Is The Mosaic Law Beneficial For Those Who Have Faith?

WomanLovesTX · Jul 26, 2013

Here is the scripture with the strongs numbers: Gen 26:5 BecauseH6118 thatH834 AbrahamH85 obeyedH8085 my voice,H6963 and keptH8104 my charge,H4931 my commandments,H4687 my statutes,H2708 and my laws.H8451

Abraham obeyed my voice. Please notice this is God speaking.

Abraham kept my charge. Strong #H4931 = guard, charge, function, obligation, service, watch

Abraham kept my commandments. Strong #H4687 = mitzvah = 1) commandment
1a) commandment (of man)
1b) the commandment (of God)
1c) commandment (of code of wisdom)

Abraham kept my statutes. Strong #H2708 = chuqquah = statute, ordinance, limit, enactment, something prescribed

Abraham kept my laws. Strong #8451 - Torah = law, direction, instruction

You asked what law Abraham obeyed? Just looking at the word Torah in the Old Testament there are 213 references (KJV)(Strong's #H8451)

Exo_12:49; Exo_13:9; Exo_16:4; Exo_16:28; Exo_18:16; Exo_18:20; Exo_24:12; Lev_6:9; Lev_6:14; Lev_6:25; Lev_7:1; Lev_7:7; Lev_7:11; Lev_7:37; Lev_11:46; Lev_12:7; Lev_13:59; Lev_14:2; Lev_14:32; Lev_14:54; Lev_14:57; Lev_15:32; Lev_26:46; Num_5:29; Num_5:30; Num_6:13; Num_6:21; Num_15:16; Num_15:29; Num_19:2; Num_19:14; Num_31:21; Deu_1:5; Deu_4:8; Deu_4:44; Deu_17:11; Deu_17:18; Deu_17:19; Deu_27:3; Deu_27:8; Deu_27:26; Deu_28:58; Deu_28:61; Deu_29:21; Deu_29:29; Deu_30:10; Deu_31:9; Deu_31:11; Deu_31:12; Deu_31:24; Deu_31:26; Deu_32:46; Deu_33:4; Deu_33:10; Jos_1:7; Jos_1:8; Jos_8:31; Jos_8:32; Jos_8:34; Jos_22:5; Jos_23:6; Jos_24:26; 1Ki_2:3; 2Ki_10:31; 2Ki_14:6; 2Ki_17:13; 2Ki_17:34; 2Ki_17:37; 2Ki_21:8; 2Ki_22:8; 2Ki_22:11; 2Ki_23:24; 2Ki_23:25; 1Ch_16:40; 1Ch_22:12; 2Ch_6:16; 2Ch_12:1; 2Ch_14:4; 2Ch_15:3; 2Ch_17:9; 2Ch_19:10; 2Ch_23:18; 2Ch_25:4; 2Ch_30:16; 2Ch_31:3; 2Ch_31:4; 2Ch_31:21; 2Ch_33:8; 2Ch_34:14; 2Ch_34:15; 2Ch_34:19; 2Ch_35:26; Ezr_3:2; Ezr_7:6; Ezr_7:10; Ezr_10:3; Neh_8:1; Neh_8:2; Neh_8:3; Neh_8:7; Neh_8:8; Neh_8:9; Neh_8:13; Neh_8:14; Neh_8:18; Neh_9:3; Neh_9:13; Neh_9:14; Neh_9:26; Neh_9:29; Neh_9:34; Neh_10:28; Neh_10:29; Neh_10:34; Neh_10:36; Neh_12:44; Neh_13:3; Job_22:22; Psa_1:2; Psa_19:7; Psa_37:31; Psa_40:8; Psa_78:1; Psa_78:5; Psa_78:10; Psa_89:30; Psa_94:12; Psa_105:45; Psa_119:1; Psa_119:18; Psa_119:29; Psa_119:34; Psa_119:44; Psa_119:51; Psa_119:53; Psa_119:55; Psa_119:61; Psa_119:70; Psa_119:72; Psa_119:77; Psa_119:85; Psa_119:92; Psa_119:97; Psa_119:109; Psa_119:113; Psa_119:126; Psa_119:136; Psa_119:142; Psa_119:150; Psa_119:153; Psa_119:163; Psa_119:165; Psa_119:174; Pro_1:8; Pro_3:1; Pro_4:2; Pro_6:20; Pro_6:23; Pro_7:2; Pro_13:14; Pro_28:4; Pro_28:7; Pro_28:9; Pro_29:18; Pro_31:26; Isa_1:10; Isa_2:3; Isa_5:24; Isa_8:16; Isa_8:20; Isa_24:5; Isa_30:9; Isa_42:4; Isa_42:21; Isa_42:24; Isa_51:4; Isa_51:7; Jer_2:8; Jer_6:19; Jer_8:8; Jer_9:13; Jer_16:11; Jer_18:18; Jer_26:4; Jer_31:33; Jer_32:23; Jer_44:10; Jer_44:23; Lam_2:9; Eze_7:26; Eze_22:26; Eze_43:11; Eze_43:12; Eze_44:5; Eze_44:24; Dan_9:10; Dan_9:11; Dan_9:13; Hos_4:6; Hos_8:1; Hos_8:12; Amo_2:4; Mic_4:2; Hab_1:4; Zep_3:4; Hag_2:11; Zec_7:12; Mal_2:6; Mal_2:7; Mal_2:8; Mal_2:9; Mal_4:4;

For the New Testament, the word "Law" is Strong's # G3551 nomos - From a primary word νέμω nemō (to parcel out, especially food or grazing to animals); law (through the idea of prescriptive usage), generally (regulation), specifically (of Moses [including the volume]; also of the Gospel), or figuratively (a principle): - law.

There is 197 uses (KJV) of HG3551:

Mat_5:17; Mat_5:18; Mat_7:12; Mat_11:13; Mat_12:5; Mat_22:36; Mat_22:40; Mat_23:23; Luk_2:22; Luk_2:23; Luk_2:24; Luk_2:27; Luk_2:39; Luk_10:26; Luk_16:16; Luk_16:17; Luk_24:44; Joh_1:17; Joh_1:45; Joh_7:19; Joh_7:23; Joh_7:49; Joh_7:51; Joh_8:5; Joh_8:17; Joh_10:34; Joh_12:34; Joh_15:25; Joh_18:31; Joh_19:7; Act_6:13; Act_7:53; Act_13:15; Act_13:39; Act_15:5; Act_15:24; Act_18:13; Act_18:15; Act_21:20; Act_21:24; Act_21:28; Act_22:3; Act_22:12; Act_23:3; Act_23:29; Act_24:6; Act_24:14; Act_25:8; Act_28:23; Rom_2:12; Rom_2:13; Rom_2:14; Rom_2:15; Rom_2:17; Rom_2:18; Rom_2:20; Rom_2:23; Rom_2:25; Rom_2:26; Rom_2:27; Rom_3:19; Rom_3:20; Rom_3:21; Rom_3:27; Rom_3:28; Rom_3:31; Rom_4:13; Rom_4:14; Rom_4:15; Rom_4:16; Rom_5:13; Rom_5:20; Rom_6:14; Rom_6:15; Rom_7:1; Rom_7:2; Rom_7:3; Rom_7:4; Rom_7:5; Rom_7:6; Rom_7:7; Rom_7:8; Rom_7:9; Rom_7:12; Rom_7:14; Rom_7:16; Rom_7:21; Rom_7:22; Rom_7:23; Rom_7:25; Rom_8:2; Rom_8:3; Rom_8:4; Rom_8:7; Rom_9:31; Rom_9:32; Rom_10:4; Rom_10:5; Rom_13:8; Rom_13:10; 1Co_7:39; 1Co_9:8; 1Co_9:9; 1Co_9:20; 1Co_14:21; 1Co_14:34; 1Co_15:56; Gal_2:16; Gal_2:19; Gal_2:21; Gal_3:2; Gal_3:5; Gal_3:10; Gal_3:11; Gal_3:12; Gal_3:13; Gal_3:17; Gal_3:18; Gal_3:19; Gal_3:21; Gal_3:23; Gal_3:24; Gal_4:4; Gal_4:5; Gal_4:21; Gal_5:3; Gal_5:4; Gal_5:14; Gal_5:18; Gal_5:23; Gal_6:2; Gal_6:13; Eph_2:15; Php_3:5; Php_3:6; Php_3:9; 1Ti_1:8; 1Ti_1:9; Heb_7:5; Heb_7:12; Heb_7:16; Heb_7:19; Heb_7:28; Heb_8:4; Heb_8:10; Heb_9:19; Heb_9:22; Heb_10:1; Heb_10:8; Heb_10:16; Heb_10:28; Jas_1:25; Jas_2:8; Jas_2:9; Jas_2:10; Jas_2:11; Jas_2:12; Jas_4:11;

Here is just from the book of James regarding Torah utilizing Complete Jewish Bible:

(Jas 1:25) But if a person looks closely into the perfect Torah, which gives freedom, and continues, becoming not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work it requires, then he will be blessed in what he does.

(Jas 2:8) If you truly attain the goal of Kingdom Torah, in conformity with the passage that says, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing well.

(Jas 2:9) But if you show favoritism, your actions constitute sin, since you are convicted under the Torah as transgressors.

(Jas 2:10) For a person who keeps the whole Torah, yet stumbles at one point, has become guilty of breaking them all.

(Jas 2:11) For the One who said, "Don't commit adultery," also said, "Don't murder." Now, if you don't commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the Torah.

(Jas 2:12) Keep speaking and acting like people who will be judged by a Torah which gives freedom.

(Jas 4:11) Brothers, stop speaking against each other! Whoever speaks against a brother or judges a brother is speaking against Torah and judging Torah. And if you judge Torah, you are not a doer of what Torah says, but a judge.

(Jas 4:12) There is but one Giver of Torah; he is also the Judge, with the power to deliver and to destroy. Who do you think you are, judging your fellow human being?

Also using the Greek Septuagint with Strong's #G3551, there are 232 references in the Old Testament. They are:
Exo_12:43; Exo_12:49; Exo_13:9; Exo_13:10; Exo_16:4; Exo_16:28; Exo_18:16; Exo_18:20; Exo_24:12; Lev_6:9; Lev_6:14; Lev_6:22; Lev_6:25; Lev_7:1; Lev_7:7; Lev_7:11; Lev_7:37; Lev_11:46; Lev_12:7; Lev_13:59; Lev_14:2; Lev_14:32; Lev_14:54; Lev_14:57; Lev_15:3; Lev_15:32; Lev_19:19; Lev_19:37; Lev_26:46; Num_5:29; Num_5:30; Num_6:13; Num_6:21; Num_9:3; Num_9:12; Num_9:14; Num_15:15; Num_15:16; Num_15:29; Num_19:2; Num_19:14; Num_31:21; Deu_1:5; Deu_4:8; Deu_4:44; Deu_17:11; Deu_24:8; Deu_27:3; Deu_27:8; Deu_27:26; Deu_28:58; Deu_28:61; Deu_29:20; Deu_29:21; Deu_29:27; Deu_29:29; Deu_30:10; Deu_31:9; Deu_31:11; Deu_31:12; Deu_31:24; Deu_31:26; Deu_32:44; Deu_32:46; Deu_33:4; Deu_33:10; Jos_1:8; Jos_8:31; Jos_8:32; Jos_8:34; Jos_22:5; Jos_23:6; Jos_24:25; Jos_24:26; 2Sa_7:19; 1Ki_2:3; 2Ki_10:31; 2Ki_14:6; 2Ki_17:13; 2Ki_17:34; 2Ki_17:37; 2Ki_22:8; 2Ki_22:11; 2Ki_23:24; 2Ki_23:25; 1Ch_16:40; 1Ch_22:12; 2Ch_6:16; 2Ch_14:4; 2Ch_15:3; 2Ch_17:9; 2Ch_23:18; 2Ch_25:4; 2Ch_31:3; 2Ch_31:21; 2Ch_33:8; 2Ch_34:14; 2Ch_34:15; 2Ch_34:19; 2Ch_35:19; 2Ch_35:26; Ezr_3:2; Ezr_7:6; Ezr_7:10; Ezr_7:12; Ezr_7:14; Ezr_7:21; Ezr_7:25; Ezr_7:26; Ezr_10:3; Neh_8:1; Neh_8:2; Neh_8:3; Neh_8:7; Neh_8:8; Neh_8:9; Neh_8:13; Neh_8:14; Neh_8:18; Neh_9:3; Neh_9:13; Neh_9:14; Neh_9:26; Neh_9:29; Neh_9:34; Neh_10:28; Neh_10:29; Neh_10:34; Neh_10:36; Neh_13:3; Est_1:8; Est_1:13; Est_1:15; Est_1:19; Est_1:20; Est_3:8; Est_4:16; Est_8:11; Job_34:27; Psa_1:2; Psa_19:7; Psa_37:31; Psa_40:8; Psa_78:1; Psa_78:5; Psa_78:10; Psa_89:30; Psa_94:12; Psa_105:45; Psa_119:1; Psa_119:18; Psa_119:29; Psa_119:34; Psa_119:44; Psa_119:51; Psa_119:53; Psa_119:55; Psa_119:57; Psa_119:61; Psa_119:70; Psa_119:72; Psa_119:77; Psa_119:85; Psa_119:92; Psa_119:97; Psa_119:109; Psa_119:113; Psa_119:126; Psa_119:136; Psa_119:142; Psa_119:150; Psa_119:153; Psa_119:163; Psa_119:165; Psa_119:174; Psa_130:5; Pro_3:16; Pro_4:2; Pro_6:20; Pro_6:23; Pro_9:10; Pro_13:14; Pro_13:15; Pro_28:4; Pro_28:7; Pro_28:9; Pro_29:18; Isa_1:10; Isa_2:3; Isa_5:24; Isa_8:16; Isa_8:20; Isa_19:2; Isa_24:5; Isa_24:16; Isa_30:9; Isa_33:6; Isa_42:24; Isa_51:4; Isa_51:7; Jer_2:8; Jer_6:19; Jer_8:8; Jer_9:13; Jer_16:11; Jer_18:18; Jer_23:27; Jer_31:33; Jer_31:37; Jer_44:23; Jer_49:12; Lam_2:9; Eze_7:26; Eze_22:26; Dan_7:25; Dan_9:10; Dan_9:11; Dan_9:13; Hos_4:6; Hos_8:1; Amo_2:4; Amo_4:5; Mic_4:2; Hab_1:4; Zep_3:4; Hag_2:11; Zec_7:12; Mal_2:6; Mal_2:7; Mal_2:8; Mal_2:9; Mal_4:4;

I hope this helps to see the full continuity of the Word, both Old and New Covenenant that God's laws/commandments written in the Pentateuch (Torah - 1st five books of OT) are the same laws and commandments Jesus and the disciples are also upholding (ie not done away with). Many have misunderstood Paul and will quote him as though he is saying the law is not to be obeyed. I have many lessons on the Pauline Paradox if interested.

brmicke · Jul 26, 2013

If all the commandments in the Law and Prophets = Love for God and neighbor as Jesus said.

Why do people some say that they can never keep it? When the Bible clearly says in Deut 30:11 that people can obey the commandments of God. Why do they say that they sin (or break the law) daily?

This is an excuse so they don't have to keep trying to abstain from ungodliness, and not sin. After all abstaining from ungodliness is hard, and makes the sinner feel bad. They feel condemned by the Law so they discredit it. They say no one can keep it because they don't want to. They always resist the grace of God which teaches them to abstain from ungodliness.

There can be no other reason. The bible clearly says that people should not sin or break God's law. You confess that you sin every day. Well stop it - don't make peace with it. No wonder you can't understand what the Bible says about this.

Sin is transgression of the Law -so it would be a good idea to at least try and keep the law.

Jesus said go and sin no more, at the root of your concept of the Law is the idea that you really don't want to stop sinning. There are some sins you want to hold onto. There are some unloving attitudes towards God and your neighbor that you want to retain.

So you convince yourselves and others (to your own shame) that it is not possible to abstain from ungodliness (or not sin).

Brian

homwardbound · Jul 27, 2013

just-me said:

Then answer these forgiven scriptures that state forgiven
Romans 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
1 Corinthians 1:30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption—
Ephesians 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
Colossians 1:14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins
Hebrews 9:12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption
Hebrews 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Romans 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Colossians 1:19 [ Reconciled in Christ ] For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,
Colossians 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled

Romans 5:11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation
2 Corinthians 5:18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation
2 Corinthians 5:19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

These are all forgiven passages: and there is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood

Hebrews 9:22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.

[h=3]1 John 2[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

2 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Hebrews 7:27
who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

Hebrews 9:12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption

Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 8:34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died;
1 Thessalonians 5:10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
[h=3]Colossians 1:22[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]22 [/SUP]in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight
1 Thessalonians 3:13
so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

All in love from God to you, by Christ has made you forever perfect in Father, by belief in his finished work at the cross for you personally along with the whole world
God did it all, and God gets all the credit and all my thanks and praise fro his doing not mine.
I trust God to do through me what I never could do and that is love all the same
Thanks

brmicke · Jul 27, 2013

Hi - I think we are running out of steam. If you could please tell me in a very concise short posting how you think we differ in our thinking on this subject.

In Your opinion - What is my problem?

I think that you resist the condemnation that is in the law because the law can only condemn and God has accepted you in Christ and there is now no condemnation to those what are in Christ Jesus.

The law led you to Christ, and now I think you feel that asking for forgiveness anymore is wrong because the law did it's work and you are in Christ and you were forgiven when you accepted Christ. You see asking for forgiveness over and over again as crucifying Christ over and over again.

You were made perfect forever and even though you don't actually see that perfection yet, you know by faith, that after you die God will transform you to be like Jesus and then you will possess it literally.

You are continually attempting to be dead to self and alive towards God.

These your opinions as I understand them?

Brian

just-me · Jul 27, 2013

homwardbound said:

Exodus 6:6-7 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.
Psalm 103:2-5 (KJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies;
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's.
Job 19:24-25 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP]That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!
[SUP]25 [/SUP]For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

Completed in and through Jesus Christ

homwardbound said:

To reconcile is to bring two together in agreement it can be closely related to mediation.

Galatians 3:19-21 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

Without the law there would be nothing identified to reconcile or to mediate

Leviticus 6:30 (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And no sin offering, whereof any of the blood is brought into the tabernacle of the congregation to reconcile withal in the holy place, shall be eaten: it shall be burnt in the fire.

Without the shedding of blood there will be total destruction.

homwardbound said:

Leviticus 16:11-14 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And Aaron shall bring the bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and shall make an atonement for himself, and for his house, and shall kill the bullock of the sin offering which is for himself:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And he shall take a censer full of burning coals of fire from off the altar before the LORD, and his hands full of sweet incense beaten small, and bring it within the vail:
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And he shall put the incense upon the fire before the LORD, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that is upon the testimony, that he die not:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And he shall take of the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it with his finger upon the mercy seat eastward; and before the mercy seat shall he sprinkle of the blood with his finger seven times.
Leviticus 1:5 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And he shall kill the bullock before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

Jesus fulfilled (mediated) both of these sacrifices on the cross. The reason it is not done anymore is that we have a High Priest that is alive forever.

Hebrews 7:1-3 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
[SUP]2 [/SUP]To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

I think I have explained the following scriptures that you presented with the previous scriptures that I have given with explanations accordingly.

homwardbound said:

If you think for a minute that I would have issue with all the scriptures that you have presented here, I would ask you to reconnoiter your thoughts. Just because a person admires the law doesn’t mean they are denying the grace given through Jesus Christ. On the contrary, through the Mosaic Law they have a greater appreciation for our Messiah, Lord and Savior Yeshuah the true Christ. Without the indwelling Spirit of God, one will never see the true purpose of the beauty found in the Mosaic Law. I would ask you to open up your heart with a Spirit of understanding and study that which our Lord Jesus Christ has completed.

Numbers 21:7-9 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

John 3:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

Grandpa · Jul 27, 2013

just-me said:

God didn't issue sin toward you. He gave transgressors a mirror. He then gives transgressors His Son as their only remedy.

The mirror is not the remedy. The mirror shows you your lack.

There is no lack in the Lord Jesus Christ and therefore no condemnation.

Grandpa · Jul 27, 2013

WomanLovesTX said:

The law is supposed to bring you to faith in Christ. After that faith is come you are no longer under that schoolmaster.

Holy Spirit leading and obedience is the sign of God which we serve and Love.

Going back to the Law is for people who don't have faith that Christ works all the work of Holiness and Righteousness in their lives. They must either never have come to a saving Faith in the Knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ or they were bewitched somehow with their own work and their own righteousness...

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Grandpa · Jul 27, 2013

brmicke said:

You have a sin problem. You have been condemned by this sin problem. You want everyone to be equally condemned by their sin problem.

That would be fine. Except that there is now a REMEDY for your sin and condemnation. It isn't the Law, as you've pointed out. Its the Lord Jesus Christ.

Matthew 11:28-30
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

just-me · Jul 27, 2013

brmicke said:

Good comment. I think where the discrepancy of thoughts comes in is that some are saying they never have to pray for forgiveness anymore because they are forgiven for their past sins. Where the difference comes in is not recognizing that we still have sins that we have not recognized in the past. With that said, if we study the law (not the levitical part but the moral part) concerning the love for your neighbor, we will be able to identify that which we haven't recognized in the past. This shows us the patience and grace of our God toward us.
Even with the knowledge of what sin is, and knowing even after salvation is given, we know we have a battle on our hands as Paul wrote about Himself. If we study the law and the prophets, to identify these things about ourselves, we will see that grace through Christ Jesus in a much more profound way.

Galatians 3:19 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
This verse is interpreted in different ways, depending on how people believe.
I think that some don’t recognize that sin, in the sight of God, happened before the law. If sin cannot be recognized by the law, there would be nothing to forgive. If we think there is nothing more to forgive there is nothing to fulfill, for the law wouldn’t be necessary anymore. So to summarize, some think because of this, the law is obsolete. But if there is no law for today, then we say, untruthfully, that there is no more sin. And if there is no more sin, there is no more need for sacrifice either, and that puts our Lord and Savior at our born again date of the past, and not in the present.
1 John 1:8-10 (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
This passage covers past and present. I know later on, he says;

1 John 3:4-6 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
This shows the battle between the Holy Spirit, and the fleshly state of iniquity we all face within ourselves every moment.

Numbers 32:23 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But if ye will not do so, behold, ye have sinned against the LORD: and be sure your sin will find you out.

just-me · Jul 27, 2013

Grandpa said:

James 1:23-25 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

I agree that the law is not sin, or only just condemnation. I had a thought that I would like to share with all who are reading these posts.

Temple worship of the Old Testament.......... Rhetorical question, not directed toward anyone in particular.

So did God set on the mercy seat and watch the law process He gave for sacrifice and say, “I really like watching the condemnation I gave to my children”?

just-me · Jul 27, 2013

Grandpa said:

I think that those of us say that there are good things in the Mosaic law are labeled as wanting to go back to the law as it was before Christ death. Not true.

I have never heard any one who admires the Mosaic Law say anything close to that while conversing on these threads. The insinuations come from people who say that others want to be under the law in the flesh just because it is enlightening for a greater understanding of the salvation of Jesus Christ.

Does anyone really think that when a person looks at the Mosaic Law, and relates it to Jesus Christ, they can’t see clearly the Law of liberty?

homwardbound · Jul 27, 2013

brmicke said:

Tell me how can one, anyone truly Love God from self?
Is not this truer that we love God because God first loved us? So the deeper one sees the Love of God to them, won't one love deeper back as a response of thanking God for this?
Is not trying to love God as one of the greatest commandments a self effort, like being an imitator of being like Christ was here on earth?
What is better to be an imitator or a participator? For I know I have no righteousness of my own ever, before saved or after saved, none of my own ever.
I do have righteousness though, and it is not mine it is God's, and I am no more than a participator in this, thanking God for this amazingly great salvation where I did nothing for it, except changed my mind from unbelief to belief in the finished work of Christ, via the cross that includes the resurrected Christ.

Grandpa · Jul 27, 2013

just-me said:

Galatians 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Until The Seed Should Come to Whom the Promise was Made.

Galatians 3:16 [SUP] [/SUP]Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Is a person under the Law for their whole lives? Some are. And as you are showing it appears to be a "free-will" decision.

Galatians:24-26
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. [SUP]25 [/SUP]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

And some have come to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Close. Without sin there would be nothing to reconcile. The strength of sin is the Law...

The Lord Jesus FOREVER ATONES FOR ALL SIN BY HIS BLOOD.

How is it applied in our Lives? By Faith...

Numbers 21:9 [SUP] [/SUP]And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

John 3:14-15
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Interesting... Haven't I been saying this all along? Behold the Lord Jesus. In Him is our Salvation and Strength. In Him is our Life.

Let us lay aside every weight and the sin that so easily besets us. How? By our effort? Nope. By Beholding the Lord Jesus Christ.

Matthew 11:28-30
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

homwardbound · Jul 27, 2013

brmicke said:

What did Paul die daily to, self, or God?
If Paul died daily to God then Paul would not be alive to God
If Paul died daily to flesh (self) then Paul would be alive to God
Please read Rom. 6:1-11
See where Paul says in verse 11 to oneself dead to sin, which is the same as dead to flesh. Paul repeats this over and over again in many different ways, to count oneself dead to sinful flesh.
I myself for years, just did not see it either for years, being so busy trying to be good, I missed what Paul was saying all together.
Reconciliation, redemption, redeemed, are all the same meaning, we are forguiven.
What is the message given to the apostles
2 Corinthians 5:18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
2 Corinthians 5:19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Romans 5:11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Romans 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Ephesians 1:3 [ Redemption in Christ ] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
Ephesians 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
Ephesians 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
Colossians 1:14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
Hebrews 9:12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
Hebrews 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Grandpa · Jul 27, 2013

just-me said:

The Law of Liberty isn't beheld by looking back at the Mosaic Law.

The Law of Liberty is beheld by Looking to the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Those who are bit by the Serpent receive Life how? By beholding the Strength of that Bite? Nope... By Beholding the Lord Jesus are people saved by this Bite of the Serpent.

Are you bitten by this serpent from time to time? Sure. Lets be real. So what is the Cure, each time every time??????? Its not studying the serpent and his power over men... We all know all about that when we come to Christ. What we don't know and what we are mostly not taught is the Power of the Lord Jesus Christ.

homwardbound · Jul 27, 2013

just-me said:

I do appreciate you, and you see what you see and the serpent was the forth coming of Christ's coming.
There is a before and an after the cross.
I am on this side of the cross, having crossed over the picket line and received God's love through the cross and today trust in God to live his resurrected Son's life through me, via by the resurrected Christ. I am no longer like a wave tossed to and fro.
I love and so do you as you say you do. We all have free choice and I have made my decision to trust God all the time and to be dead to self flesh and alive to God in the Spirit of God, which is what holds me alive as what is the same for all born again believers.
Again the Law of Moses is just, true, perfect and correct, and if you see to see this and if you are perfect at it, then by all means have at it.
I just came to the end of the energy of my own flesh, and waved my white flag giving up to what the world calls the enemy, which is the one and only true God, and have crossed over the picket line, no longer in a fight to be saved and am at rest, while God performs God's love through me to all, whether they believe God or not
All in Love to you, and see you on God's golden shore.
God plain and simply just love us all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is why the Son came to redeem us in the Spirit not the flesh. So today it is up to us by free choice to God to ask for God to show us the difference between flesh and God's Spirit.
What do you think the Holy Spirit with fire is for? Could it be to ask God to turn on the fire and burn out all our dross, here and now, being born again.
Now I know for a fact that God won't turn on this fire and burn out the dross in our flesh, here and now unless we ask God, because of free Choice.
So you have made your choice as I have as well, so be it. Love you deeper than you might know. For I know God loves all the same, not one person is better than another coming from God's viewpoint.

Grandpa · Jul 27, 2013

homwardbound said:

I do appreciate you, and you see what you see and the serpent was the forth coming of Christ's coming.
There is a before and an after the cross.
I am on this side of the cross, having crossed over the picket line and received God's love through the cross and today trust in God to live his resurrected Son's life through me, via by the resurrected Christ. I am no longer like a wave tossed to and fro.
I love and so do you as you say you do. We all have free choice and I have made my decision to trust God all the time and to be dead to self flesh and alive to God in the Spirit of God, which is what holds me alive as what is the same for all born again believers.
Again the Law of Moses is just, true, perfect and correct, and if you see to see this and if you are perfect at it, then by all means have at it.
I just came to the end of the energy of my own flesh, and waved my white flag giving up to what the world calls the enemy, which is the one and only true God, and have crossed over the picket line, no longer in a fight to be saved and am at rest, while God performs God's love through me to all, whether they believe God or not
All in Love to you, and see you on God's golden shore.
God plain and simply just love us all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is why the Son came to redeem us in the Spirit not the flesh. So today it is up to us by free choice to God to ask for God to show us the difference between flesh and God's Spirit.
What do you think the Holy Spirit with fire is for? Could it be to ask God to turn on the fire and burn out all our dross, here and now, being born again.
Now I know for a fact that God won't turn on this fire and burn out the dross in our flesh, here and now unless we ask God, because of free Choice.
So you have made your choice as I have as well, so be it. Love you deeper than you might know. For I know God loves all the same, not one person is better than another coming from God's viewpoint.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to homwardbound again.

Well, fine. I guess just good job Homey will have to do... That one deserves more than just a 'like'

homwardbound · Jul 27, 2013

Grandpa said:

Christ by hanging on the tree (cross) condemned the serpent, sin control to flesh
[h=3]Romans 8:3[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]3 [/SUP]For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,

So since all sin is condemned to flesh, does it then not make since to die to flesh and be alive to God's as Paul kept writing of to all he told about this amazing salvation given to us as a gift from God to us all

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 5:7-9 (in Context) Romans 5 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
Romans 8:34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Romans 8:33-35 (in Context) Romans 8 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died;
2 Corinthians 5:13-15 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 5 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

just-me · Jul 27, 2013

Grandpa said:

I put it all together as one big dynamic plan. For if Jesus is the finale of the entire plan, one has to reckon with the FACT that Our Lord was before the beginning, and created all things including the plan of salvation from the beginning. Taking that into account, the plan of salvation was intact before the world was created, and then the plan has to include everything leading up to it. I see Jesus as the entire Word from the very beginning. So when I open the Bible to read, I see Christ in the Mosaic Law also. Not just the New Testament.

John 1:1 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 17:5 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Colossians 1:14-19 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Henceforth, I just described the "Law of Liberty."

just-me · Jul 27, 2013

Grandpa said:

Agree with me and I'll give you a reputation point. LOL!

Is The Mosaic Law Beneficial For Those Who Have Faith?

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