Holiness Is Not Legalism

[Officermayo]

I don't understand why we have to read outside opinions like Bonhoeffer. I have dear friends who talk constantly about Calvinism vs. Arminianism. In many ways I'm glad I haven't been classicly educated in this stuff. I think the Bible can speak for itself. The dueling posts about Bonhoeffer being beyond reproach vs. His doubts about basic Foundational belief in the resurrection is a perfect example of why we should just be good Bereans.

Peace, love and Grace to you brothers and sisters in Christ!

Reading outside the Bible is what gave us:

Dispensationalism
Denominations
"Left Behind"
And a myriad of other dogmas and such that are the traditions of men without any basis is scripture.

 

[Zmouth]

Actually I would disagree. It would be an act of war which would be justified. There are times when killing is legal where it is not for personal gain. i.e. Killing to prevent wholesale killing

According to your premise would the Germans be justified because they were at war?

From 1941 to 1945, Jews were systematically murdered in one of the deadliest genocides in history. Source

When you say to prevent the wholesale killing, killing of what? I have probably killed millions of fire ants so would someone be justified in killing me to save the fire ants that will undoubtedly die in the future from my continued existence.
But I don't think you were talking about fire ants so would you care to clarify your comment?

 

[JaumeJ]

Does not everyone see and learn from Jesus Christ how the law is to be regarded? He explains all. His example shows us exactly how the law is to be regarded.

No one is saved by anything but the grace of God by the Blood of HIs Holy Lamb, but this is no excuse to ignore the Teacher and what He has taught us all.

Everyone who claims grace only without responsibility of thanksgiving is not understanding Jesus ast all, let alone regarding His example.

They will say He obeyed the law perfectly yet He argued the adultresses case and wond clemency from a multitude of witnesses who wouldhave stoned her to death according to the law. Did Jesus break the la?

There are other instances of Jesus apparently breaking the law,, but He was perfect. HOw is this so?

Did He not tell the hypocrites that they , claiming to sit on the seat of Moses, overlook the important points of the law?

And what are thsese points? Faith, mercy and Justice are to be applied when using the law lawfully, and what dos this tell you?

We are free to show mercy to any and all, taking the sting out of the law, death, for whom we forgive here will be forgiven in the Kingdom. Read the Word according ot our Savior and learn of HIm as He invites all to do, for we shall be taught of God.

I know I must forgive all no matter what if I wish to have jsutice, I must show it in mercy and forgiveness in faith of God's Word, Jesus Christ.

Anhyone saved by the Lamb of god who is grateful for His gift will determine to spend his time in thanksgiven for eternal life free. This includes knowing what Jesus teaches and how to follow His example, that is being obedient to God unto death. This is by no means earning anything, it is simply living a life that demonstrates thanksgiving and praise of Jesus Christ.

If anyone thinks grace is license to deliberatley disobey God, he has never known Jesus Christ..

 

[Stephen63]

Do you think this commitment and work is done by and through the grace of God or in our own self-effort?

Holiness

In the highest sense belongs to God (Isa 6:3; Rev 15:4), and to Christians as consecrated to God's service, and in so far as they are conformed in all things to the will of God (Rom 6:19, 22; Eph 1:4; Tit 1:8; 1Pe 1:15). Personal holiness is a work of gradual development. It is carried on under many hindrances, hence the frequent admonitions to watchfulness, prayer, and perseverance (1Co 1:30; 2Co 7:1; Eph 4:23, 24). (See SANCTIFICATION.)
Illustrated Bible Dictionary: And Treasury of Biblical History, Biography, Geography, Doctrine, and Literature.

I. The Meaning of Sanctification

Two thoughts are prominent in this definition: separation from evil, and dedication unto God and His service.
1. Separation From Evil

2 Chron. 29:5, 15-18—"Sanctify now yourselves, and sanctify the house of the Lord God . . . . and carry forth the filthiness out of the holy places. . . . And the priests went into the inner part of the house of the Lord, to cleanse it, and brought out all the uncleanness. . . .Then they went in to Hezekiah the king, and said, We have cleansed all the house of the Lord." 1 Thess. 4:3—"For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication." See also Heb. 9:3; Exod. 19:20-22; Lev. 11:44.
It is evident from these scriptures that sanctification has to do with the turning away from all that is sinful and that is defiling to both soul and body.
2. Separation or Dedication Unto God

In this sense whatever is set apart from a profane to a sacred use, whatever is devoted exclusively to the service of God, is sanctified. So it follows that a man may "sanctify his house to be holy unto the Lord," or he may "sanctify unto the Lord some part of a field of his possession" (Lev. 27:14, 16). So also the first-born of all the children were sanctified unto the Lord (Num. 8:17). Even the Son of God Himself, in so far as He was set apart by the Father and sent into the world to do God's will, was sanctified (John 10:36). Whenever a thing or person is separated from the common relations of life in order to be devoted to the sacred, such is said to be sanctified.
The Great Doctrines of the Bible.

(2) Ethical Holiness
But, in the next place, holiness of character in the distinct ethical sense is ascribed to God. The injunction, "Be ye holy; for I am holy" (Leviticus 11:44; Leviticus 19:2), plainly implies an ethical conception. Men cannot resemble God in His incommunicable attributes. They can reflect His likeness only along the lines of those moral qualities of righteousness and love in which true holiness consists. In the Psalmists and Prophets the Divine holiness becomes, above all, an ethical reality convicting men of sin (Isaiah 6:3, 1) and demanding of those who would stand in His presence clean hands and a pure heart (Psalm 24:3f).
The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia.

4. Applied to Christians:
But it is especially in its application to Christians that the idea of holiness meets us in the New Testament in a sense that is characteristic and distinctive. Christ's people are regularly called "saints" or holy persons, and holiness in the high ethical and spiritual meaning of the word is used to denote the appropriate quality of their life and conduct.
(1) As Separate from the World
No doubt, as applied to believers, "saints" conveys in the first place the notion of a separation from the world and a consecration to God. Just as Israel under the old covenant was a chosen race, so the Christian church in succeeding to Israel's privileges becomes a holy nation (1 Peter 2:9), and the Christian individual, as one of the elect people, becomes a holy man or woman (Col. 3:12). In Paul's usage all baptized persons are "saints," however far they may still be from the saintly character (compare 1 Cor. 1:2, 14 with 5:1ff).
(2) As Bound to the Pursuit of an Ethical Ideal
But though the use of the name does not imply high ethical character as a realized fact, it always assumes it as an ideal and an obligation. It is taken for granted that the Holy Spirit has taken up His abode in the heart of every regenerate person, and that a work of positive sanctification is going on there. The New Testament leaves no room for the thought of a holiness divorced from those moral qualities which the holy God demands of those whom He has called to be His people.
» See: SANCTIFICATION
The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia.

Holiness in Man. We may note: (1) In many cases the holiness ascribed to men in the Scriptures is simply ceremonial and formal. They are persons “separated,” “set apart,” or dedicated to holy services. They were expected or required along with this outward dedication, however, to lead holy lives and to be inwardly dedicated, a requirement frequently overlooked. Thus the priests and the Levites are spoken of in the OT as “holy.” (2) The holiness predicated or required of men, upon which the Scriptures everywhere lay almost exclusive stress, is that of character and conduct. (3) Man appears before us in the Scriptures as a fallen being, by nature unholy and sinful. Created in the image of God, he has lost one of the most essential features of that image—holiness. (4) Holiness, so far as it appears in man, is an outcome of God’s gracious work in salvation and yet not without the proper exertion of one’s own free will and the putting forth of strenuous effort (Ephes. 4:22-24). (5) Exalted attainments in holiness are possible for men and often realized in this life (Luke 1:75; 2 Cor. 7:1; 1 Thes. 3:13). (6) The whole tone of Scripture accords with the weighty exhortation “Pursue peace with all men and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord” (Hebrews 12:14). (6) The NT teaches that the believer was sanctified positionally when he was saved by virtue of his being presented “in Christ” (1 Cor. 1:2, 30), that he is being sanctified experientially as he reckons upon his position in Christ (Romans 6:11), and that he will be ultimately sanctified in the sense of full conformity to Christ in glorification (Romans 8:30).
The New Unger's Bible Dictionary.

Since much of this is found on the internet, WHY do we have so many personal ideas that don't even come close to true?

BTW, holiness requires commitment, & commitment requires works.

.......................

I think these wel-known, authoritative, accepted by the church dictionaries carry tons more weight than Hypergrace, which they don't agree with.

So, do you think Joseph Prince knows more than them? A guy with a bachelor's degree in science?

 

[Stephen63]

I don't understand why we have to read outside opinions like Bonhoeffer. I have dear friends who talk constantly about Calvinism vs. Arminianism. In many ways I'm glad I haven't been classicly educated in this stuff. I think the Bible can speak for itself. The dueling posts about Bonhoeffer being beyond reproach vs. His doubts about basic Foundational belief in the resurrection is a perfect example of why we should just be good Bereans.

Peace, love and Grace to you brothers and sisters in Christ!

I can respect Bonhoeffer because he went back to Germany to minister when he was free to do as he pleased. Ask any of the pantywaist big names today & see if they would do anything like that. His life spoke greater than his words.

Now, I don't understand WHY you didn't mention Joseph Prince, because there's tons of dueling posts about this heretic, yet you completely overlooked him.

 

[UnderGrace]

If Bonhoeffer's words contradict the person of Christ Jesus is and His work, then his life is on par with any

person who does good but denies Christ.

So you do indeed place works above doctrine then?

I can respect Bonhoeffer because he went back to Germany to minister when he was free to do as he pleased. Ask any of the pantywaist big names today & see if they would do anything like that. His life spoke greater than his words.

Now, I don't understand WHY you didn't mention Joseph Prince, because there's tons of dueling posts about this heretic, yet you completely overlooked him.

 

[UnderGrace]

I have no quarrel with the works you cited. I have do not agree however that any work is required for salvation and holiness comes from God not from our flesh which is fallen and cannot be redeemed.

That was where I parted company. I do not know if JP preaches this or something else I have never read anything by him except what is on this discussion board and I have watched two videos by him.

But again no preaches 100% false doctrine so it is important to be able to see where his thinking departs from scripture and I believe I have questioned his teaching on God sees us without flaws on the other thread "Perfect in God's Eyes."

Check it out

.......................

I think these wel-known, authoritative, accepted by the church dictionaries carry tons more weight than Hypergrace, which they don't agree with.

So, do you think Joseph Prince knows more than them? A guy with a bachelor's degree in science?

 

[Stephen63]

If Bonhoeffer's words contradict the person of Christ Jesus is and His work, then his life is on par with any

person who does good but denies Christ.

So you do indeed place works above doctrine then?

Are you being a heretic hunter? Someone else brings up another person's writings, & immediately you go from sugar & spice to
"DOES THAT MEAN"..... I believe something evil, as if that's all I can do?

I say, "I respect the guy", and you want to turn it into a legalism 3-ring circus? IS IT OK for you to cry foul on others, then play the hypocrite, head hunting Boenhoffer, & accuse me of putting works above doctrine?

Quit being a hypocrite & get off your soapbox, please......your true colors are showing.

 

[UnderGrace]

Accuse? I believe it was a question for clarification. No worries it is all good, discussion boards seem to be place where clarity can sometimes be lacking. Sorry not my intention to accuse, I was trying to understand your point.

Are you being a heretic hunter? Someone else brings up another person's writings, & immediately you go from sugar & spice to
"DOES THAT MEAN"..... I believe something evil, as if that's all I can do?

I say, "I respect the guy", and you want to turn it into a legalism 3-ring circus? IS IT OK for you to cry foul on others, then play the hypocrite, head hunting Boenhoffer, & accuse me of putting works above doctrine?

Quit being a hypocrite & get off your soapbox, please......your true colors are showing.

 

[Stephen63]

I have no quarrel with the works you cited. I have do not agree however that any work is required for salvation and holiness comes from God not from our flesh which is fallen and cannot be redeemed.

That was where I parted company. I do not know if JP preaches this or something else I have never read anything by him except what is on this discussion board and I have watched two videos by him.

But again no preaches 100% false doctrine so it is important to be able to see where his thinking departs from scripture and I believe I have questioned his teaching on God sees us without flaws on the other thread "Perfect in God's Eyes."

Check it out

You....don't..... know? You've taken up for JP how many times, & you don't know? You've put your likes on nearly all of Grace777x70's postings about Joseph Prince, & you don't know anything about him? You've never researched Prince at all?

So..... all this stuff you've posted for months now being for Prince's doctrine..... is all unproven, unsubstanciated, & without a clue?

Maybe you can see from your last posting how I can be a little upset with that, after questioning my beliefs & accusing me of legalism. You could be totally misinformed about Prince & you're questioning my beliefs.

Go sweep around your own back porch.

 

[UnderGrace]

I do agree with Grace777x70, LadyLynn, Ben and others on grace.

I only researched Prince after he became a hot topic here.

I do agree with some of what he teaches on grace and I especially do agree with his doctrine of the new Adam and eternal security. Grace 777x70 and I part company on many other doctrines.

When I saw some parts of Prince teachings that I did not think lined up scripture from what was on the discussion board that is when I did my research and it had to do with healing and not ever having disease in a believers life and I wholeheartedly disagreed with Grace 777X70 on this.

I cannot recall calling you a legalist and if I did I am sorry, I do know that we part company on the eternal salvation of the believer since we have discussed it on other threads.

Joseph Prince really gets you going ... wow.

You....don't..... know? You've taken up for JP how many times, & you don't know? You've put your likes on nearly all of Grace777x70's postings about Joseph Prince, & you don't know anything about him? You've never researched Prince at all?

So..... all this stuff you've posted for months now being for Prince's doctrine..... is all unproven, unsubstanciated, & without a clue?

Maybe you can see from your last posting how I can be a little upset with that, after questioning my beliefs & accusing me of legalism. You could be totally misinformed about Prince & you're questioning my beliefs.

Go sweep around your own back porch.

 

[Grace777x70]

I do agree with Grace777x70, LadyLynn, Ben and others on grace.

I only researched Prince after he became a hot topic here.

I do agree with some of what he teaches on grace and I especially do agree with his doctrine of the new Adam and eternal security. Grace 777x70 and I part company on many other doctrines.

When I saw some parts of Prince teachings that I did not think lined up scripture from what was on the discussion board that is when I did my research and it had to do with healing and not ever having disease in a believers life and I wholeheartedly disagreed with Grace 777X70 on this.

I cannot recall calling you a legalist and if I did I am sorry, I do know that we part company on the eternal salvation of the believer since we have discussed it on other threads.

Joseph Prince really gets you going ... wow.

Yes, it is ok to agree to disagree on things.

Just to clarify - I have never said that Christians will not get a disease. I said that I believe that it is God's will for us to be healthy as seen by the life of Jesus while He was one this earth when He was revealing the Father to us.

It's ok if others don't see it that way. It's ok for all of us to give our opinions.

What is wrong is calling someone in the body of Christ a false teacher and a heretic because they don't see all scripture the same way "I do" -

( I know you are aware of this truth - I'm just saying it to let the others viewing know what is really driving this hatred , malice and slander to others in the body of Christ. )

Don't let these types bring us into their constant interaction with them if we can. It has a purpose and it is in the "baiting" and "insults" that they operate in.

I too don't agree with everything any preacher or teacher says. I pray I don't agree with everything I "think" I know now in 5 years. I pray to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.

No harm done..all is well!...Bless you!....

 

[UnderGrace]

Well thank you for the clarification on the disease piece and yes I remember now more clearly on we discussed this before, it would make sense that if we live our lives in Christ as we are meant to that it be a healthier lifestyle.

Thank you for the clarification.

Yes, it is ok to agree to disagree on things.

Just to clarify - I have never said that Christians will not get a disease. I said that I believe that it is God's will for us to be healthy as seen by the life of Jesus while He was one this earth when He was revealing the Father to us.

It's ok if others don't see it that way. It's ok for all of us to give our opinions.

What is wrong is calling someone in the body of Christ a false teacher and a heretic because they don't see all scripture the same way "I do" -

( I know you are aware of this truth - I'm just saying it to let the others viewing know what is really driving this hatred , malice and slander to others in the body of Christ. )

Don't let these types bring us into their constant interaction with them if we can. It has a purpose and it is in the "baiting" and "insults" that they operate in.

I too don't agree with everything any preacher or teacher says. I pray I don't agree with everything I "think" I know now in 5 years. I pray to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.

No harm done..all is well!...Bless you!....

 

[UnderGrace]

You....don't..... know? You've taken up for JP how many times, & you don't know? You've put your likes on nearly all of Grace777x70's postings about Joseph Prince, & you don't know anything about him? You've never researched Prince at all?

So..... all this stuff you've posted for months now being for Prince's doctrine..... is all unproven, unsubstanciated, & without a clue?

Maybe you can see from your last posting how I can be a little upset with that, after questioning my beliefs & accusing me of legalism. You could be totally misinformed about Prince & you're questioning my beliefs.

Go sweep around your own back porch.

Well now thank you for this!!! Much appreciated!

Since now, not only am I going to sweep my back porch, but I am also going to have a glass of wine on that porch for my stomach's sake!

 

[Cee]

The issue can not be skirted around...

Either we believe Christ work makes us righteous or we believe our work does. And our work is self-righteousness.

But tthis also necessarily needs to play out into all forms of belief.

Is He my source of holiness or am I?
Do I follow Him and His Spirit by my effort or by His grace?
Am transformed by His grace or my works?

Christ gives us the answer to all of these questions.

I am the Vine.
You are the branches.
Apart from Me you can do nothing.
We bear His fruit because we abide in Him.
Why do we abide in Him? Because He loved us first.
We died to being our own Vine with sick fruit.
And we were grafted into Him, the True Vine.

No matter the question it comes down to this understanding...
He is the Truth
He is the Way
He is the Life.

ANYTHING we need we Ask Him.
He supplies ALL our needs.
As we understand this we bear His fruit.

He supplies our joy, our life, our grace, our power, our love, our freedom, our understanding of Him, our good works, our new man, our peace, our provision. He supplies it all. All. All.

Apart from Him we can do no-thing.
Any theology or Scripture interpretation that detracts from this should be questioned strongly.

Simply look to His life.
Everything He did was through the Spirit.
He only did His Father's works.
It was all given to Him.
And He Agreed with Him.
May we do the same in ALL things.

This theme is through ALL Scripture.
Adam and Eve were tempted by it.
Jesus was tempted by it.
And today we are still tempted by it.
Did God really say I was free?
Or do I need to try to figure out on my own?
Selah.

 

[Grace777x70]

Well now thank you for this!!! Much appreciated!

Since now, not only am I going to sweep my back porch, but I am also going to have a glass of wine on that porch for my stomach's sake!

LOL...that is a great way to handle the "baiting" and "insults".

We are well aware of the purpose for the insults and baiting and it's best to stay away from these types and keep our interaction with them to a bare minimum. Enjoy your "porch". All is well...

 

[disciplemike]

Well now thank you for this!!! Much appreciated!

Since now, not only am I going to sweep my back porch, but I am also going to have a glass of wine on that porch for my stomach's sake!

better have a parapet on that porch if you are drinking wine.

 

[gotime]

This is by no means a new issue in the church as I am sure many are aware. Can we be holy? can sin be really overcome?

I think the bible is very clear that the answer is yes. The problem is in how this takes place. It can't be a work of man but a work of God. Only the creator can make something new and holy from something old and sinful. This is a Trust issue. Do we trust Gods promises? Do we believe His word or promise? If so we shall have that holiness that is not of man but of Christ. We will be changed and renewed in his image. It is his work based on his promise to a hopeless helpless humanity.

We can not have this until we have come to a place where we see our need and our utter inability to attain to that which we seek on our own or by any of our own efforts big or small.

 

[PeterJens]

The issue can not be skirted around...

Either we believe Christ work makes us righteous or we believe our work does. And our work is self-righteousness.

Thankfully Christ brings us to the place where we can walk righteously through Him.
The goal of Christ is to bring us to himself and the Father to walk as He walks.

Now the whole point is separation from God brings us into self justification of our
behaviour rather than doing the right things in the right way.

If one polarises where you are to either place you miss them both because in
the Lord we are in a state of transition.

So when we meet the Lord he carries us, but as we grow we take more of the
reality. If ones life is staying the same or getting worse then the obvious
conclusion is something is going wrong. Is Jesus your friend and Lord, or
are you just a loser who needs someone to make you feel better about yourself.

Jesus died to bring us reality, freedom and to walk in His ways.
It is our inheritence, then how come some so easily fail to even live the walk,
even for a few minutes.

When Jesus finished the sermon on the mount did he say, guys I am only joking,
I just want you to get depressed and realise it is all impossible so just believe in
me, or if you do these things you will stand on the rock and not fall.

I guess my friends this is you question to answer, but I have only one answer in
my life, do these things and you will find He spoke the truth. Amen and Halleluyah.

 

[Stephen63]

I do agree with Grace777x70, LadyLynn, Ben and others on grace.

I only researched Prince after he became a hot topic here.

I do agree with some of what he teaches on grace and I especially do agree with his doctrine of the new Adam and eternal security. Grace 777x70 and I part company on many other doctrines.

When I saw some parts of Prince teachings that I did not think lined up scripture from what was on the discussion board that is when I did my research and it had to do with healing and not ever having disease in a believers life and I wholeheartedly disagreed with Grace 777X70 on this.

I cannot recall calling you a legalist and if I did I am sorry, I do know that we part company on the eternal salvation of the believer since we have discussed it on other threads.

Joseph Prince really gets you going ... wow.

NOW she says she's done research! First she watched only two videos, now she claims she researched him!

My responce: too little, too late.

Seems that we're hearing some more garbage.

Prince doesn't get me going..... Constantly changing stories from someone proven to accuse, mock, & judge while she believes she can play the innocent card. Nuttin' innocent about you, or those that try to help you cover it back up.

Since you're not what you say you are, that leaves the rest who are not so "innocent" highly questionable.