Is John's Wrath to Come the same period as the Great Tribulation?

[garee]

The wrath of God has been revealed by God as a tribulation from the beginning of time. A corrupted body of death that will die is all the evidence we need to understand we are under His wrath all the days of our lives. .. It increased because of the reformation (Jacobs time of trouble) no Jewish flesh to relate with. Christ cut then off as a outward representation ..... the beginning of the end of days ...ending on the last day. A new incorruptible body for those who walk by faith, and judgement day for those who do not have the Spirit of Christ dwelling in them eternally. (they must walk by sight after the natural course of this world .

The whole work will be finished in the twinkling of the eye. .Six times in the book of John Christ uses the last day to represent the one action . There is no condemnation to those in Christ of Christ there will be no double jeopardy. Christ has already stood in the judgment seat of Christ.

The Jews declared Him guilty. Condemning those who know not Christ and bringing the goal of our faith, a new body. One work of one faith , the faith of God. .

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Again, what does Jesus say?

[SUP]22 [/SUP]For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled...

Ask yourself, when were the days of vengeance? Was there vengeance against those people in 70 AD? If so, where is future vengeance against the whole planet discussed? It isn't.

Jesus' presence (parousia) in fact returned in the first century, just as He said it would and just as history records it did. Now sure, He could return a third time, but nothing says He does. All things written were fulfilled!!!!

So what you are saying is that Christ has already returned? All things written in Daniel were fulfilled? From what I understand, Jesus presence in the gospels, in the first century, was his "first" coming. Has he stood again on the mount of Olives with his saints? (Zechariah 14) There is forgiveness of sins but is there an end of sins? Are we living in everlasting righteousness? (Daniel 9) And another thing - "There shall not be left ONE stone upon another that shall not be thrown down". Is not the western wall of the temple still standing?

Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the [SUP][a][/SUP]coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, [SUP]2 [/SUP]that you not be quickly shaken from your [SUP][b][/SUP]composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a [SUP][c][/SUP]message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the [SUP][d][/SUP]apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,[SUP]4 [/SUP]who opposes and exalts himself above [SUP][e][/SUP]every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

 

[Locutus]

"There shall not be left ONE stone upon another that shall not be thrown down". Is not the western wall of the temple still standing?.

So are you saying that in the future some one is going to demolish that wall so that prophecy will be fulfilled?

 

[Snoozy]

the western wall is actually part of a roman fortification. the real temple was in the old city of david. some archeologist are saying this. u can ask big uce VCO for more information he has an article about it on this website.

put to search "third temple news" in this website

 

[peacefulbeliever]

So are you saying that in the future some one is going to demolish that wall so that prophecy will be fulfilled?

I'm not saying anything except that I believe when Jesus said "not one stone" he meant not one stone . . . If you guys want to believe we are living in the Kingdom now . . . go far it! I just believe that it will be a much better place than it is NOW.

I admit that I'm not that great at History . . . it is one area that I really need to work on. But together with "not one stone left"; the disciples were asking him for the sign of his coming, AND of the end of the world. (age). Now, none of those things happened when Jesus was born; i.e. his first coming. So, it can't be talking about his first coming . . . and if it is connected with the wrath of God - then these verses are speaking about Jesus second coming ----

 

[peacefulbeliever]

the western wall is actually part of a roman fortification. the real temple was in the old city of david. some archeologist are saying this. u can ask big uce VCO for more information he has an article about it on this website.

put to search "third temple news" in this website

As I said Snoozy - I am lacking when it comes to History but I searched out "pictures of the destroyed temple in Jerusalem" and then "current pictures of the destroyed temple in Jerusalem". The picture was one of many that came up - and from what I could tell there were stones still "one upon another" in other pictures.

What website - this one? CC? I'd rather not get my information totally from this website - Thanks tho'.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

So are you saying that in the future some one is going to demolish that wall so that prophecy will be fulfilled?

Out of the questions that I asked you chose to answer with a question? Why is that? Just wondering . . .

 

[Willie-T]

Hummm. Kingdom of Heaven and Kingdom of God. Two different words. Must be two different places.

God and Jehovah. Probably two different people.

 

[Willie-T]

I'm pretty sure the Western Wall of Jerusalem, the holiest Jewish site in the world and a renowned symbol of Jerusalem's Old City, is a remnant of the retaining wall built by Herod the Great in the 1st century BC, to encompass the Second Temple enclosure. It was not a part of the Temple building.

Do you know why there was not one stone left upon another in the actual Temple?

 

[shrume]

Hummm. Kingdom of Heaven and Kingdom of God. Two different words. Must be two different places.

God and Jehovah. Probably two different people.

A fuller list of names for the kingdom:

The kingdom of God (Mark 1:15).
The kingdom of heaven (Matt. 4:17).
Your [God’s] kingdom (Matt. 6:10).
The kingdom of their Father (Matt. 13:43; “their” being the righteous who will live there).
The kingdom of our father David (Mark 11:10).
My kingdom (Luke 22:30; spoken by Jesus who will be King).
Paradise (Luke 23:43; 2 Cor. 12:4; Rev. 2:7).
The kingdom of Christ and of God (Eph. 5:5).
The kingdom of the Son He loves (Col. 1:13).
His heavenly kingdom (2 Tim. 4:18).

All are names for the same thing, the coming Kingdom.

 

[Locutus]

I'm pretty sure the Western Wall of Jerusalem, the holiest Jewish site in the world and a renowned symbol of Jerusalem's Old City, is a remnant of the retaining wall built by Herod the Great in the 1st century BC, to encompass the Second Temple enclosure. It was not a part of the Temple building.

Do you know why there was not one stone left upon another in the actual Temple?

I dunno Willie - like me dog I'm all ears..

 

[peacefulbeliever]

I'm pretty sure the Western Wall of Jerusalem, the holiest Jewish site in the world and a renowned symbol of Jerusalem's Old City, is a remnant of the retaining wall built by Herod the Great in the 1st century BC, to encompass the Second Temple enclosure. It was not a part of the Temple building.

Do you know why there was not one stone left upon another in the actual Temple?

Thank you Willie for this information. So, this phrase: "to shew him the buildings of the temple" (Matt. 24:1); "Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here! (Mark 13:1); - just referred to the temple itself and not anything surrounding it? . . .

I am not debating if the temple was destroyed or not . . . I am just trying to get a better understanding because I can see where this part of scripture could be fulfilled but as for the list of signs preceding Christ's coming - I believe they are yet to come - for they are signs of "his coming and of the end of the world".

 

[Locutus]

Out of the questions that I asked you chose to answer with a question? Why is that? Just wondering . . .

If you can't figure out "not one stone" how am I going to explain the other questions you asked that take a fair bit more understanding?

 

[peacefulbeliever]

If you can't figure out "not one stone" how am I going to explain the other questions you asked that take a fair bit more understanding?

It is perfectly fine . . . I know that you really just don't want to answer the other questions which were posed first. And I will go ahead and repeat this - I am not debating if the temple was destroyed or not . . . I am just trying to get a better understanding because I can see where this part of scripture could be fulfilled but as for the list of signs preceding Christ's coming - I believe they are yet to come - for they are signs of "his coming and of the end of the world". Those are the questions you chose not to answer.

All is good. . . . [SUB][SUP]
[/SUP][/SUB]

 

[Locutus]

It is perfectly fine . . . I know that you really just don't want to answer the other questions which were posed first. And I will go ahead and repeat this - I am not debating if the temple was destroyed or not . . . I am just trying to get a better understanding because I can see where this part of scripture could be fulfilled but as for the list of signs preceding Christ's coming - I believe they are yet to come - for they are signs of "his coming and of the end of the world". Those are the questions you chose not to answer.

All is good. . . .

I find it's best to answer the simpler issues first rather than those that are more involved.

So you are not debating about "not one stone" , so are you in agreement with that the "not one stone" prophecy is fulfilled and not awaiting a future fulfillment?

 

[Snoozy]

stop all the preterist heresies at once

 

[Locutus]

You just need to cut back on the snoozing Mr. Dwarf.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

I find it's best to answer the simpler issues first rather than those that are more involved.

So you are not debating about "not one stone" , so are you in agreement with that the "not one stone" prophecy is fulfilled and not awaiting a future fulfillment?

I believe I said - "I am just trying to get a better understanding because I can see where this part of scripture could be fulfilled but as for the list of signs preceding Christ's coming - I believe they are yet to come" . . . .

I will break it down further - Could it be a partial fulfillment of - the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?

For example: part of this prophecy was fulfilled - Just as Isaiah 61:1,2a - The Spirit of the LORD is upon me; because the LORD has anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; to proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD and the day of vengeance of our God; . . . Luke 4:18 - The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, to preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book . . . because the second part of the prophecy was yet to be fulfilled.

And in further reading of Matthew 24 . . . Jesus further expounds that "all these things must come to pass but the end is not yet" . . . The end of what? The end of the world (age).

 

[PlainWord]

pfb,

Sorry for the very late reply. I've been busy. I know others have addressed some of this but let me add my 2 cents because I've studied the heck out of this...

So what you are saying is that Christ has already returned? All things written in Daniel were fulfilled? From what I understand, Jesus presence in the gospels, in the first century, was his "first" coming. Has he stood again on the mount of Olives with his saints? (Zechariah 14) There is forgiveness of sins but is there an end of sins? Are we living in everlasting righteousness? (Daniel 9) And another thing - "There shall not be left ONE stone upon another that shall not be thrown down". Is not the western wall of the temple still standing?

The western (or Wailing Wall) was actually part of the old Roman fortress Antonia. According to Josephus, the entire city of Jerusalem was destroyed with every stone of the entire city removed, thus fulfilling Lk 19:44. I realize Jesus only mentions the temple in Mt 24:2 because the temple was the topic. However, in Lk 19 He says this:

[SUP]44 [/SUP]and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

This punishment was executed in their day specifically because they did not recognize their Messiah even though Daniel gave them the calendar to know. Not only did they not recognize Him, they tortured and killed Him. This is why God destroyed them, in their day, in their generation, just as Jesus said it would happen.

Now according to Josephus, who was there and saw with his own eyes, only 3 Roman towers remained after the whole city of Jerusalem was destroyed, stone-by-stone. They were for the garrison, which remained, but also as a show of victory. The irony is, the Jews there today at the Wall, are praying to and calling "holy" the wall of the Roman fortress which defeated them. They are giving homage to their defeat and not their temple. God must be laughing. It's so sad, really. I've been there several times and my heart goes out to them because they still do not know, yet they pray so feverishly.

Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the [SUP][a][/SUP]coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, [SUP]2 [/SUP]that you not be quickly shaken from your [SUP][b][/SUP]composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a [SUP][c][/SUP]message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the [SUP][d][/SUP]apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,[SUP]4 [/SUP]who opposes and exalts himself above [SUP][e][/SUP]every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

Who did Paul write his second letter to the Thessalonians to? Did he write it to them around 53 AD, or did he write it to a generation some 2,000+ years later that had no connection to the events of his day? Which audience was on Paul's mind? One of the biggest problems with the futurist view is what I call, "audience integrity." You must maintain audience integrity or you will go astray.

...we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ

Paul was speaking them just as I am speaking to you PFB, not a group 2,000 years into our future. The presence (parousia) of Christ returned in their day to execute wrath on those wicked Jews, including those in Thessaloniki who returned to Jerusalem for Passover of 66 AD and were trapped there to endure, and be killed in, the great tribulation.

The Man of Sin, the Lawless One, the Son of Perdition, etc which came before the parousia of Christ, was Titus who Daniel called, "the Prince to come." Titus was exulted above everything called God. Titus was worshiped in the Temple by his troops. Titus was declared "imperator" (an absolute or supreme ruler) by his men who were carrying the ensigns of Rome. Titus took a prostitute into the Holy of Holies and committed a "sin" on the alter. Titus reportedly challenged GOd to fight him after He destroyed God's house.

Sister, if you know history, you know that Caesars were worshiped as gods. Anyone refusing to acknowledge Caesar as the supreme god was put to death. The religious leaders of that day swore an allegiance to Caesar (against Jesus). Titus ordered every single priest to be put to death after the Temple fell. They were loyal to Rome, but still he killed them all.

 

[PlainWord]

I believe I said - "I am just trying to get a better understanding because I can see where this part of scripture could be fulfilled but as for the list of signs preceding Christ's coming - I believe they are yet to come" . . . .

I will break it down further - Could it be a partial fulfillment of - the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?

For example: part of this prophecy was fulfilled - Just as Isaiah 61:1,2a - The Spirit of the LORD is upon me; because the LORD has anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; to proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD and the day of vengeance of our God; . . . Luke 4:18 - The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, to preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book . . . because the second part of the prophecy was yet to be fulfilled.

And in further reading of Matthew 24 . . . Jesus further expounds that "all these things must come to pass but the end is not yet" . . . The end of what? The end of the world (age).

It's the end of the age, their age, not the world. The return of Christ was the return of His presence in the spiritual sense. It was His "Presence" that was to come back, not Him in the person like a man. Everyone saw because He appeared as a very bright light, lighting up the night. Everyone was "blinded" and knelt, including those who pierced Him, because they were there too. The Roman soldiers who pierced Him had to be among the Roman troops which surrounded the city but by this time they would have been in their 50s or early 60s.

Look at the actual text of the disciple's question. They were asking for the signs leading up to the return of His presence!!



Why do you suppose they wanted the signs? It's so they would recognize when His presence returned. If it was He, as a man as they knew Him, they wouldn't be worried about recognizing Him.



All of this prophesy you cite was fulfilled. The "rapture" was a spiritual gathering of all living believers into the new kingdom meeting with all those who had died and were now spiritually resurrected, their souls no longer captive in Hades.

Again, maintain audience integrity. This is what Paul told the Church of the Thessalonians just a few verses before the main "so-called Rapture" passage.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

See? There were going to witness this.

Paul tells them this in 2 Thes 1:

[SUP]6 [/SUP]since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, [SUP]7 [/SUP]and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels

The tribulation Paul spoke of applied to those wicked Jews in Thessalonica (See Acts 17) who were persecuting the church there. These Jews all returned to Jerusalem as was their custom for the Passover, and thus trapped and killed. It was these Thessalonians who were experiencing trouble and who were to get rest with Paul. Paul apparently knew he wouldn't be alive to experience it but would be among those resurrected who were first, ahead of those alive.