Is The Mosaic Law Beneficial For Those Who Have Faith?

WomanLovesTX · Jul 27, 2013

You are so off base in what you believe about those who obey God by obeying Torah. You make assumptions that are false and thus accuse falsely. My understanding is the whole word of God, the entire Bible, Old and New Testaments are still relevant today. I can no longer believe in dispensations but believe that we are all to be One in the body of Christ. Christ came and taught the true religion of the Torah and railed against the teachers of His day that held fast to traditions of men and doctrines of men, instead of holding fast to the laws of God. We are not to add or take away from the Word. If one's thinking is that Christ says in one place the laws are taken out of the way and in another place says keep my commandments as I have kept my Father's commandments, then the first assumption is in error.

I only recently had my eyes opened to see the whole gospel as Christ taught it. Again, there is only One Body and there is no disagreement within that one body. There is two testimonies or witnesses, that is the Old and the New and they say the same thing. Much of Jesus words are quotes from the Old Testament. Without Christ, there would be no hope for anyone, because He chose to take the death penalty we deserved for us so that we could be bridged back to the Father.

Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Grandpa · Jul 27, 2013

WomanLovesTX said:

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

You don't obey God by obeying Torah. You obey God by believing in His Son and Coming to Him.

The Lord Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

The whole word is truth. If you think I have taken away from the Word then you don't understand what The Lord Jesus Christ has done for us. Why don't you understand?

You are right. There is only One Body and there is no disagreement within that one body.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Why are we not under law? What changed?

Matthew 11:28-30
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

The Lord Jesus gives us Rest from being under the law and puts us under His Grace. This is the Liberty that is in Christ.

Galatians 5:1-6
[SUP]1[/SUP] Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Be not entangled again in that Yoke of Bondage. Why? Because you have a new way. A way of Liberty. If you go back to the old way, the Yoke of bondage, you didn't learn what the schoolmaster was teaching. Therefore you are a debtor to do the whole law perfectly so you can learn the first lesson of the schoolmaster.

just-me · Jul 27, 2013

Hey Grandpa, How ya doin'? If you would be so kind, would you explain to us what walking in the flesh is, and then we will see if we meet that criteria. I mean, denying the salvation of Christ is walking in the flesh and living a life as it was before we were born again. What say you?

Grandpa · Jul 27, 2013

just-me said:

I'm not interested in focusing on the life of the flesh. I've done enough of that already.

I'm interested in the Lord Jesus Christ and the Power of His Salvation and Holy Spirit.

What is it to be baptized in the Holy Spirit? What is it to seek the Kingdom of God? How is a soldier equipped and how does a soldier live, according to scripture?

These are things I would be interested in focusing on and discussing.

just-me · Jul 27, 2013

Grandpa said:

I agree that you are not focused on the life of the flesh because there is no life in it. I'm focused on the law in my mind, just like Paul.

Romans 7:23-25 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
[SUP]25 [/SUP]I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Regarding What is it to be baptized in the Holy Spirit? I would suggest opening a new thread. I will say this one thing, being immersed in any given thing is baptism. Note the baptism and the spiritual meat, drink and rock for example:

1 Corinthians 10:1-5 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

Meditate on this and it will probably answer all three of your questions.

zone · Jul 27, 2013

Grandpa said:

1 Corinthians 2:2
For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified

homwardbound · Jul 28, 2013

Grandpa said:

Agreed, focus on whatever is good, perfect and correct and only Father is good per Christ.

homwardbound · Jul 28, 2013

just-me said:

they never entered his rest because of unbelief
[h=3]Hebrews 4:9-11[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]9 [/SUP]There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

So what would this unbelief be? Could it be in God's finished work since the creation, and fulfilled in Christ Jesus through the cross at the resurrection, where our whole life before the fall of Adam is restored by
Christ's death, burial, resurrection and proof of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost after Christ's ascension, and we know Christ no more in the flesh, rather in the Spirit.
Which today is the only way God can be worshipped in Spirit and truth

John 4:23
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
John 4:22-24 (in Context) John 4 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
John 4:23-25 (in Context) John 4 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
John 14:16-18 (in Context) John 14 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

What Law besides the Laws of Love are needed here and given here?
Please quit adding to the finished work of God through the cross of his one and only Son Christ Jesus
Where we cry Abba Father.
Just asking for you to see, and if not it is on you and on me, and we shall know for we all shall stand at the judgment seat of Christ

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ

So to be clear I am not Judging you in the least, I am only writing what I know as truth and has set me free from stress, as in I am assured of my salvation and do not take it for granted, maybe this is why you are caught in trying to do the Law?
For we all shall know him and have things we have done here on earth either burn up or make it through the fire, and am sure that God knows who are his and who are not.
I just know mixing Law and Grace is a disaster waiting to happen
Water and oil do not mix, just as Law and Grace can't
Law brings, shows punishment, there is no separation in Law
Grace separates the punishment that comes from the Law
Grace has Mercy. Law has punishment, and Christ took the punishment for us at the cross
Praise be His Holy Name, Thank You Christ and Father for this miraculous act.

homwardbound · Jul 28, 2013

Focus onwhat is good, perfect and correct, and as Jesus said only God his Father isgood
Matthew19:17
So He saidto him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But ifyou want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Note: theabove was before the cross and the glorified state of the Spirit of Christ atthe resurrection, raised back to life by Father. Now Christ always pointed toFather and showed us how to depend on Father who was going to live in us (viaHoly Spirit), same Holy Spirit that lived in him to guide us in his Love toall, and thus all is fulfilled in us by God's love through us that believeafter the resurrection. No need for anything else except our Savior in the forefront with the praise and worship band leading
There is abefore the cross and after the cross
Before wehad to love to be loved,
Forgive toget forgiven
Do all thatis right and be perfect if we want to enter heaven, this includes gouge out theeyes, or and cut off the hand if any part of the body caused one to sin underLaw they would have to cut off or gouge out
Better forpart of one to go to Heaven than all of one go to hell

Mark 9:43
If your handcauses you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed,rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never bequenched—
Mark 9:45
And if yourfoot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame,rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shallnever be quenched—

That wasbefore the cross under law, under the curse:

After thecross,
We lovebecause God first loved us; this is a response to the Love of God
WE forgivebecause God through Christ has forgiven us, another response to God
Before thecross all stressed out after the cross relieved in thankfulness and praises andworship in appreciation

Mix the two,and one stays in stress and continues to sin, for the flesh nature is stillalive in that one and by the flesh nature is where one sins whether they wantto or not.
Galatians3:3
Are you sofoolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by theflesh?

Galatians6:8

New KingJames Version (NKJV)

8 For he whosows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to theSpirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

just-me · Jul 28, 2013

Originally Posted by just-me

Right on. One mediator between God and Man. Jesus is our God for all intents and purposes, being one. It's not two mediators of one part, it's one mediator of two parts.

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

Certainly I do. Through Christ Jesus there is one covenant that envelopes our entire Bible. We cannot pick and choose which part of the completeness we are going to accept of reject. Reject the law, and then there is nothing to fulfill, reject the mediator, and the previous continues to be incomplete. I realize, and have continued to say there were two parts to mediate. See my new thread. I think that you will see more clearly what I'm endorsing.

[h=2]Most of the 4 Gospels are part of the Old Testament[/h]

brmicke · Jul 28, 2013

homwardbound said:

Rm 6:11 does not say Paul died to either "God" or "self". Rm 6:11-12 illustrate that Paul tried to not "let sin reign His mortal body".

Ro 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Ro 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

In Rm 6:11 Paul still talks about sin, and this is after Jesus had died on the cross. So there is still the Law after the cross because the Law is scripturally identified as "transgression of the Law,".

1Jo 3:4 ¶ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
(KJV)

Simply considering yourself "dead to sin" is not reality or truth, unless you "never sin".

Living in a condition where you "consider yourself dead to sin" but in actuality you still commit sin is a self-deceptive attitude, as 1 Jn illustrates. This is like saying that I consider myself to be a cat. I may like the idea, but in reality I am not a cat even if I adopt the mindset in which I consider my self a cat. You cannot consider yourself to be dead to sin unless you truly don't sin.

Sin is not a virus or something - it is an action we commit. Sin is violating what God says. As zone made reference to in a previous post - we are not sinful simply because we exist. In order to sin we have to do something, and that would be to violate what God says or His laws, in other words act in an unloving manner towards God or neighbor.

If you do not sin that is great, and that is the goal. But to simply declare yourself "dead to sin" (as I think you are advocating), is a bit like the Pentecostals when they confess that they have a Cadillac by faith - when in actuality they have a chevy. They are simply hoping God will give them a Cadillac because they believe hard enough. "

It seems to me you are wanting to say to yourself "I am dead to sin" while you are still sinful. Is this correct?

It seems to me that you are saying that "for years you did not see" that there is no condemnation in Christ. There is in reality no condemnation in Christ, but there is judgment as (1 Cor 11:32 shows) and that judgment is based upon keeping God's commandments as 1 Jn shows.

We are not forgiven for future sins. However if we sin we have an advocate with the Father, who will forgive us when we ask.
Notice in the following pasted verses that Jesus is the propitiation for our sins "if we keep His commandments. If we don't keep His commandments He is not the propitiation for them, and we must ask Jesus to forgive those sins as well.

1Jo 2:1 ¶ My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jo 2:3 ¶ And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jo 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

Notice that keeping His "word" in verse 5 is the same thing as "keeping His commandments" in verse 4. The love of God is perfected in the person who keeps God's commandments. If a person does not "keep His commandments" in that case they have an advocate with the Father as verse 1 says. However the sin (transgression of the commandment) is not forgiven unless they ask the advocate. This is where the previous verse from 1 Jn 1:9 (pasted below).

1 Jn 1: 9 comes in, 1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
(KJV)

Remember - the chapter separations are not included in the original language versions of the New Testament. This means that the ideas mentioned in 1 Jn 2:1 are a continuation of the writers thoughts mentioned in 1 Jn 1:9.

If we sin we have to confess it to Christ in order to be forgiven, and if we sin willfully we will be judged for it.

If I am correct in what I think you are saying please tell me.

How do you understand 1 Cor 11:32.

1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Respectfully - Brian

I apologize in advance for how long these post get.

just-me · Jul 28, 2013

Shiloah said:

The question then remains, is this blindness wilfull, or is it that some are satisfied with their faith, and feel no erg to see the deeper meaning to God's divine plane from the beginning of time? No one will really know that answer until the day of judgment that belongs to God only.

1 Corinthians 13:12 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

just-me · Jul 28, 2013

Originally Posted by Shiloah

I fear you are totally wasting your time to post anything like this on here. I'm, for the first time in my life, literally seeing with my own eyes flat out blindness. I absolutely do not understand how you can look at a verse like "if you love Me, keep My commandments" and interpret it to mean anything but exactly what it says or ignore it entirely. And it's this way with a ton of verses I've seen posted. This is incredible blindness! I just don't get it. I need a break.

just-me said:

I meant "urge" ..but I suppose "erg" could apply...loosely...maybe... erg noun Physics. the centimeter-gram-second unit of work or energy, equal to the work done by a force of one dyne when its point of application moves through a distance of one centimeter in the direction of the force; 10− 7 joule.

Sorry for the error

brmicke · Jul 28, 2013

Hi Just me - I enjoy the fact that we have the same name despite the spelling difference. I think (IMO- in my opinion), the people (brethren) who are (what could be called blind), simply get tired of resisting sin. We have all been there. The difference between us and them is that when they see the "rest" verses they simply stop trying to resist sin and consider this "entering the rest" mentioned in the Bible.

When in fact the "rest" is only entered into by those who cease from the works of the flesh (sin) in actuality, Gal 5:19.

Ga 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
(KJV)

The real rest of God is not entered into by those who consider themselves to be "positionally" or conceptually delivered from sin.

I think I have found a commentary that states their position well, although I do not agree with it. It may illustrate to us the basis for their thoughts about entering Gods rest versus our resting in " the state of bring positionally sin-free in Christ", but still having to confess sins to be forgiven.
=============================================
Here it is and it comes from the Adam Clark commentary in the Bible -
Hebrews 4:10 Heb 4:10
Verse 10. For he that is entered into his rest] The man who has believed in Christ Jesus has entered into his rest; the state of happiness which he has provided, and which is the forerunner of eternal glory.

Hath ceased from his own works] No longer depends on the observance of Mosaic rites and ceremonies for his justification and final happiness. He rests from all these works of the law as fully as God has rested from his works of creation.
==================================================

I think this is wrong because it gives the impression that ceasing from "our works' is ceasing from the "works of the law".

So I think that they have interpreted the verse that says that those who have entered the "rest of God" have ceased from their own works to mean ceasing from the "works mandated by Mosaic law" instead of the "works of the flesh' as is seen in Gal 5:19.

Respectfully - Brian

just-me · Jul 28, 2013

brmicke said:

That make perfect sense to me. I kinda wondered why people couldn't tell the difference between their works, and God's works in the Mosaic Law. The explanations seem to direct peoples thoughts toward looking at the woks of the Law as corrupt, when in fact the corruption comes from our fallen state. If we connect our iniquity with the law, and label both as a thing of the past, because of the gift of faith, then it is very convenient to neglect human nature. Thank you. What you presented is something that I never could understand, now I understand a bit better. see thread...

DOES HUMAN NATURE VANISH AS SOON AS WE ARE BORN AGAIN?

just-me · Jul 28, 2013

just-us-2 said:

It is apparently a real slap in the face for modern day gentiles to be told that ancient Bereans were wise enough – noble as the KJV calls them – to learn from the Jews that lived among them, when they didn’t even have the New Testament to encourage them to do so. They learned. They didn’t get boastful and self-righteous because of their new status as Gentiles loved by God, but anger grew amongst the Jewish community in Berea because at the time, Paul was teaching these Gentiles of the Messiah. How dare he prove that new “religion” by using “their” law, given by God to “their” Moses and “their” prophets. Because “their” law and “their” prophets told of the coming Messiah, Paul used it to teach the Bereans, who were wise enough to go study to see if they were being told the truth, and they acquired a reputation of being “noble”. Romans 10:19 was being lived out.
Romans 10:19 (KJV)
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
The very next chapter of Romans tells how the Gentiles will provoke the Jews not merely to anger but to desire the relationship with the Messiah that they have. It is God’s word and it will come to pass, but it won’t happen easily because now we have Gentiles turning this situation with the Bereans and Jews near Thessalonica in Greece, around to the opposite direction. Professing Christians regularly, and habitually accuse, belittle, defame, and slander other Gentiles who dare to look at the Mosaic Law to learn from it, and negate (to nullify or cause to be ineffective) the law itself given by God. What a crying shame! It is bad enough that the adversary makes it so hard without people claiming to be Christians (but not living the life Jesus said to live), helping him destroy communication and edification among the body of Christ.

zone said:

We went through all this before, but for your edification, there were more than Jews in Greece.

Acts 17:12 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

Nuff said. won't argue about it again.

just-me · Jul 28, 2013

Exodus 22:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]If fire break out, and catch in thorns, so that the stacks of corn, or the standing corn, or the field, be consumed therewith; he that kindled the fire shall surely make restitution.

zone · Jul 28, 2013

brmicke said:

this is just amazing.

when is it we were reconciled to God, we now at peace with God, receiving peace from God?
when we put on the yoke of the Law?
is that entering His rest?
not according to the Apostles...they said neither they nor their fathers could bear it.

why was the Law brought in?
what was it intended to do?

Romans 5:20
The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase!!

is there an end to it - for some?

Romans 10:4
For Christ has already accomplished the purpose for which the law was given. As a result, all who believe in him are made right with God. - NLT

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. - ESV

Romans 3:20
18There is no fear of God before their eyes. 19Now we know that what things soever the law said, it said to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin

should Paul have actually written:

18There is no fear of God before their eyes. 19Now we know that what things soever the law said, it said to them who are under the flesh: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20Therefore by the deeds of the flesh there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the flesh is the knowledge of sin

or some variation of that?

or what about this:

Acts 13:39
Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.

should it have said something like:

Through him [Christ] everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you can still obtain under the law of Moses though, if you obey them all. You can do it.

and this:

Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

maybe should be:

For we maintain that a man is justified by faith mixed with works of the Law.

just-me · Jul 28, 2013

brmicke said:

To me, His rest instigates a desire to study the law once we are truly saved from our sin, for it is Spiritually comforting to understand via the Holy Spirit, things of great importance issued to us for our understanding. It is grievous to see the law and its judgments if we are not in His rest. So if the law is prohibiting His rest, what would be the current state of that person? Just sayin'

Hebrews 4:1-2 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

just-me · Jul 29, 2013

Exodus 22:7-9 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]If a man shall deliver unto his neighbour money or stuff to keep, and it be stolen out of the man's house; if the thief be found, let him pay double.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges, to see whether he have put his hand unto his neighbour's goods.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For all manner of trespass, whether it be for ox, for ass, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, which another challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges; and whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour.

Is The Mosaic Law Beneficial For Those Who Have Faith?

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