to make yourself righteous before the Lord, now you are self-righteous. If you are loving people and God because you yourselves have been loved and forgiven now what you are doing is out of a place of fruit not works. There is a stumbling block here. And religion is not the solution to it.

 

[UnderGrace]

Do you think this commitment and work is done by and through the grace of God or in our own self-effort?

Holiness

In the highest sense belongs to God (Isa 6:3; Rev 15:4), and to Christians as consecrated to God's service, and in so far as they are conformed in all things to the will of God (Rom 6:19, 22; Eph 1:4; Tit 1:8; 1Pe 1:15). Personal holiness is a work of gradual development. It is carried on under many hindrances, hence the frequent admonitions to watchfulness, prayer, and perseverance (1Co 1:30; 2Co 7:1; Eph 4:23, 24). (See SANCTIFICATION.)
Illustrated Bible Dictionary: And Treasury of Biblical History, Biography, Geography, Doctrine, and Literature.

I. The Meaning of Sanctification

Two thoughts are prominent in this definition: separation from evil, and dedication unto God and His service.
1. Separation From Evil

2 Chron. 29:5, 15-18—"Sanctify now yourselves, and sanctify the house of the Lord God . . . . and carry forth the filthiness out of the holy places. . . . And the priests went into the inner part of the house of the Lord, to cleanse it, and brought out all the uncleanness. . . .Then they went in to Hezekiah the king, and said, We have cleansed all the house of the Lord." 1 Thess. 4:3—"For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication." See also Heb. 9:3; Exod. 19:20-22; Lev. 11:44.
It is evident from these scriptures that sanctification has to do with the turning away from all that is sinful and that is defiling to both soul and body.
2. Separation or Dedication Unto God

In this sense whatever is set apart from a profane to a sacred use, whatever is devoted exclusively to the service of God, is sanctified. So it follows that a man may "sanctify his house to be holy unto the Lord," or he may "sanctify unto the Lord some part of a field of his possession" (Lev. 27:14, 16). So also the first-born of all the children were sanctified unto the Lord (Num. 8:17). Even the Son of God Himself, in so far as He was set apart by the Father and sent into the world to do God's will, was sanctified (John 10:36). Whenever a thing or person is separated from the common relations of life in order to be devoted to the sacred, such is said to be sanctified.
The Great Doctrines of the Bible.

(2) Ethical Holiness
But, in the next place, holiness of character in the distinct ethical sense is ascribed to God. The injunction, "Be ye holy; for I am holy" (Leviticus 11:44; Leviticus 19:2), plainly implies an ethical conception. Men cannot resemble God in His incommunicable attributes. They can reflect His likeness only along the lines of those moral qualities of righteousness and love in which true holiness consists. In the Psalmists and Prophets the Divine holiness becomes, above all, an ethical reality convicting men of sin (Isaiah 6:3, 1) and demanding of those who would stand in His presence clean hands and a pure heart (Psalm 24:3f).
The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia.

4. Applied to Christians:
But it is especially in its application to Christians that the idea of holiness meets us in the New Testament in a sense that is characteristic and distinctive. Christ's people are regularly called "saints" or holy persons, and holiness in the high ethical and spiritual meaning of the word is used to denote the appropriate quality of their life and conduct.
(1) As Separate from the World
No doubt, as applied to believers, "saints" conveys in the first place the notion of a separation from the world and a consecration to God. Just as Israel under the old covenant was a chosen race, so the Christian church in succeeding to Israel's privileges becomes a holy nation (1 Peter 2:9), and the Christian individual, as one of the elect people, becomes a holy man or woman (Col. 3:12). In Paul's usage all baptized persons are "saints," however far they may still be from the saintly character (compare 1 Cor. 1:2, 14 with 5:1ff).
(2) As Bound to the Pursuit of an Ethical Ideal
But though the use of the name does not imply high ethical character as a realized fact, it always assumes it as an ideal and an obligation. It is taken for granted that the Holy Spirit has taken up His abode in the heart of every regenerate person, and that a work of positive sanctification is going on there. The New Testament leaves no room for the thought of a holiness divorced from those moral qualities which the holy God demands of those whom He has called to be His people.
» See: SANCTIFICATION
The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia.

Holiness in Man. We may note: (1) In many cases the holiness ascribed to men in the Scriptures is simply ceremonial and formal. They are persons “separated,” “set apart,” or dedicated to holy services. They were expected or required along with this outward dedication, however, to lead holy lives and to be inwardly dedicated, a requirement frequently overlooked. Thus the priests and the Levites are spoken of in the OT as “holy.” (2) The holiness predicated or required of men, upon which the Scriptures everywhere lay almost exclusive stress, is that of character and conduct. (3) Man appears before us in the Scriptures as a fallen being, by nature unholy and sinful. Created in the image of God, he has lost one of the most essential features of that image—holiness. (4) Holiness, so far as it appears in man, is an outcome of God’s gracious work in salvation and yet not without the proper exertion of one’s own free will and the putting forth of strenuous effort (Ephes. 4:22-24). (5) Exalted attainments in holiness are possible for men and often realized in this life (Luke 1:75; 2 Cor. 7:1; 1 Thes. 3:13). (6) The whole tone of Scripture accords with the weighty exhortation “Pursue peace with all men and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord” (Hebrews 12:14). (6) The NT teaches that the believer was sanctified positionally when he was saved by virtue of his being presented “in Christ” (1 Cor. 1:2, 30), that he is being sanctified experientially as he reckons upon his position in Christ (Romans 6:11), and that he will be ultimately sanctified in the sense of full conformity to Christ in glorification (Romans 8:30).
The New Unger's Bible Dictionary.

Since much of this is found on the internet, WHY do we have so many personal ideas that don't even come close to true?

BTW, holiness requires commitment, & commitment requires works.

 

[PennEd]

I don't understand why we have to read outside opinions like Bonhoeffer. I have dear friends who talk constantly about Calvinism vs. Arminianism. In many ways I'm glad I haven't been classicly educated in this stuff. I think the Bible can speak for itself. The dueling posts about Bonhoeffer being beyond reproach vs. His doubts about basic Foundational belief in the resurrection is a perfect example of why we should just be good Bereans.

Peace, love and Grace to you brothers and sisters in Christ!

 

[JaumeJ]

Amen. We are here to discuss the Word of God, not the opinions on it of flesh. We are present to discuss what we uinderstand while all those writings from the past may as well b e written in stone for there isno way to discuss with the writers. Besides, since the Word has been kept together in its wonderment since God first told His Prophets what to write, there should be no writing added to it nor taken away........

I don't understand why we have to read outside opinions like Bonhoeffer. I have dear friends who talk constantly about Calvinism vs. Arminianism. In many ways I'm glad I haven't been classicly educated in this stuff. I think the Bible can speak for itself. The dueling posts about Bonhoeffer being beyond reproach vs. His doubts about basic Foundational belief in the resurrection is a perfect example of why we should just be good Bereans.

Peace, love and Grace to you brothers and sisters in Christ!

 

[UnderGrace]

So true .... all they did was mess me up and confuse me. I have a new way now it is this......keep it simple.

I don't understand why we have to read outside opinions like Bonhoeffer. I have dear friends who talk constantly about Calvinism vs. Arminianism. In many ways I'm glad I haven't been classicly educated in this stuff. I think the Bible can speak for itself. The dueling posts about Bonhoeffer being beyond reproach vs. His doubts about basic Foundational belief in the resurrection is a perfect example of why we should just be good Bereans.

Peace, love and Grace to you brothers and sisters in Christ!

 

[FreeNChrist]

The biggest problem facing the church today is not cheap grace but “cheap law"....the idea that God accepts anything less than the perfect righteousness of Jesus.

 

[disciplemike]

The law is not of faith.
but does that mean we should break the law?
God forbid.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The biggest problem facing the church today is not cheap grace but “cheap law"....the idea that God accepts anything less than the perfect righteousness of Jesus.

Well said. This teaching of keeping slivers of the law demonstrates having no understanding of what is required when one puts themselves under it. You either keep all of it perfectly or if you fail at just one part, you fail the whole thing

 

[FreeNChrist]

The law is not of faith.
but does that mean we should break the law?
God forbid.

God forbid is right. How anyone could put faith in Jesus Christ and breaking the Law in the same thought is beyond me. But hey, there it is.

 

[PennEd]

The biggest problem facing the church today is not cheap grace but “cheap law"....the idea that God accepts anything less than the perfect righteousness of Jesus.

Boom! There it is!


Just copy and paste this response whenever these "we gotta do the law" type threads start.

 

[disciplemike]

we still are not understanding "faith".

I can have "faith" in the promise that God made to Abraham - that through his Seed, all the nations would be blessed.

the law is not of "faith".

Scripture says, a law that was added 430 years later CANNOT DISANUL THE PROMISE.
God is not a promise-breaker, like we are. Read slowly. Eternal salvation is not by merit for keeping the law. Such a promise was never offered to have "faith" in.

If there was a law that could produce complete righteousness, then Messiah died in vain.


Does that mean we should break the law that grace may abound? God forbid.

 

[Grandpa]

So you disagree with Dietrich Bonhoeffer then? He actually coined the term in his book "The Cost of Discipleship" which was published in the 1930's, I believe, as Hitler was coming to power in the same Germany.

You know, the Bonhoeffer who stood against the Nazis, defied Hitler, was in the underground and tried to unsucessfully assasinate Hitler, and finally was smuggled out of the country to England, but insisted upon returning to Germany to be with his "people." The Bonhoeffer whom Hitler had executed 2 weeks before the Allies would have reached his prison and freed him? You know, that Bonhoeffer??

You know, the pastor who believed that discipleship was something that every page of the Bible speaks too, and anything else, is just "cheap" grace! I'm pretty sure he believed in holiness, seeing it is ALL over the Bible, along with words like "obedience."

Not of works that any one should boast!

Twisted grace coupled with twisted understanding of holiness is crippling a major part of the church today! Holiness is not, never have been or will be "works!" So sad!

PS. Do read "the Cost of Discipleship!" It is foundational reading!

How does a Disciple of Christ attempt to assassinate someone?

I would say maybe he lacked some foundational understanding.

Would you agree or disagree?

 

[valiant]

The law is not of faith.
but does that mean we should break the law?
God forbid.

To speak about 'breaking the Law' shows that we have it in an improper place. We are living by the law.

What we should be doing is seeking to please Him, and we can use the law as one of may mirrors we look into.

 

[valiant]

How does a Disciple of Christ attempt to assassinate someone?

I would say maybe he lacked some foundational understanding.

Would you agree or disagree?

Actually I would disagree. It would be an act of war which would be justified. There are times when killing is legal where it is not for personal gain. i.e. Killing to prevent wholesale killing

 

[Grandpa]

we still are not understanding "faith".

I can have "faith" in the promise that God made to Abraham - that through his Seed, all the nations would be blessed.

the law is not of "faith".

Scripture says, a law that was added 430 years later CANNOT DISANUL THE PROMISE.
God is not a promise-breaker, like we are. Read slowly. Eternal salvation is not by merit for keeping the law. Such a promise was never offered to have "faith" in.

If there was a law that could produce complete righteousness, then Messiah died in vain.


Does that mean we should break the law that grace may abound? God forbid.

Proverbs 14:12 [FONT=&quot]There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

[/FONT]What is that way that seems right?

Romans 9:31-33
[FONT=&quot]31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


Is working at the law according to the way you understand it the right way? Should you trust the "rabbi" who has a better understanding of the law than you do?


Galatians 3:23-25
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.


Why are we no longer under a schoolmaster after we have come to Christ? Does it mean we are free to break the law???



[/FONT]

 

[Grace777x70]

The biggest problem facing the church today is not cheap grace but “cheap law"....the idea that God accepts anything less than the perfect righteousness of Jesus.

I agree...

Matthew 5:17-20 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

[SUP]18 [/SUP] "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

[SUP]19 [/SUP] "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

[SUP]20 [/SUP] "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus is saying in Matt. 5:17-20 that it is imperative that the standard of the law remains!

Because if that standard is not left for those who do not believe in Christ - people will not realize their inability to actually "do the Law".

The Law must be there in it's full strength and meaning otherwise no one will realize their need for the grace of God.

Jesus paid all of our debts in full. He fulfilled the Law. He met the requirements of the Law. Romans 8:4

 

[Grandpa]

Actually I would disagree. It would be an act of war which would be justified. There are times when killing is legal where it is not for personal gain. i.e. Killing to prevent wholesale killing

I am not speaking about a soldier in a war.

I am speaking about a private citizen, who is a disciple of Christ, planning and attempting to execute an assassination.


So if I am understanding your point of view it is that if a leader is doing something that would cause harm and death to its citizens it is ok for the disciple of Christ to plan and execute an assassination?


I disagree with that point of view. I know it seems right to us, to protect, and it is my hearts desire, but I don't think it is the Christian Way.

 

[kaylagrl]

I am not speaking about a soldier in a war.

I am speaking about a private citizen, who is a disciple of Christ, planning and attempting to execute an assassination.


So if I am understanding your point of view it is that if a leader is doing something that would cause harm and death to its citizens it is ok for the disciple of Christ to plan and execute an assassination?


I disagree with that point of view. I know it seems right to us, to protect, and it is my hearts desire, but I don't think it is the Christian Way.

We are speaking of over 6 million Jews being systematically murdered. David was a warrior and God used him greatly. When great evil like that exists, yes it is right to stop it by all means necessary. Whether a soldier or private citizen.