Is John's Wrath to Come the same period as the Great Tribulation?
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That depends by how you are applying the two as one since there is that point of view of the bowls of wrath which does not necessarily start when the great tribulation starts but sometime in the middle of the great tribulation, and then there is that fiery judgment of wrath that will burn up one third of the earth that serves as a catalyst for the new world order and the mark of the beast system for which is what the great tribulation is.
There may be other views on how believers equate wrath with the great tribulation, so maybe you should express your view on how you equate what wrath in regards to the great tribulation.
Maybe you should share briefly why they are one event to understand your point of view & the question in the OP.
There may be other views on how believers equate wrath with the great tribulation, so maybe you should express your view on how you equate what wrath in regards to the great tribulation.
Maybe you should share briefly why they are one event to understand your point of view & the question in the OP.
Here is how I see it - the wrath of God is associated with the great tribulation therefore they are in the same time frame, in a sense they are two events intrinsically inseparable.
I'm glad you brought up Thessalonians. Paul writes to them about the current tribulation they were under going and promised them relief from that tribulation:
2 Th 1:6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,;
2 Th 1:7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,
Earlier in his first letter he speaks regarding the tribulation there were suffering and says the wrath is coming upon them that are afflicting them:
(1 Th 3:4 KJV) For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.
1 Th 2:16 hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost.
We see that Paul is addressing "tribulation/affliction", there is no doubt in my mind that Paul was referring to John's pronouncement of the "wrath to come" when he wrote this.
This is the lead up to the great tribulation which would end at the appearing of the Lord delivering "John's Wrath" and bringing the promised relief for those such as the Thessalonians:
2 Th 1:7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,
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Relief - Greek - anesis
G425 anesis an'-es-is
from G447;
relaxation or (figuratively) relief.
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Affliction - Greek - thlibo
G2346 thlibo thlee'-bo
akin to the base of G5147;
to crowd (literally or figuratively).
KJV: afflict, narrow, throng, suffer tribulation, trouble.
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Hi Locutus
I haven't really looked at these scriptures, but the Jews did suffer wrath for rejection of Messiah. And Jesus is speaking to Israel in Matthew 24. Their nation did end in '70 AD and they were dispersed. Tribulation as they never experienced before did happen. So just looking at this way, you might have a point.
We could be seeing things entirely wrong and what we think is literal could be entirely spiritual and is happening now. The reason I say this is because of one who had a vision that shows that since the finished work of salvation is completed, we could be now in the period of the sheep being separated from goats because of the message of the gospel going out into all the nations.
Though it seems strange to us because of our thinking, is also seems reasonable to me. Not saying I accept it, just keeping it in mind as I too search to know truth.
I have a book in my library written by Jonathan Welton. Understanding The Seven Churches of Revelation. Haven't yet read it but his view is preterist too. He has an online school teaching this. You might be interested in what he has to say.
Im of the thought that these things are interesting to think about, but none of us really know yet what exactly is going to happen or we wouldn't have so many different views about it.
I am more caught up with Sonship and the period of time we are now in. I see those manifesting now and wish I was younger. Lol
I think we just need to be ready for whatever comes. But to put you down in any way is wrong for there are many who think as you do. Strong believers too, not wacky or flakey.
I haven't really looked at these scriptures, but the Jews did suffer wrath for rejection of Messiah. And Jesus is speaking to Israel in Matthew 24. Their nation did end in '70 AD and they were dispersed. Tribulation as they never experienced before did happen. So just looking at this way, you might have a point.
We could be seeing things entirely wrong and what we think is literal could be entirely spiritual and is happening now. The reason I say this is because of one who had a vision that shows that since the finished work of salvation is completed, we could be now in the period of the sheep being separated from goats because of the message of the gospel going out into all the nations.
Though it seems strange to us because of our thinking, is also seems reasonable to me. Not saying I accept it, just keeping it in mind as I too search to know truth.
I have a book in my library written by Jonathan Welton. Understanding The Seven Churches of Revelation. Haven't yet read it but his view is preterist too. He has an online school teaching this. You might be interested in what he has to say.
Im of the thought that these things are interesting to think about, but none of us really know yet what exactly is going to happen or we wouldn't have so many different views about it.
I am more caught up with Sonship and the period of time we are now in. I see those manifesting now and wish I was younger. Lol
I think we just need to be ready for whatever comes. But to put you down in any way is wrong for there are many who think as you do. Strong believers too, not wacky or flakey.
I bought Jonathan's book "Understanding the Seven Churches" stones - $9 on Kindle.
I see from his website he says he's a partial preterist due to not accepting cessationalism.
I don't think cessationalism needs to be a core tenet of full preterism although some do hold that position, especially those that came out of the Church of Christ.
I see from his website he says he's a partial preterist due to not accepting cessationalism.
I don't think cessationalism needs to be a core tenet of full preterism although some do hold that position, especially those that came out of the Church of Christ.
I am pretty much a full preterist, although there are a few things where I cannot conclusively find fulfillment. That said, I definitely subscribe to continuationism. I have seen and heard first-hand accounts of the spiritual gifts in use by some very strong and powerful Christians. It all comes down to faith.
That said, I agree also that neither continuationism or cessationalism are necessary to hold preterist's views.
That said, I agree also that neither continuationism or cessationalism are necessary to hold preterist's views.
Good to see you posting PL - I'm only a third of the way through Jonathan's "Seven churches" book on Kindle, so far I've found nothing to disagree with (he does making some interesting points in regards to when the old covenant came to an end - i.e. at 70 AD rather than the cross as some other theologies claim).
He has a book out on revelation (on Kindle too) " The Art of Revelation" - I will pick that up next.
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He has a book out on revelation (on Kindle too) " The Art of Revelation" - I will pick that up next.
[h=1][/h]
Awesome, please keep me posted. I believe the old covenant officially, formally passed away in 70 AD at the destruction of the temple.
Are you familiar with the below website? At the bottom of the page is their taken on the major prophetic passages. I agree with about 80% of this.
http://revelationrevolution.org/
Back to the Op. Of course the Great Tribulation = the Wrath of God. To understand this one simply needs to look back to the period prior to the defeat and subsequent captivity by the Babylonians. During this period God sent several prophets to warn the people to turn away from their sin (idol worship) and back to Him. They didn't and were punished with captivity and scattering.
During the Babylonian captivity God spoke to Daniel telling him that he was giving His people 70 weeks (490 years) to accomplish certain things that we see below:
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.
They didn't do it so in accordance with Mt 18:12, he brought another foreign power (Rome - Titus "the prince to come") to defeat them, utterly destroying their temple (again) and leading them back into captivity followed by a period of scattering for the small remnant not killed. Before His wrath punishment, God sent prophets John the Baptist and His own Son to warn of the coming judgment if they again rejected Him. Many believed and were saved, but most rejected Him and instead chose Caesar as their true king (Jn 19:15).
The pattern is identical. The judgment is identical (defeat, destruction of their temple, killed and carried away by foreigners with the remnant scattered. However, the righteous were spared having been divinely led to Pella hearing a voice from Heaven when to flee prior to the tribulation of those days, as recorded by Josephus.
During the Babylonian captivity God spoke to Daniel telling him that he was giving His people 70 weeks (490 years) to accomplish certain things that we see below:
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.
They didn't do it so in accordance with Mt 18:12, he brought another foreign power (Rome - Titus "the prince to come") to defeat them, utterly destroying their temple (again) and leading them back into captivity followed by a period of scattering for the small remnant not killed. Before His wrath punishment, God sent prophets John the Baptist and His own Son to warn of the coming judgment if they again rejected Him. Many believed and were saved, but most rejected Him and instead chose Caesar as their true king (Jn 19:15).
The pattern is identical. The judgment is identical (defeat, destruction of their temple, killed and carried away by foreigners with the remnant scattered. However, the righteous were spared having been divinely led to Pella hearing a voice from Heaven when to flee prior to the tribulation of those days, as recorded by Josephus.
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Yes, of course they are the same but you and I are in the minority
. There are far more milk drinkers out there. The GT was the period of torment inside Jerusalem whereby 1.1 million Jews died in various ways (4th seal).
Was He angry here?
[SUP]43 [/SUP]For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, [SUP]44 [/SUP]and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”
Was there a siege in 70 AD around the walls of Jerusalem?
Where else do we find not "one stone upon another?"
Here in Mt 24 perhaps?
...and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”
When was the temple destroyed? Would you say Luke 19 and Mt 24 go together? How about Luke 21?
Was He angry here?
[SUP]20 [/SUP]“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.
Do you see "wrath" in vs 23?
Who lives(ed) in Judea?
Who were "this people" which Jesus spoke of?
What vengeance? Vengeance against what? Did they people of Judea do something in 30 AD that might have mad God angry?
Did Jesus say, "all things which are written may be fulfilled? The timing of all of this was 1st century.
[SUP]43 [/SUP]For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, [SUP]44 [/SUP]and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”
Was there a siege in 70 AD around the walls of Jerusalem?
Where else do we find not "one stone upon another?"
Here in Mt 24 perhaps?
...and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”
When was the temple destroyed? Would you say Luke 19 and Mt 24 go together? How about Luke 21?
Was He angry here?
[SUP]20 [/SUP]“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.
Do you see "wrath" in vs 23?
Who lives(ed) in Judea?
Who were "this people" which Jesus spoke of?
What vengeance? Vengeance against what? Did they people of Judea do something in 30 AD that might have mad God angry?
Did Jesus say, "all things which are written may be fulfilled? The timing of all of this was 1st century.
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Again, what does Jesus say?
[SUP]22 [/SUP]For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled...
Ask yourself, when were the days of vengeance? Was there vengeance against those people in 70 AD? If so, where is future vengeance against the whole planet discussed? It isn't.
Jesus' presence (parousia) in fact returned in the first century, just as He said it would and just as history records it did. Now sure, He could return a third time, but nothing says He does. All things written were fulfilled!!!!
[SUP]22 [/SUP]For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled...
Ask yourself, when were the days of vengeance? Was there vengeance against those people in 70 AD? If so, where is future vengeance against the whole planet discussed? It isn't.
Jesus' presence (parousia) in fact returned in the first century, just as He said it would and just as history records it did. Now sure, He could return a third time, but nothing says He does. All things written were fulfilled!!!!