Is Jesus God?

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oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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#62
I have posted these comments before some time ago. Perhaps this will help some of you now. I have no doubt some of you will to simply shrug it off. The problem most people have in trying to grasp the concept of the nature of God is that they have not first wrestled with how scripture itself deals with the concept of God.

Trying to get our minds wrapped around the concept of God, particularly as it relates to Jesus is a difficult undertaking. The difficulty is in our language use. Linguistic valence refers to the definitions that we attach to words in order to connect language to an idea. The problem that shows up in defining the nature of God is that we connect definitions to human language to help us create a picture of God with which we are comfortable. I offer the following well-known definition as an example. "God is one single unified essence. Yet, within this single unified essence of God are three separate and distinct persons of deity who are one God, each member having his part in the creation and redemption of man" (unknown source). Now, I am not at all sure when or where this definition of God originated, but it is one that I have heard from a number of different sources over the years. While this definition may represent a not altogether invalid understand of the triadic unity it does present three immediate problems.

1. The definition itself; Man is not prone to accept anything on faith. Man feels he must be able to define, explain, and classify a thing before he will accept it. This of course, becomes problematic when we think in terms of the nature of God. It is impossible to reduce God to a linguistic formula.

2. The use of the word ‘unified’. We can only comprehend unity as we see it within the confines of our own human experience, not as it applies to God.

3. The use of the word ‘essence’: The word essence is a good enough word I suppose. I am hard pressed to find a better one, but the way in which we have used this word in relationship to God does not seem to fit the profile of God in scripture. Strictly speaking, essence is that which makes a thing what it is. It is the inward nature of a thing underlying its manifestations. Essence refers to the characteristics and relations of a thing.

In his book THE TIMELESS TRINITY, Roy Lanier Jr. assigns this definition to the triadic unity. "God is one ‘being’ consisting of three persons, one essence, one ‘being’; an undivided essence."

The use of the term God in scripture does not seem to describe a single being as expressed by Mr. Lanier, but a single collective of three beings. Not one being made up of three parts but three beings united in one nature. The word God itself describes a perfect ontological state or quality of existence. God is not who he is, but what he is. Who he is, is Jehovah. What he is should be understood as an anthology of perfect attributes represented in three hypostatic distinctions.

God has never given us anything by which to formulate a picture of him as a spiritual being outside of his intrinsic attributes. What he has given us defines certain aspects of his nature, character, and function. When we talk about the nature of anything, it must be understood bi-camerally. The nature of any object or person is always made up of two parts. The first part is essence. Essence refers to those qualities that make a thing what it is. Take for example a flower. The essence of any flower is those traits that classify it as a flower. A flower is a seed producing plant consisting of four sets of organs - carpels, stamens, petals, and sepals. These traits typically classify the object as a flower. The second part is character. Each flower has its own distinguishing characteristics that define it still further. These characteristics separate it from all other flowers and give it individuality. These would be such traits as structure, type, shape, color, fragrance, type of fruit, and the type of climate and soil it requires. These are all qualities that define what kind of flower it is. Now, if we may be permitted to assign this definition to the nature of God, then the essence of God would be those qualities that make God, God. These would be qualities like Eternal, Self-existing, self-sustaining, Transcendent, All-powerful, All-knowing, All-wise, and Ever-present. The character of God would be those qualities that describe what kind of God he is. He is HOLY, loving, just, righteous, gentle, merciful, and so on. You may prefer to think of them as primary and secondary attributes.

These attributes do not constitute a substance or some type of spiritual equivalent to material form. They represent a quality of existence. This quality of existence is further amplified by what may be regarded as extended attributes that describe what kind of God this is. Both the intrinsic qualities and the extended properties are elements of all three hypostatic distinctions. While each member of the triadic unity seems to constitute some type of spiritual substance, the singularity of the three exists not only in the quality of existence but also in the attributes of their character, not in substance. We can never find a passage that relegates the term God to substance except within the framework of each individual member.

When we try to get our mind wrapped around the concept of a triune God that the scriptures describes as ONE GOD, we typically regard this as a paradox that is beyond the ability of the human mind to grasp or explain, so we simply accept it and move on. Over the past two centuries, four major theological theories have surfaced that have attempted to either explain the unity of one God or to refute or at least minimize the idea of triadic unity altogether. These are Monotheism (which is divided into two camps – Adoptionism and Modalism), Unitarianism, Tritheism, and Trinitarianism. To me, these terms are quite irrelevant. I really do not care what difference or similarities may exist between these four theological diciplines. I am only concerned with trying to understand how the Word of God represents the triadic unity without regard to any human classifications. If I may, I would like to offer a simple explanation that I believe might help us better grasp the idea of the oneness of the triadic unity.

Music is created around the structuring of chords. A chord is a collection of notes that form a harmonic. The ‘c’ cord for example, is a triad consisting of the notes c, e, and g. Each individual note within the triad functions in a specific relationship to the others creating a pleasing sound. These are three separate and distinct notes that function within given parameters yet, they are one chord. We do not have a problem understanding this concept as it relates to something as simple as music, but somehow when we think of God as a triadic ONE, our minds go into melt down. This illustration is by no means without its inadequacies and limitations but it does help us to understand the viability of the oneness of unity. Divine triadic function is a harmonic. It is an arrangement of parts rooted in the nature of God.

Scripture reveals God in three hypostatic distinctions. These three distinct functions involve intelligent design, active cause, and organization. For now, I will only refer to each of these in terms of his respective position within the triadic structure. I use the idea of position simply to show the functional relationship that each appears to have with the others and to define the role that each has within the triadic structure. The First Position (occupied by the Father) will always appear as the one who represents the idea or the planning. It is also the position of command. The Second Position (that occupied by the Logos) will always be the avenue of communication between the two worlds as well as the causative agent. He will be the one who gives substance to the idea. He takes what is abstract (the idea of the Father) and gives it form and substance. The Third Position (occupied by the Holy Spirit) will always serve as the linking agent. He is the one who brings order to the work of the Second Position. He organizes the work of the Second Position so that it conforms exactly to the idea of the First Position. He shapes a finished product.

These positional functions of each appear to be exclusive. In all of my 40 plus years as a student of scripture, I find it quite interesting that I have been unable to find a single textual example where one member of the Triadic Unity is seen operating in the function of another member. For example, we never seem to find the Third Position functioning as the active cause or the Second Position functioning as the linking agent. Each member of the triadic unity always appears to function within the parameters of his exclusive dynamic.

We attempt to describe God as a being with a spiritual substance that encapsulates three persons. This seems to be the only way we have been able to conceptualize the idea of a triadic ONE. The Hebrew, term for ONE in Deuteronomy 6:4 defines a unique ontological quality, not a numeric essence of being. There are places where some of these may appear to overlap but this does not change the basic parameters of positional function.

I am not sure if there is a better word to be used here than essence, but this emphasizes my point that the nature of God cannot be understood within the parameters of human language. The use of this term is one of our own creation. This word conveys on one level the idea of material existence suggesting form or shape, but this definition does not seem to be expressed in scripture. At the same time, it defines intrinsic qualities and characteristics that may have nothing to do with form, shape, or substance. It often refers to intrinsic attributes that are abstract. For example, one cannot see love. One can only see the evidence of love when it demonstrated in one's conduct. One cannot see kindness. One can only see the effects of kindness. This is how the word essence should be understood in relation to the nature of God. It is important that we do not equate essence with matter, form, or some type of spiritual equivalent to material substance when speaking of God. Remember, we are attempting to use human language to explain what is unexplainable this side of the eternal dimension. There have been many attempts to create models to help us understand the unity of ‘One’ God. I suppose I am no different in this regard. However, we must acknowledge the fact that it is impossible to create a definitive model of something we cannot see. How does one reduce God to a diagram on a piece of paper?
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#63
<img>http://www.piney.com/Trinity.Is.Not.Me.gif</img>
 
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oldernotwiser

Guest
#64
what is this "deity of jesus" question? for two thousand years christians have somehow defined god as trinity. why play word games. jesus is a window into the infinite god. wouldnt it be more productive to serve the weak and poor and and wait till we can ask him face to face about theological issues?
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#66
The Campbells said about what what Theophilus as the Trias inventer said and I believe what Jesus said when the Father breathed (Spirit) and He articulated the Word. Calvin was convinced to say three "aspects" of the One God the Father.

It seems
to have been a man named Theophilus of Antioch who first applied the term trinity to this Biblical concept as early as 181 A.D. But it was the Anathasian Creed, completed some time in the fifth century, which stated it most clearly: "We worship one God in trinity, and trinity in unity, neither confounding the persons, nor separating the substance."

Theophilus to Autolycus Doctrine of the trinity.

Chapter X.-The World Created by God Through the Word.

And first, they taught us with one consent that God made all things out of nothing; for nothing was coeval with God: but He being His own place, and wanting nothing,and existing before the ages, willed to make man by whom He might be known;
for him, therefore, He
prepared the world.For he that is created is also needy; but he that is uncreated stands in need of nothing.

......God, then, having His own Wordinternal within His own bowels,
......begat Him, emitting Him
......along with His own wisdom before all things.

He had this Word as a helper in the things that were created by Him, and by Him He made all things.
He [Word] is called "governing principle", because He rules, and is Lord of all things fashioned by Him.He [Word] , then, being Spirit of God, and GOVERNING PRINCIPLEand wisdom, and power of the highest,came down upon the prophets, and through them spoke of the creation of the world and of all other things. (This was the Spirit of Christ, 1 Peter 1:11; Revelation 19:10)
For the prophets were not when the world came into existence,
......but the wisdom [Spirit in this instance is Sophia] of God which was in Him, and
......His holy Word which was always present with Him.

Wherefore He speaks thus by the prophet Solomon:"When He prepared the heavens I (Wisdom or Sophia) was there,and when He appointed the foundations of the earth I was by Him as one brought up with Him." [ [Ps. cxix. 130. Note this tribute to the inspired Scriptures and their converting power; I might almost say their sacramental energy, referring to John vi. 63.]

And Moses, who lived many years before Solomon, or, rather, the Word of God by him as by an instrument, says, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

First he named the "beginning," and "creation," then he thus introduced God;
Beginning: 21 That is, the first principle, whom he has just shown to be the Word.

......for not lightly and on slight occasion is it right to name God.
......For the divine wisdom foreknew that some would trifle
...... and name a multitude of gods that do not exist.
In order, therefore, that the living God might be known by His works,
......and that [it might be known that] by His Word God created the heavens and the earth,
......and all that is therein,
......he said, "In the beginning [Word] God created the heavens and the earth."
......In like manner also the three days which were before the luminaries,
......are types of the Trinity,
......of [1] God, and His [2] Word, and His [3] wisdom.

[trias or Latin trinitas. The earliest use of this word "Trinity." It seems to have been used by this writer in his lost works, also; and, as a learned friends suggests, the use he makes of it is familiar. He does not lug it in as something novel: "types of the Trinity," he says, illustrating an accepted word, not introducing a new one.]
[An eminent authority says, "It is certain, that, according to the notions of Theophilus,
......God, His Word, and His wisdom constitute a Trinity;
......and it should seem a Trinity of persons." [Or personae]

Wisdom or Sophia was seen by the Jews to be the Spirit OF God.
 
Mar 25, 2014
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#67
Well, does God talk to himself, ask himself for mercy, pray to himself, cry out to himself, ask of himself, call himself greater than himself, praise himself, eat and drink to himself, fast for himself, call himself father and son simultaneously, look up to himself, hide 'that day and hour' from himself, and pretend not to be himself, be unable to look upon sin yet be human and look upon it, be unable to be tempted, yet be tempted?

If so, then Jesus is God.

If not, then Jesus is the son of God, while God is the father of all creation. Jesus worships God, as God looks favourably upon Jesus. Jesus eats and drinks to God, while God loves this child of his for doing so. Jesus cries out to God while God provides strength to Jesus. Jesus carries the spirit of Godliness, as God asks humanity to carry it. Jesus does work for God, as God has asked humanity to do. Jesus is one with God in purpose, as God asks humanity to be. Jesus asks the will of God, and carries it out, as God asks humanity to do. Jesus shows all God's word in his thought and action, as God asks humanity to show. Jesus pays attention and reverence to God, as God gives the teaching of compassion to Jesus.
 
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JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,242
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#68
It is sad people do not believe the Word when they read it.

When Isaiah, 9:6, foretold that unto us a Child was to be born, Isaiah also said the Child would be called Wonderful, Counselor, Prince of Peace, Everlasting Father, Almighty God...........

Jesus Christ is God. Because we cannot grasp the mystery of our loving Father, this is no excuse to call His words a lie. Jesus Christ, Yeshua is the Everlasting Father, the Almighty God, Counselor, Wonderful, Prince of Peace.

If He should talk to Himself, it is a certainty it is for the benefit of we here in this age to learn, not for us to consider a fault to criticize.



Well, does God talk to himself, ask himself for mercy, pray to himself, cry out to himself, ask of himself, call himself greater than himself, praise himself, eat and drink to himself, fast for himself, call himself father and son simultaneously, look up to himself, hide 'that day and hour' from himself, and pretend not to be himself, be unable to look upon sin yet be human and look upon it, be unable to be tempted, yet be tempted?

If so, then Jesus is God.

If not, then Jesus is the son of God, while God is the father of all creation. Jesus worships God, as God looks favourably upon Jesus. Jesus eats and drinks to God, while God loves his son for doing so. Jesus cries out to God while God provides strength to Jesus. Jesus carries the spirit of Godliness, as God asks humanity to carry it. Jesus does work for God, as God has asked humanity to do. Jesus is one with God in purpose, as God asks humanity to be. Jesus asks the will of God, and carries it out, as God asks humanity to do. Jesus shows all God's word in his thought and action, as God asks humanity to show. Jesus pays attention and reverence to God, as God gives the teaching of compassion to Jesus.
 
Mar 25, 2014
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#69
It is sad people do not believe the Word when they read it.

When Isaiah, 9:6, foretold that unto us a Child was to be born, Isaiah also said the Child would be called Wonderful, Counselor, Prince of Peace, Everlasting Father, Almighty God...........

Jesus Christ is God. Because we cannot grasp the mystery of our loving Father, this is no excuse to call His words a lie. Jesus Christ, Yeshua is the Everlasting Father, the Almighty God, Counselor, Wonderful, Prince of Peace.

If He should talk to Himself, it is a certainty it is for the benefit of we here in this age to learn, not for us to consider a fault to criticize.
I'm not calling anything a lie, you've taken the initiative with that one. I'm calling some interpretations a bit strange and contradictory to what Jesus himself said, namely 'the father is greater than I', and 'only one is good; God', not to mention the numerous occasions that he makes the distinction between himself and God, says he will sit at the right hand of God, and is seen separate from God.

Just because someone is called 'God' by men, doesn't make him God. Even the disciples realized the pharisees were wrong in saying Jesus called himself 'God' (shown below by Peter). Jesus was called 'blasphemer' by the pharisees too, that doesn't make him a blasphemer.

If Jesus were God, he would be all knowing. Jesus is not all knowing, he doesn't know 'that day and hour'.

If Jesus were God, he would have said 'I am God'. He did not. He said 'the father is greater than I'.

If Jesus were God, he would have not been 'given' power and authority, he would have BEEN the power and authority; 'that which you have given me, I will keep'.

If Jesus were God, why did he speak to God in the third person?

If Jesus were God, yet God cannot, by his own decree, be tempted, then how can he be tempted in the desert? Is God a liar?

If Jesus were God, then why is Jesus 'not good' in the sense that God is good? ('Why call me good? Only one is good; God')

If Jesus were God, how come he can't save anyone, but only offers himself to the God who saves? How come he is 'called upon', rather than being 'God who came to Earth'? How come he does not glorify himself as the high priest, but rather glorify's the God who said 'thou art my son and today I have begotten you'??

Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; except he himself who also is compassed with infirmity? And by reason of this he, for the people , so also for himself, offered himself for sins. And no man takes this honour unto himself, but rather he who is called of God, as was Aaron. Like this, Christ did not glorify himself to be made a high priest; but rather for He that said unto him, 'You are my Son, today have I begotten you'. As He said also in another place, 'You are a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec'. as in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto Him that was able to save him from death.


If Jesus was God, why did he cry to God?

If Jesus was God, how come his disciples plainly realized that he was not? How come Jesus praised one for calling him only the messiah, son of God?

When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood,but by my Father in heaven.

If Jesus is God, how come Jesus worshipped God?

If Jesus is God, yet God cannot die in flesh nor spirit, how come Jesus died?
 
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Feb 21, 2014
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#70
God is in three Persons; this is abundantly clear from many passages: the end of Matthew 28; John's Gospel, especially chapters 13 thru 17; Romans 8; First John, etc.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#71
Too many people look up proof-texts and, as confessed, major in theology and not much Bible in context. The people who first used the trias concept used the word PERSONAE which does not mean person in the modern sense of a PEOPLE. God reveals Himself as the singular Jesus of Nazareth which in Matthew is to refute the eternal view that god must be a family just like ours.

Someone convinced John Calvin--without getting hurt--to use the word ASPECTS of God. If you read the history of trinity the concept was not in terms of father, spirit (mother) and eternally-infant son but:

There is ONE GOD THE FATHER: He is the Almighty and there cannot be two almighties.
There is ONE SON Jesus of Nazareth who became a son by obeying the father.
And, they say "we believe in the Holy Spirit" but they never thought of the Spirit OF God as being another PERSON (people) standing outside of Him.

The One God (Theos) made Jesus of Nazareth to be both Lord (Kurios) and Christ or Messiah.

It is easy to make God Almighty who IS Spirit into an idolatrous IMAGE so that everyone is forced to see God the father as a bit older, a bit taller and a bit smarter than the son.

We honor Jesus of Nazareth by letting Him be a man as the SEED of Abraham without proclaiming that the the ONE GOD THE FATHER cannot breathe (Spirit) or articulate words with always having all three "people" together. That means that neither is God Almighty.

My cat has personality but she is not God contrary to her attitude.
I am a "person" or People but Paul Tillich says that "not before the19th century did anyone call God a person whereas that is heresy."
 
Feb 21, 2014
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#72
Too many people look up proof-texts and, as confessed, major in theology and not much Bible in context. The people who first used the trias concept used the word PERSONAE which does not mean person in the modern sense of a PEOPLE. God reveals Himself as the singular Jesus of Nazareth which in Matthew is to refute the eternal view that god must be a family just like ours.

Someone convinced John Calvin--without getting hurt--to use the word ASPECTS of God. If you read the history of trinity the concept was not in terms of father, spirit (mother) and eternally-infant son but:

There is ONE GOD THE FATHER: He is the Almighty and there cannot be two almighties.
There is ONE SON Jesus of Nazareth who became a son by obeying the father.
And, they say "we believe in the Holy Spirit" but they never thought of the Spirit OF God as being another PERSON (people) standing outside of Him.

The One God (Theos) made Jesus of Nazareth to be both Lord (Kurios) and Christ or Messiah.

It is easy to make God Almighty who IS Spirit into an idolatrous IMAGE so that everyone is forced to see God the father as a bit older, a bit taller and a bit smarter than the son.

We honor Jesus of Nazareth by letting Him be a man as the SEED of Abraham without proclaiming that the the ONE GOD THE FATHER cannot breathe (Spirit) or articulate words with always having all three "people" together. That means that neither is God Almighty.

My cat has personality but she is not God contrary to her attitude.
I am a "person" or People but Paul Tillich says that "not before the19th century did anyone call God a person whereas that is heresy."
The Lord Jesus is gloriously and eternally the Son of God; John 1.14: 'and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth'.

Hebrews 1: the Lord Jesus is 'the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person'; 'unto the Son He saith: Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever'.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,708
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#73

This does not fly. Surely you are more than breath or thought/?

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

THe Father, Son and Holy Spirit, each are fully God. Hopefully thought isn't fully you.
 
Mar 25, 2014
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#74
Too many people look up proof-texts and, as confessed, major in theology and not much Bible in context. The people who first used the trias concept used the word PERSONAE which does not mean person in the modern sense of a PEOPLE. God reveals Himself as the singular Jesus of Nazareth which in Matthew is to refute the eternal view that god must be a family just like ours.

Someone convinced John Calvin--without getting hurt--to use the word ASPECTS of God. If you read the history of trinity the concept was not in terms of father, spirit (mother) and eternally-infant son but:

There is ONE GOD THE FATHER: He is the Almighty and there cannot be two almighties.
There is ONE SON Jesus of Nazareth who became a son by obeying the father.
And, they say "we believe in the Holy Spirit" but they never thought of the Spirit OF God as being another PERSON (people) standing outside of Him.

The One God (Theos) made Jesus of Nazareth to be both Lord (Kurios) and Christ or Messiah.

It is easy to make God Almighty who IS Spirit into an idolatrous IMAGE so that everyone is forced to see God the father as a bit older, a bit taller and a bit smarter than the son.

We honor Jesus of Nazareth by letting Him be a man as the SEED of Abraham without proclaiming that the the ONE GOD THE FATHER cannot breathe (Spirit) or articulate words with always having all three "people" together. That means that neither is God Almighty.

My cat has personality but she is not God contrary to her attitude.
I am a "person" or People but Paul Tillich says that "not before the19th century did anyone call God a person whereas that is heresy."
This is like my view, but I know a way to explain it much simpler.

God is the Father, creator of all creation, who is eternal, almighty, and complete. There is only one God.

God's word's contain his 'spirit' (like 'the spirit of compassion') and he gives these words that people might obey them, and thus, have this compassionate spirit.

Jesus, out of all humans, obeyed these words to the letter, thus had said spirit in fullness, yet still revered God above him.

The spirit is simply a way of thought, a perspective, a viewpoint. It's like 'team-spirit' or 'loving spirit' or 'joyful spirit'. Anyone can have it, and those who do not may find it through looking at christ's words and actions - his path, for 'going to the father'. looking at Jesus' persona and realizing 'THIS IS HOW GOD WANTS HUMAN BEINGS TO BEHAVE - WITH THE SPIRIT OF GODLINESS'.

Jesus can be the glory of the father simply BECAUSE he leads his life by the words. He has metaphorically 'become' them. In essence, he carries the spirit of God in fullness, since he applies God's teachings entirely. Thus, if God were to be human, he'd be like Jesus.

God ISNT human, but still, Jesus obeys it all.
 
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Feb 21, 2014
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#75
This is like my view, but I know a way to explain it much simpler.

God is the Father, creator of all creation, who is eternal, almighty, and complete. There is only one God.

God's word's contain his 'spirit' (like 'the spirit of compassion') and he gives these words that people might obey them, and thus, have this compassionate spirit.

Jesus, out of all humans, obeyed these words to the letter, thus had said spirit in fullness.

The spirit is simply a way of thought, a perspective, a viewpoint. It's like 'team-spirit' or 'loving spirit' or 'joyful spirit'. Anyone can have it, and those who do not may find it through looking at christ's words and actions. Not looking at them as 'keys' to avoiding hell, but rather, looking at Jesus' persona and realizing 'THIS IS HOW GOD WANTS HUMAN BEINGS TO BEHAVE - WITH THE SPIRIT OF GODLINESS'.
See post #72
 
S

Sophia1993

Guest
#76
To me, Jesus is God's son. He isn't God. How does it make sense that Jesus is talking to God on the cross and asking to forgive the people who crucified him? So what, Jesus (who is God) is talking to himself? Doesn't he call God, "Father?" God is his father.
 
Feb 21, 2014
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#77
To me, Jesus is God's son. He isn't God. How does it make sense that Jesus is talking to God on the cross and asking to forgive the people who crucified him? So what, Jesus (who is God) is talking to himself? Doesn't he call God, "Father?" God is his father.

"Unto the Son He saith: Thy Throne, O God, is for ever and ever" (Hebrews 1.8).

We need to accept revelation in the Scriptures, rather than rationalize away.
 
S

Sophia1993

Guest
#78
I'm not calling anything a lie, you've taken the initiative with that one. I'm calling some interpretations a bit strange and contradictory to what Jesus himself said, namely 'the father is greater than I', and 'only one is good; God', not to mention the numerous occasions that he makes the distinction between himself and God, says he will sit at the right hand of God, and is seen separate from God.

Just because someone is called 'God' by men, doesn't make him God. Even the disciples realized the pharisees were wrong in saying Jesus called himself 'God' (shown below by Peter). Jesus was called 'blasphemer' by the pharisees too, that doesn't make him a blasphemer.

If Jesus were God, he would be all knowing. Jesus is not all knowing, he doesn't know 'that day and hour'.

If Jesus were God, he would have said 'I am God'. He did not. He said 'the father is greater than I'.

If Jesus were God, he would have not been 'given' power and authority, he would have BEEN the power and authority; 'that which you have given me, I will keep'.

If Jesus were God, why did he speak to God in the third person?

If Jesus were God, yet God cannot, by his own decree, be tempted, then how can he be tempted in the desert? Is God a liar?

If Jesus were God, then why is Jesus 'not good' in the sense that God is good? ('Why call me good? Only one is good; God')

If Jesus were God, how come he can't save anyone, but only offers himself to the God who saves? How come he is 'called upon', rather than being 'God who came to Earth'? How come he does not glorify himself as the high priest, but rather glorify's the God who said 'thou art my son and today I have begotten you'??

Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; except he himself who also is compassed with infirmity? And by reason of this he, for the people , so also for himself, offered himself for sins. And no man takes this honour unto himself, but rather he who is called of God, as was Aaron. Like this, Christ did not glorify himself to be made a high priest; but rather for He that said unto him, 'You are my Son, today have I begotten you'. As He said also in another place, 'You are a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec'. as in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto Him that was able to save him from death.


If Jesus was God, why did he cry to God?

If Jesus was God, how come his disciples plainly realized that he was not? How come Jesus praised one for calling him only the messiah, son of God?

When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood,but by my Father in heaven.

If Jesus is God, how come Jesus worshipped God?

If Jesus is God, yet God cannot die in flesh nor spirit, how come Jesus died?
it's really obvious to me, and i got my answer now. thank you.
 
Mar 25, 2014
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#79
To me, Jesus is God's son. He isn't God. How does it make sense that Jesus is talking to God on the cross and asking to forgive the people who crucified him? So what, Jesus (who is God) is talking to himself? Doesn't he call God, "Father?" God is his father.
Exactly.

It's like this, if God instructs me to be compassionate to all humans, as he is compassionate, and if I AM compassionate to all humans, aren't I one with God?

Aren't I glorifying God by being as he is? By having compassion for all things, as he has compassion for all things?

Aren't I 'existing' as a manifestation of his words, by adhering completely to those words?

Aren't I a human manifestation of God's will?

The real issue is that a lot of people use the trinity as a key to saving from some fiery, fake hell (gehenna, an issue for another day). It's like they say 'I can understand this, I believe this, I'm better than they are and I'm going to heaven'.

When really, the point of God's teaching is to save us from selfishness and silly desire. There's no reason people can't BE like Jesus is - self sacrificing and compassionate to all ends. That's the point. Jesus proved it can be done, and God wants people to be like that.
 
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crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#80
what is this "deity of jesus" question? for two thousand years christians have somehow defined god as trinity. why play word games. jesus is a window into the infinite god. wouldnt it be more productive to serve the weak and poor and and wait till we can ask him face to face about theological issues?
He gave us enough simple and clear words revealing who He is.
Just because some heretics choose to contradict God's clear words we are supposed to all of a sudden 'wait til we can ask Him face to face.?

John 1:1, 14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.