Is John's Wrath to Come the same period as the Great Tribulation?

[garee]

Wrath represents the anger of God. Tribulation is that which we experience. The wrath of God has been revealed ever since he first corrupted the first creation in the beginning. No one has received their new incorruptible body. .

The great tribulation began at the time of reformation when the shadows became substance signaled by the renting of the veil . The last days we are in.

The Pharisees with Sadducee's lost their high place as the trouble of Jacob. No outward representative (walking by sight) to be confused as a daysman .

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Well, you are mixing and matching concepts from various parts of the bible rather than understanding the whole - you could ask why read about the Flood, Exodus, the destruction of the first temple etc., all fulfilled - what's the point?

Just because from the preterist perspective of all fulfilled does not imply there is no point in having a "book" because certain things are still valid such as:

John 10:1 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

The above did not change in 70 AD.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Nothing changed here either - at death all Christians after 70 AD are translated to life eternal - in the immortal/spiritual body. That is the promise laid out through the scriptures.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

The life we have now in this flesh and bones body is partly "life eternal" because we are known and know God and Christ, the full inheritance of this life eternal occurs at death.

you could ask why read about the Flood, Exodus - Why would I ask about the Flood? it was prophesied and fulfilled. Why would I ask about the Exodus? It was prophesied and fulfilled. All the OT prophecies that have been fulfilled were written for our learning, so that we through the scriptures might have hope.

Well, you are mixing and matching concepts from various parts of the bible rather than understanding the whole - I used scripture containing prophecy regarding the Eternal Kingdom because that was what PW said we were living in. Why not just refer to the scriptures that I posted and tell me why those things are not occurring in the present world if we are in the Eternal Kingdom NOW?

partly life eternal? You don't get eternal life until you die - flesh and blood do not inherit eternal life. We will have our full inheritance when Christ redeems us from this present evil world.

 

[louis]

Louis,



You do realize don't you that John writes Revelation with a great deal of figurative (colorful) language taken from the OT prophets? I hope you realize this.

Did the 144K of Rev 7 actually get a seal placed on their foreheads?
Did Cain receive a visible mark in Gen 4?
Did angels actually place a literal mark on the foreheads of those who cried in Ez 9?

Therefore, the "mark" of Rev 13 is figurative. On the "foreheads and hands" means being aligned with and carrying out the commands of the beast. If you read this passage carefully, you will see that having the "mark" is not the only way one can buy or sell. Notice one can also have the name or number of the beast's name too. Only one of these 3 is required which totally negates the computer chip theory espoused by many.

and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Sadly I don't have time to answer more fully as I have to go. But I'd be happy to next time I come on.

You are diverting from the issue by asking many unrelated questions. You simply have no answer for why Grecia in Daniel 11:2 corresponds to the end times as indicated in Daniel 12:4 & 9.
But you are correct that it is figurative language. The bible uses many metaphors and analogies to convey scenes from the future which did not exist in the ancient world.
Example: The he goat in Daniel 8:5 (who according to the angel Gabriel in Daniel 8:21 corresponds to the king of Grecia); traverses the whole earth without touching the ground to destroy the lands of Media and Persia.
So according to your perspective that this event occurred in the 2nd century BC, how did ancient Greece accomplish this conquest traversing the entire earth from the west without touching the ground?
In contrast to your perspective that does not meet the criteria, I understand this event corresponding to the end times as indicated in Daniel 8:17 & 19, and therefore understand it as a nation whose air force traverses the whole earth from the west to conquer the lands of Media and Persia, which today correspond to much of what is Iran, Iraq, and parts of Syria.

Daniel 8:5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

 

[PlainWord]

these full preterist heretics also reject bodily resurrection

im not surprised

stop at once spreading this nonsense

Please show me the passage which states our dead bodies, decayed, rotten, buried, eaten by worms which are then eaten by fish then eaten by another person so that DNA from one dead person ends up in another living person reconstitutes into a spiritual body. I tell you there is no such passage. Corruptible flesh will not enter heaven.

Also, please stop calling us heretics. Although I adamantly disagree with your views and see them as childish and uninformed, I don't call you are a heretic.

 

[PlainWord]

You are diverting from the issue by asking many unrelated questions. You simply have no answer for why Grecia in Daniel 11:2 corresponds to the end times as indicated in Daniel 12:4 & 9.
But you are correct that it is figurative language. The bible uses many metaphors and analogies to convey scenes from the future which did not exist in the ancient world.
Example: The he goat in Daniel 8:5 (who according to the angel Gabriel in Daniel 8:21 corresponds to the king of Grecia); traverses the whole earth without touching the ground to destroy the lands of Media and Persia.
So according to your perspective that this event occurred in the 2nd century BC, how did ancient Greece accomplish this conquest traversing the entire earth from the west without touching the ground?
In contrast to your perspective that does not meet the criteria, I understand this event corresponding to the end times as indicated in Daniel 8:17 & 19, and therefore understand it as a nation whose air force traverses the whole earth from the west to conquer the lands of Media and Persia, which today correspond to much of what is Iran, Iraq, and parts of Syria.

Daniel 8:5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

I'm diverting from the issue you raise because it isn't germane to our discussion. I tried to explain it to you already and failed. You want to talk about 2nd century BC events and apply them to a future event when they don't even belong in the 1st century BC.

I don't mind going over this with you again if you want but I'm short on time right now. I ask you questions to challenge your position, yet you refuse to answer or address the short comings of your view. Let's try again. Please look at the below passage from Heb 9:

[SUP]26 [/SUP]He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. [SUP]27 [/SUP]And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, [SUP]28 [/SUP]so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Do you acknowledge that once at the "END OF THE AGES" Christ appeared to put away sin and that this was done on the Cross in ~27-33 AD?

If this is the "end of the ages" wouldn't other places mentioning the "end of the age" or "last days" also be referring to the same period?

Notice also that it is appointed for men to die once, followed by judgment. The preterist view is that when a believer dies (AND WE ALL WILL DIE), we go straight to heaven, transformed and glorified where we are judged and given rewards. Your view is a rapture (not death) where you are taken to heaven and glorified without death. Which of our views is more in line with the above passage?

Now consider this:

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

How can the Roman solders who pierced Christ in 30 AD witness his return if they are long dead with souls in Hades if Christ's return is yet future? Also, only two nations in the Bible were organized into tribes. Israel was one of the them.

 

[Snoozy]

Please show me the passage which states our dead bodies, decayed, rotten, buried, eaten by worms which are then eaten by fish then eaten by another person so that DNA from one dead person ends up in another living person reconstitutes into a spiritual body. I tell you there is no such passage. Corruptible flesh will not enter heaven.

Also, please stop calling us heretics. Although I adamantly disagree with your views and see them as childish and uninformed, I don't call you are a heretic.

i wont stop. its true. if u say Jesus isnt coming back im not sure if thats even under CHRISTIANITY. sounds like some other religion. notice i said im not sure. im sure its a heresy. but im not sure if u can be a christian and deny Jesus is coming back.

bodily resurrection here it is:

Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Luk 24:40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
Luk 24:41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
Luk 24:42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
Luk 24:43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

Jesus was eating.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Bump for PW:

To say Christ has returned and we are living in the Everlasting Kingdom cannot be true for there are things that don't line up with the view of the Everlasting Kingdom and the "era" in which we live:

Isaiah 35: 4b-10 . . . eyes of the blind will be open; the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped; the lame shall leap like a deer; the mute tongue will shout for joy; water will gush forth in the wilderness and streams in the desert . . . a highway will be there; it will be called the Way of Holiness; it will be for those who walk on that Way. The unclean will not journey on it; wicked fools will not go about on it. No lion will be there, nor any ravenous beast; they will not be found there . . .

Last I saw we still have the blind, deaf and mute; we still have the lame. We are walking amidst the "unclean" and "wicked fools".

And this: Awake, awake, Zion, clothe yourself with strength! Put on your garments of splendor, Jerusalem, the holy city. The uncircumcised and defiled will not enter you again. . . . Isaiah 52:6 . . . Just look at the people entering Jerusalem today and tell me that this prophecy is fulfilled?

What was fulfilled was the law concerning the Levitical Priesthood and the need for making sacrifices year after year to atone for sin. What was fulfilled was doing the 613 commandments/laws to obtain righteousness, and much more but Christ has not returned to claim his redeemed!

The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them. The cow will feed with the bear, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox. The infant will play near the cobra's den, the young child will put its hand into the viper's nest. They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain, for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the LORD . . . (Isaiah 11)

What about the promises - such as, no more tears, no more death, no more mourning or crying or pain?

If everything has been fulfilled what was the purpose of God giving us his word? What is the purpose of a book covering sin and righteousness - giving people hope; when it's all been fulfilled? Where is our hope?

 

[louis]

I'm diverting from the issue you raise because it isn't germane to our discussion. I tried to explain it to you already and failed. You want to talk about 2nd century BC events and apply them to a future event when they don't even belong in the 1st century BC.

I don't mind going over this with you again if you want but I'm short on time right now. I ask you questions to challenge your position, yet you refuse to answer or address the short comings of your view. Let's try again. Please look at the below passage from Heb 9:

[SUP]26 [/SUP]He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. [SUP]27 [/SUP]And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, [SUP]28 [/SUP]so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Do you acknowledge that once at the "END OF THE AGES" Christ appeared to put away sin and that this was done on the Cross in ~27-33 AD?

If this is the "end of the ages" wouldn't other places mentioning the "end of the age" or "last days" also be referring to the same period?

Notice also that it is appointed for men to die once, followed by judgment. The preterist view is that when a believer dies (AND WE ALL WILL DIE), we go straight to heaven, transformed and glorified where we are judged and given rewards. Your view is a rapture (not death) where you are taken to heaven and glorified without death. Which of our views is more in line with the above passage?

Now consider this:

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

How can the Roman solders who pierced Christ in 30 AD witness his return if they are long dead with souls in Hades if Christ's return is yet future? Also, only two nations in the Bible were organized into tribes. Israel was one of the them.

You have again responded with a diatribe that contradicts what scriptures clearly states is the case.
You did not respond to how your 2nd century BC he goat traversed the whole earth from the west without touching the ground.
How is your faith going to stand the test if your dogma contradicts scriptures and you refuse to acknowledge your error?

 

[PlainWord]

i wont stop. its true. if u say Jesus isnt coming back im not sure if thats even under CHRISTIANITY. sounds like some other religion. notice i said im not sure. im sure its a heresy. but im not sure if u can be a christian and deny Jesus is coming back.

bodily resurrection here it is:

Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Luk 24:40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
Luk 24:41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
Luk 24:42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
Luk 24:43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

Jesus was eating.

I'm saying Jesus returned in the 66-70 AD time frame just as He repeatedly said He would, "to His generation." All references to His return related to His parousia return where His presence is always with us. I am not ruling out the possibility that He may visibly come again, but I see nothing in scripture about this.

Have you read the earliest Christian writers from the 2nd century AD? Obviously the return of Christ was a hot topic for the disciples and Paul. That's all they could talk about. Why? Because they expected it in their generation, in the first century. Move on to the 2nd century and nobody was talking about Christ coming back. Instead, several were looking forward to death so that they could be with Jesus.

As for the bodily resurrection of Christ, he had not yet ascended to His Father thus He was not yet in His spiritual form (See John 20:17). As for eating, angels can eat when they are here. You see for a heavenly being to enter our physical dimension, they take our physical form.

 

[Bogadile]

As for the bodily resurrection of Christ, he had not yet ascended to His Father thus He was not yet in His spiritual form (See John 20:17). As for eating, angels can eat when they are here. You see for a heavenly being to enter our physical dimension, they take our physical form.

Jesus took on another form when He ascended to the Father?? Are there any verses for this. As far as I know, Jesus is still in His resurrection body.

 

[PlainWord]

P-B,

To say Christ has returned and we are living in the Everlasting Kingdom cannot be true for there are things that don't line up with the view of the Everlasting Kingdom and the "era" in which we live:

Isaiah 35: 4b-10 . . . eyes of the blind will be open; the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped; the lame shall leap like a deer; the mute tongue will shout for joy; water will gush forth in the wilderness and streams in the desert . . . a highway will be there; it will be called the Way of Holiness; it will be for those who walk on that Way. The unclean will not journey on it; wicked fools will not go about on it. No lion will be there, nor any ravenous beast; they will not be found there . . .

You are citing an OT passage and applying it to our future totally jumping over the accomplishments of Christ during His ministry. Wouldn't Isaiah talk about Christ coming before jumping to some future thousands of years after Christ? Did Christ not give sight to the blind (Mt 12:22), hearing to the deaf (Mk 7:32-37), and heal the lame so they could walk (Mt 11:5)? We have clear teaching of Christ healing all of these infirmities and more:

Mt 15:30-31:

[SUP]30 [/SUP]Then great multitudes came to Him, having with them the lame, blind, mute, maimed, and many others; and they laid them down at Jesus’ feet, and He healed them. [SUP]31 [/SUP]So the multitude marveled when they saw the mute speaking, the maimed made whole, the lame walking, and the blind seeing; and they glorified the God of Israel.

This was in the physical sense and it ALREADY HAPPENED!! But it also happened in the spiritual sense. NEVER under-appreciate Christ's work in the spiritual sense because it is far more important that anything we could observe with our eyes. Isaiah speaks also in the spiritual sense using figurative language just as Christ and the disciples used. Not understanding that figurative language is often used to discuss the spiritual is perhaps the biggest problem many have:

For waters shall burst forth in the wilderness, and streams in the desert: When God's salvation comes, miraculous provision comes with it. What was dry and useless before becomes well watered and fruitful. Jesus said He would bring this kind of beautiful provision in the lives of His people: "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive. (John 7:38-39). There is no reason for a Christian to endure a "dry time," not when the miraculous power of Jesus Christ to provide is present.

A Highway of Holiness: Today, we take good roads for granted. But in the ancient world, a good road - a highway -was an amazing blessing for travel, progress, and business. Isaiah announces that in the ministry of the Messiah, there will be a wonderful highway, a road, known as the Highway of Holiness. The Hebrew word for highway indicates what our English word literally says: "a high-way." It speaks of a raised road, lifted above the ground. It is a high, glorious road to "travel on!" The unclean shall not pass over it: This highway isn't for everyone. It has a "toll booth," but you can't make it on this highway by paying your way. You are only allowed on this highway if you are cleansed by the great work of the Messiah.

No lion shall be there: As we stay on God's Highway of Holiness, we are protected from the attacks of the lion. Though your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour (1 Pet 5:8), that lion has never yet devoured anyone who stayed on the road. The promise is sure, no lion shall be there! It shall not be found there!

For those who can only think carnally (physical realm) you are missing out on the bigger spiritual blessings and deeper understandings. LOC and I are here to help those who want to see clearer.

 

[PlainWord]

Jesus took on another form when He ascended to the Father?? Are there any verses for this. As far as I know, Jesus is still in His resurrection body.

Yes absolutely, there are passages that tell us that after Christ ascended to the Father, He became a very bright light as observed to those on the ground.

Acts 26: [SUP]12 [/SUP]“While thus occupied, as I journeyed to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests, [SUP]13 [/SUP]at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ [SUP]15 [/SUP]So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.

THUS CHRIST APPEARED AS A VERY BRIGHT LIGHT, BRIGHTER THAN THE SUN

So, when Christ returned to heaven accompanied by the clouds of heaven, He returned to His spiritual form, the only form we can see on earth.

Acts 1:[SUP] 9 [/SUP]Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, [SUP]11 [/SUP]who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

So, when He returns (ed), we would expect to see him in like manner as He went into heaven, not as He left earth. You see there must have been a flash of bright light as Christ left our dimension and entered the heavenly or spiritual dimension. When Christ returns (ed) it was like a flash of lightening Mt 24:27 in terms of speed and illumination. Rev 18 gives us this description.

After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illuminated with his glory.

Only Christ can illuminate the earth with His glory. Josephus records this very event:

...and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it...

The above fulfills Rev 1:7:

Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

EARTH = ISRAEL and the tribes of Israel saw this bright light as did the Roman solders (those who pierced Him) who surrounded Jerusalem. The "clouds of heaven" are the angels and saints all dressed in white in such numbers to look like clouds. This too was recorded by Josephus:

a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise...

Does the earthquake and great noise sound familiar? It should!!

 

[stillness]

What gives you the impression that John is angry?
About the revelation of Jesus Christ: everyone must be rewarded according to their labour and God having taken the blame for His creation appears to be the one bringing judgment on themselves. I still have no idea how it will unfold except that it's in my lifetime and it's good to admit we don't know, if we think we know we stop learning. "If any man thinks he knows, he does not know as he should."

 

[Bogadile]

Yes absolutely, there are passages that tell us that after Christ ascended to the Father, He became a very bright light as observed to those on the ground.

Acts 26: [SUP]12 [/SUP]“While thus occupied, as I journeyed to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests, [SUP]13 [/SUP]at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ [SUP]15 [/SUP]So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.

THUS CHRIST APPEARED AS A VERY BRIGHT LIGHT, BRIGHTER THAN THE SUN

So, when Christ returned to heaven accompanied by the clouds of heaven, He returned to His spiritual form, the only form we can see on earth.

This does make sense on a logical level. But I am afraid to believe it. This just has a gnostic feel to it, I have heard it said quite a bit that Jesus took on human nature forever.

 

[Locutus]

What gives you the impression that John is angry?

What gives you the impression John was pleased with the vipers?

Besides, had you read the open post and understood the question posed in the thread it's plain that the question is about the wrath to come that John spoke of.

 

[Locutus]

This does make sense on a logical level. But I am afraid to believe it. This just has a gnostic feel to it, I have heard it said quite a bit that Jesus took on human nature forever.

There is nothing gnostic about it - there is a physical body and a spiritual body:

1 Cor 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

If you think that Christ is still in his natural body your "theology" is not in compliance with Paul's statements.

 

[Bogadile]

There is nothing gnostic about it - there is a physical body and a spiritual body:

1 Cor 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

If you think that Christ is still in his natural body your "theology" is not in compliance with Paul's statements.

The spiritual body I would understand to be the same body that was still capable of eating, and the disciples saw and felt. Not a mere light.

 

[Locutus]

The spiritual body I would understand to be the same body that was still capable of eating, and the disciples saw and felt. Not a mere light.

When Christ appeared to Paul on the road what was the form he saw?

 

[Bogadile]

When Christ appeared to Paul on the road what was the form he saw?

As I said agreed earlier. He saw a light. I got no issue with that. Jesus can appear in any form He pleases. Jesus is also called a lamb with many eyes in revelation.

So certainly it is still possible that Jesus is in the body that He resurrected in. I think it is most likely, in fact I would say premillennialism of any sort depends on it.

Hypostatic union I think is the professional term for it, 100% God 100% man.

 

[Locutus]

So certainly it is still possible that Jesus is in the body that He resurrected in. I think it is most likely, in fact I would say premillennialism of any sort depends on it.

I believe the body he had after his resurrection was the same natural body he died with, i.e. not the spiritual body that is not subject to decay.