Homosexuality is not a choice!!!!

[Omni]

Our government has abandoned all standards of moral conduct. Having done so, how would you expect them to behave? Even nature testifies to the depravity of homosexuality. Our society as sunken below the level of ignorant animals; And God gives the the freedom to make that choice. God does not force choices on us but he is very clear that the choices we make will have forced consequences.

Then I would assert that such is the very definition of a false dichotomy. I also take this position on nature: seeing as humans -- of which large numbers are homosexual -- are fundamentally part of it, nature validates homosexuality. But that's besides the point in a legal, constitutional context. America was founded on the principles of personal liberty, religious freedom, and individual autonomy. As I wrote in another thread:

If we have two common citizens in a secular state -- a straight Christian and a gay non-Christian -- it is not the place of either to dictate for the other how they must live their own, personal lives. Each of those people live under the promise of personal liberty and individual freedom, so long as each of those people's actions do not cause any violation of rights upon the other person.

So, for instance, in secular countries, people have the freedom of practicing religion, and that freedom extends only insofar as it does not abridge another person's freedom to practice no religion. So, you could open a non-profit church tomorrow, and because of that church's status -- by virtue of its legal standing as regards its separateness from state -- you could refuse gay people entry and you could also refuse gay people a marriage. The reason you're allowed to do this is because you own the religious organization (the church) and that church's very purpose is to further the precedents of the Holy Bible, one of which is the teaching: homosexuality is a sin and marriage is between a man and a woman.

However, the state is not a church, and a judge or lawyer (an agent of state) is not a pastor or priest (an agent of church). Therefore, it is not legal for you to be able to command the state to exclude gay people or refuse gay unions, because there is no fundamental secular principle upon which you can justify such a command -- the governmental body is separate from the churches and as such does not base its precedents upon biblical codes, but rather upon the right of all its citizens to be equal in the eyes of the law, as well as the right of each to utilize autonomy, personal freedom, and individual liberty within the self regulatory boundaries of those rights; functionally, those rights prevent infringement on the rights of others.

Therefore it is legally acceptable for a person to be gay and non-Christian, just as it is legally acceptable for a person to be straight and Christian: both are valid personal lifestyle choices in the eyes of the law.

 

[oldhermit]

Then I would assert that such is the very definition of a false dichotomy. I also take this position on nature: seeing as humans -- of which large numbers are homosexual -- are fundamentally part of it, nature validates homosexuality. But that's besides the point in a legal, constitutional context. America was founded on the principles of personal liberty, religious freedom, and individual autonomy. As I wrote in another thread:

If we have two common citizens in a secular state -- a straight Christian and a gay non-Christian -- it is not the place of either to dictate for the other how they must live their own, personal lives. Each of those people live under the promise of personal liberty and individual freedom, so long as each of those people's actions do not cause any violation of rights upon the other person.

So, for instance, in secular countries, people have the freedom of practicing religion, and that freedom extends only insofar as it does not abridge another person's freedom to practice no religion. So, you could open a non-profit church tomorrow, and because of that church's status -- by virtue of its legal standing as regards its separateness from state -- you could refuse gay people entry and you could also refuse gay people a marriage. The reason you're allowed to do this is because you own the religious organization (the church) and that church's very purpose is to further the precedents of the Holy Bible, one of which is the teaching: homosexuality is a sin and marriage is between a man and a woman.

However, the state is not a church, and a judge or lawyer (an agent of state) is not a pastor or priest (an agent of church). Therefore, it is not legal for you to be able to command the state to exclude gay people or refuse gay unions, because there is no fundamental secular principle upon which you can justify such a command -- the governmental body is separate from the churches and as such does not base its precedents upon biblical codes, but rather upon the right of all its citizens to be equal in the eyes of the law, as well as the right of each to utilize autonomy, personal freedom, and individual liberty within the self regulatory boundaries of those rights; functionally, those rights prevent infringement on the rights of others.

Therefore it is legally acceptable for a person to be gay and non-Christian, just as it is legally acceptable for a person to be straight and Christian: both are valid personal lifestyle choices in the eyes of the law.

You are wrong about nature validating homosexuality but even if you were not, nature is not the standard for human moral conduct. The Word of God is the standard for human moral conduct whether man chooses to accept it or not. It makes no difference what laws our governments may pass attempting to normalize homosexuality. I will extend to it no measure of dignity, nor will I recognize the legitimacy of it, nor will I attempt to justify it or rationalize it or try to attempt to explain it away. I will stand upon what God has said about it.... Even if it costs me every friend I have.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

However, the state is not a church, and a judge or lawyer (an agent of state) is not a pastor or priest (an agent of church). Therefore, it is not legal for you to be able to command the state to exclude gay people or refuse gay unions, because there is no fundamental secular principle upon which you can justify such a command ...

Gay marriage has no precedent in the history of mankind. Many object on non-religious grounds to a small group trying to redefine for their own agenda a societal norm that has served humanity well since it's inception. It's simply destabilizing for no good reason.

 

[PeterJens]

In such a debate as this you have to put a historical context on this.
People were killed for being gay. Now as a defence of short lives, in the rush for survival it makes sense, because often sexual immorality was a death sentence through disease. With modern medicine there is now safety and choice. It is no longer a life and death issue, but a lifestyle choice or moral dilemma.

As a christian I look at it as putting morality above personal desires. Sexual activity is about creating children, and bonding with a partner of the opposite sex to build a family. It is where we all came from on the planet. So though I would not discriminate against people who choose to live a homosexual lifestyle, it is still sin and not a righteous lifestyle.

The crying shame is society opens its arms to every sexual deviant behaviour, and is destroying families and faithfulness while calling this progress. If society was actually being moral or real about the dilemmas I would not be so worried, but this is just hedonism, if it turns you on, it is ok.

Jesus talked about bonding in marriage, if you could live single ( non sexually active ) that was preferable to the level of compromise a couple have to go through.

Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”
Matt 19:10-12

 

[Omni]

[/B]

Gay marriage has no precedent in the history of mankind. Many object on non-religious grounds to a small group trying to redefine for their own agenda a societal norm that has served humanity well since it's inception. It's simply destabilizing for no good reason.

That's a specious argument for two reasons:

1. Marriage was a concept long before American society, and well before Judaism was around. Marriage was not always defined as one woman and one man, either. Read: Polygamy in Jewish cultures. Study Hinduism. See literature documenting Ancient Egypt.

2. Same sex union existed in various cultures: Ancient Greece; Mesopotamia; Ancient Egypt; Fuijan during the Ming Dynasty; throughout the Zhou Dynasty; and is already legal in eleven European countries. In fact, various South American and Native northern American societies practiced same sex unions long before Europeans ever settled on American soil. Technically, gay marriage was acceptable in America centuries ago.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

That's a specious argument for two reasons:

1. Marriage was a concept long before American society, and well before Judaism was around. Marriage was not always defined as one woman and one man, either. Read: Polygamy in Jewish cultures. Study Hinduism. See literature documenting Ancient Egypt.

2. Same sex union existed in various cultures: Ancient Greece; Mesopotamia; Ancient Egypt; Fuijan during the Ming Dynasty; throughout the Zhou Dynasty; and is already legal in eleven European countries. In fact, various South American and Native northern American societies practiced same sex unions long before Europeans ever settled on American soil. Technically, gay marriage was acceptable in America centuries ago.

Whatever those unions entailed they were the anomaly, not the norm. Modern Europe is irrelevant. They are following the same perversion a small minority in the US is trying to force on everyone else by judicial decree. It's all part of the same phenomenon.

 

[Omni]

Whatever those unions entailed they were the anomaly, not the norm. Modern Europe is irrelevant. They are following the same perversion a small minority in the US is trying to force on everyone else by judicial decree. It's all part of the same phenomenon.

Nobody's forcing you to be gay, nor is anybody forcing Christian churches to perform gay ceremonies. Churches are well within their rights to refuse. This enables Christians to practice their faith, while allowing non Christians to be recognized by the state if two of the same sex should marry. Nobody's "forcing" you to actually live your life any different, or to give up any of the rights you already have.

 

[dcontroversal]

SURE IT IS...Romans 1 and it also sets forth a mind void of any spiritual discernment and is the final straw that breaks the camel's back which leads to wrath!

 

[Kefa54]

I have seen some boys grow up. They had homosexual tendencies from like 7 years old to adult. In this person is born with it. NOW...Choosing to act upon those urges is a sin. Just like a straight couple can choose to sin.

The problem is marriage. Gays can't ever be married in Gods eyes. The state can give them a legal civil marriage but it has nothing to do with Cod.

Being gay is not a sin. Acting upon it is.


The following is a list of things the Bible considers an abomination:

• Unclean things (Lev. 7:21)
• Customs of pagans (Lev. 18:30)
• Idols (2 Chr. 15:8; 1 Pet. 4:3)
• Sins of men (Ps. 14:1; 53:1)
• Cheating (Mic. 6:10)
• Lost souls (Rev. 21:8)
• A froward man (perverse; one who turns aside (Pro. 3:32; 11:20)
• A proud look (Pro. 6:16-17)
• A lying tongue (Pro. 6:17; 12:22)
• Hands that shed innocent blood ((Pro. 6:17)
• A wicked scheming heart (Pro. 6:18)
• Feet that are quick to sin (Pro. 6:18)
• A false witness that speaks lies (Pro. 6:19)
• A sower of discord (Pro. 6:19)
• Wickedness (Pro. 8:7)
• A false balance or scale (Pro. 11:1)
• Sacrifices of the wicked (Pro. 15:8; 21:27)
• The way of the wicked (Pro. 15:9)
• The thoughts of the wicked (Pro. 15:26)
• The proud of heart (Pro. 16:5)
• Justifying the wicked (Pro. 17:15)
• Condemning the just (Pro. 17:15)
• Divers, dishonest weights (Pro. 20:10, 23)
• Divers, dishonest measures (Pro. 20:10)
• Refusing to hear the law (Pro. 28:9)
• Prayers of the rebel (Pro. 28:9)
• Eating flesh of peace offerings on the 3rd day (Lev. 7:18)
• Some same sex acts (Lev. 18:22; 20:13; Dt. 23:18) See GayPrejudice.com
• Taking ornaments from idols when being destroyed (Dt. 7:25-26)
• Any Idolatrous practices (Dt. 12:31; 13:14; 17:4; 18:9; 20:18; 29:17)
• Offering an imperfect animal to God as a sacrifice (Dt. 17:1)
• Any traffic with demons (Dt. 18:7-12)
• Wearing clothes of the opposite sex (Dt. 22:5) See GayPrejudice.com
• Bringing the hire of a harlot or sodomite into God's house (Dt. 23:18)
• Re-marriage of former companions (Dt. 24:1-4)
• Cheating others (Dt. 25:13-16)
• Making images/idols (Dt. 27:15)
• Idols of Ammon (1 Ki. 11:5)
• Idols of Moab (1 Ki. 11:7; 2 Ki. 11:13)
• Idols of Zidon (2 Ki. 23:13)
• Incense offered by hypocrites (Isa. 1:13)
• Eating unclean things (Isa. 66:17)
• Offering human sacrifices (Jer. 32:35)
• Robbery (Ezek. 18: 6-13)
• Murder (Ezek. 18: 6-13)
• Adultery (Ezek. 18: 6-13)
• Oppression of others, particularly the poor or vulnerable (Ezek. 18: 6-13)
• Violence (Ezek. 18: 6-13)
• Breaking vows (Ezek. 18: 6-13)
• Lending with interest to a brother (Ezek. 18: 6-13)
• Lying with a menstruous woman (Ezek. 18: 6-13)
• Hardness of heart (Ezek. 18: 6-13)
• Injustice (Ezek. 18: 6-13)
• Worship of anti-Christ (Dan. 11:31; 12:11; Mt. 24:15; 2 Th. 2:4; Rev. 13)
• Incest (Lev. 19: 6-30)
• Things highly esteemed by man (Lk. 16:15)
• Many other sins of the nations (Lev. 18: 26-29; Dt. 18: 9-12; 20:18; 29:17; 1 Ki. 14:24; 21:2, 11; 23:24; 2 Chr. 28:3; 33:2; 34:33; 36:14; Ezek. 7: 3-20; 8: 6-17; 16: 2-58; 20: 4-30; Rev. 17: 4-5)

It is abundantly clear from scripture that ALL SIN is considered an abomination by God. While one can debate degrees of seriousness and punishment for sin, it is clear that, according to the Bible, ALL sin is an abomination!


( I'm going to catch heck for this post)

And...NO I don't support Gays. I support the love it takes to lead them to Christ.


Kefa

 

[cupid]

Its not. People are born a sexuality. No one can choose to just be attracted to a certain gender.

Whether you are right or not, the real issue is not being Gay.
The real issue is fatherless kids which appear when people announce their sexual behaviors openly.

Whether Straight, Gay, or otherwise, the adult behavior in the bedroom must be your secret and call for shame if expressed to others.
A Sexual Culture hurts kids.

Matthew 18:6
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

 

[cupid]

Nobody's forcing you to be gay, nor is anybody forcing Christian churches to perform gay ceremonies. Churches are well within their rights to refuse. This enables Christians to practice their faith, while allowing non Christians to be recognized by the state if two of the same sex should marry. Nobody's "forcing" you to actually live your life any different, or to give up any of the rights you already have.

That all sounds fine.
But the kids are never mentioned in regard to marriages which are designed to protect them, not be nice to the couple who are having sex.


Kids raised by two natural parents benefit over all other situations:

 

[PoetMary]

Whether you are right or not, the real issue is not being Gay.
The real issue is fatherless kids which appear when people announce their sexual behaviors openly.

Whether Straight, Gay, or otherwise, the adult behavior in the bedroom must be your secret and call for shame if expressed to others.
A Sexual Culture hurts kids.

Matthew 18:6
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Even when sexual sin was happening in secret, plenty of illegitimate children were born. Keeping sin secretive doesn't rid the world of the consequences of these sins.

It does mean we don't have to read about it on Facebook, though.

 

[saintandrew4life]

I agree homosexuality is not a choice.

 

[Yeraza_Bats]

It is, though. It is only acting out on a sexual desire, and you have the power to deny it. That makes it a choice.

 

[Mitspa]

I have seen some boys grow up. They had homosexual tendencies from like 7 years old to adult. In this person is born with it. NOW...Choosing to act upon those urges is a sin. Just like a straight couple can choose to sin.

The problem is marriage. Gays can't ever be married in Gods eyes. The state can give them a legal civil marriage but it has nothing to do with Cod.

Being gay is not a sin. Acting upon it is.


The following is a list of things the Bible considers an abomination:

• Unclean things (Lev. 7:21)
• Customs of pagans (Lev. 18:30)
• Idols (2 Chr. 15:8; 1 Pet. 4:3)
• Sins of men (Ps. 14:1; 53:1)
• Cheating (Mic. 6:10)
• Lost souls (Rev. 21:8)
• A froward man (perverse; one who turns aside (Pro. 3:32; 11:20)
• A proud look (Pro. 6:16-17)
• A lying tongue (Pro. 6:17; 12:22)
• Hands that shed innocent blood ((Pro. 6:17)
• A wicked scheming heart (Pro. 6:18)
• Feet that are quick to sin (Pro. 6:18)
• A false witness that speaks lies (Pro. 6:19)
• A sower of discord (Pro. 6:19)
• Wickedness (Pro. 8:7)
• A false balance or scale (Pro. 11:1)
• Sacrifices of the wicked (Pro. 15:8; 21:27)
• The way of the wicked (Pro. 15:9)
• The thoughts of the wicked (Pro. 15:26)
• The proud of heart (Pro. 16:5)
• Justifying the wicked (Pro. 17:15)
• Condemning the just (Pro. 17:15)
• Divers, dishonest weights (Pro. 20:10, 23)
• Divers, dishonest measures (Pro. 20:10)
• Refusing to hear the law (Pro. 28:9)
• Prayers of the rebel (Pro. 28:9)
• Eating flesh of peace offerings on the 3rd day (Lev. 7:18)
• Some same sex acts (Lev. 18:22; 20:13; Dt. 23:18) See GayPrejudice.com
• Taking ornaments from idols when being destroyed (Dt. 7:25-26)
• Any Idolatrous practices (Dt. 12:31; 13:14; 17:4; 18:9; 20:18; 29:17)
• Offering an imperfect animal to God as a sacrifice (Dt. 17:1)
• Any traffic with demons (Dt. 18:7-12)
• Wearing clothes of the opposite sex (Dt. 22:5) See GayPrejudice.com
• Bringing the hire of a harlot or sodomite into God's house (Dt. 23:18)
• Re-marriage of former companions (Dt. 24:1-4)
• Cheating others (Dt. 25:13-16)
• Making images/idols (Dt. 27:15)
• Idols of Ammon (1 Ki. 11:5)
• Idols of Moab (1 Ki. 11:7; 2 Ki. 11:13)
• Idols of Zidon (2 Ki. 23:13)
• Incense offered by hypocrites (Isa. 1:13)
• Eating unclean things (Isa. 66:17)
• Offering human sacrifices (Jer. 32:35)
• Robbery (Ezek. 18: 6-13)
• Murder (Ezek. 18: 6-13)
• Adultery (Ezek. 18: 6-13)
• Oppression of others, particularly the poor or vulnerable (Ezek. 18: 6-13)
• Violence (Ezek. 18: 6-13)
• Breaking vows (Ezek. 18: 6-13)
• Lending with interest to a brother (Ezek. 18: 6-13)
• Lying with a menstruous woman (Ezek. 18: 6-13)
• Hardness of heart (Ezek. 18: 6-13)
• Injustice (Ezek. 18: 6-13)
• Worship of anti-Christ (Dan. 11:31; 12:11; Mt. 24:15; 2 Th. 2:4; Rev. 13)
• Incest (Lev. 19: 6-30)
• Things highly esteemed by man (Lk. 16:15)
• Many other sins of the nations (Lev. 18: 26-29; Dt. 18: 9-12; 20:18; 29:17; 1 Ki. 14:24; 21:2, 11; 23:24; 2 Chr. 28:3; 33:2; 34:33; 36:14; Ezek. 7: 3-20; 8: 6-17; 16: 2-58; 20: 4-30; Rev. 17: 4-5)

It is abundantly clear from scripture that ALL SIN is considered an abomination by God. While one can debate degrees of seriousness and punishment for sin, it is clear that, according to the Bible, ALL sin is an abomination!


( I'm going to catch heck for this post)

And...NO I don't support Gays. I support the love it takes to lead them to Christ.


Kefa

Lying to people or making excuses for what is clearly defined in the bible as the most repulsive of sins. (Rom 1)..don't lead anyone to Christ...its just leads folks into deception and puts some religious block on the conscience of those who are clearly going to suffer in hell. You do believe in hell ..right?

 

[Mitspa]

I agree homosexuality is not a choice.

I guess those attracted to children cant help that perversion either?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I guess those attracted to children cant help that perversion either?

Pedophilia is not a choice.


eh sorry left the SARC LOCK key on again...

 

[kaylagrl]

I agree homosexuality is not a choice.

The Bible disagrees with you...

 

[MarcR]

Doctors have identified in the development of the embryo in the womb, testosterone is released at differing levels, low for girls, higher for boys, which set the brain development to either be female or male in orientation.

It appears some boys very much behave and think like girls and some girls very much behave and think like boys. Now if you are one of these people you did not choose this. You also have a grey scale between the extremes.

As a society we have handled this by saying your body is female / male so that is what you are. If we have the power to help gender changes should we do this? Equally sexual drive and attraction vary, some choose, some are set.

The simple answer is adjust to the societies approximations, because that matters rather than reflecting personal developmental makeup. Over time the brain can adjust and behaviour will modify. So though things are set one way, we often can become something else if we want to enough. Gods law defines things in the general and makes things clear for the majority. If the society overthrows this for everybody to not discriminate against the minority, then emotional desire is set as the dictator and that road is death.

It is always a hard road between what you are and what you need to be.

If this is true (I don't dispute you), from a Biblical perspective; medical intervention to adjust estrogen or testosterone levels might be more appropriate than other alternatives.

 

[AllanSnackbar]

I guess those attracted to children cant help that perversion either?

Serial killers also have tendencies to kill, but they can't do it legally because there is a victim involved... Same as pedophilia.