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I am not certain that the issue is a matter of logic. No one could say Francis Collins is not a logical thinker, and as Neil de Grasse Tyson points out we need to ask ourselves why 7% of the members of the National Academy of Sciences are not atheists. If 7% of this elite body believe in a personal God are we really that surprised that perhaps 74% of US adults also believe?
Anyone who asserts there is no God is an atheist, just as anyone who asserts there is must be called a theist. Anyone who takes up ground between these two groups is an agnostic.
Have you seen Dawkins scale of religiosity?
1. Strong theist. 100 per cent probability of God. In the words of C.G. Jung, ‘I do not believe, I know.’
2. Very high probability but short of 100 per cent. De facto theist. ‘I cannot know for certain, but I strongly believe in God and live my life on the assumption that he is there.’
3. Higher than 50 per cent but not very high. Technically agnostic but leaning towards theism. ‘I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God.’
4. Exactly 50 per cent. Completely impartial agnostic. ‘God’s existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable.’
5. Lower than 50 per cent but not very low. Technically agnostic but leaning towards atheism. ‘I don’t know whether God exists but I’m inclined to be sceptical.’
6. Very low probability, but short of zero. De facto atheist. ‘I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there.’
7. Strong atheist. ‘I know there is no God, with the same conviction as Jung “knows” there is one.’ (The God Delusion, p. 50)
Dawkins counts himself as a six as do most atheists I have encountered.
Have you seen Dawkins scale of religiosity?
1. Strong theist. 100 per cent probability of God. In the words of C.G. Jung, ‘I do not believe, I know.’
2. Very high probability but short of 100 per cent. De facto theist. ‘I cannot know for certain, but I strongly believe in God and live my life on the assumption that he is there.’
3. Higher than 50 per cent but not very high. Technically agnostic but leaning towards theism. ‘I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God.’
4. Exactly 50 per cent. Completely impartial agnostic. ‘God’s existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable.’
5. Lower than 50 per cent but not very low. Technically agnostic but leaning towards atheism. ‘I don’t know whether God exists but I’m inclined to be sceptical.’
6. Very low probability, but short of zero. De facto atheist. ‘I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there.’
7. Strong atheist. ‘I know there is no God, with the same conviction as Jung “knows” there is one.’ (The God Delusion, p. 50)
Dawkins counts himself as a six as do most atheists I have encountered.
P
Not even close to being the same thing. There can be no doubt what a Christian is - a follower of Christ. Period. If that person call themself christian and acts like the devil, they are nothing but hypocritical liars. Saying muslims, or blacks, or skinheads, or any other generalization, is profiling. You can't profile Christianity the same way. Even the worst sinner knows right from wrong and can recognize a hypocrite. Even the most heathen of people know enough about what God is to know that most people that claim to be christian, aren't.
obama said he is christian. That is a lie.
Bill Clinton said he was christian. Even did a photo op coming down the steps of a baptist church with a bible under his arm. Everyone knows he isn't.
The bible tells us to try the spirits...by their fruits you will know them, not by what they call themselves.
You don't have to be a christian to know who is and who isn't.
obama said he is christian. That is a lie.
Bill Clinton said he was christian. Even did a photo op coming down the steps of a baptist church with a bible under his arm. Everyone knows he isn't.
The bible tells us to try the spirits...by their fruits you will know them, not by what they call themselves.
You don't have to be a christian to know who is and who isn't.
J
Well, we have to go by what Christ says and not what man says. So if a man says he is a Christian and goes off killing people, even though the new testament says murderers have no place in Heaven, then is this man really a Christian according to the New Testament?
Muslims have no new or Old Testament, so when it says to kill Infidels and make war on them, those Muslims are actually being true to the Koran. This is why people are murdered in Saudi Arabia and Iran for converting to Christianity. This is why Islamic terrorism reigns over the whole world.
there is no justification for murder in the New Testament, but there is plenty of justification for it according to the Koran.
Muslims have no new or Old Testament, so when it says to kill Infidels and make war on them, those Muslims are actually being true to the Koran. This is why people are murdered in Saudi Arabia and Iran for converting to Christianity. This is why Islamic terrorism reigns over the whole world.
there is no justification for murder in the New Testament, but there is plenty of justification for it according to the Koran.
Then it must also be true that to be a theist one must be 100% committed to belief in God? If one has a little uncertainty are you claiming that the theist must then be considered an agnostic? That would make no sense. Agnostics typically reject all dogma. For the agnostic nothing the Bible claims is worth following because nothing in it can be known with any degree of certainty; and nothing the atheist claims can be known either. It is impossible to know whether God exists, or doesn't exit. That means that a Christian can express considerable doubt and yet still be considered a theist, so long as he believes only a little more than the agnostic.
So too the atheist can either be 100% convinced of God's nonexistence, or only marginally more convinced than the agnostic; for so long as he leans, even a little, to the notion that God does not exist, then he already has greater conviction than the uncommitted agnostic. Agnostics are truly rare individuals. Most people lean to one side of the fence or the other; but I will grant you that so long as they still cling to the fence, even if they are not sitting directly on top, they might at least technically be considered agnostic. However, once a person has let go of the fence and committed themselves to the probability of God’s existence that person has now crossed into theism; and should they have dismounted the fence and landed on the other side, and committed themselves to the nonexistence of God, they must be considered an atheist.
So too the atheist can either be 100% convinced of God's nonexistence, or only marginally more convinced than the agnostic; for so long as he leans, even a little, to the notion that God does not exist, then he already has greater conviction than the uncommitted agnostic. Agnostics are truly rare individuals. Most people lean to one side of the fence or the other; but I will grant you that so long as they still cling to the fence, even if they are not sitting directly on top, they might at least technically be considered agnostic. However, once a person has let go of the fence and committed themselves to the probability of God’s existence that person has now crossed into theism; and should they have dismounted the fence and landed on the other side, and committed themselves to the nonexistence of God, they must be considered an atheist.
Historically, polytheism has been the prevalent religion of ancient civilizations such as Egypt, Babylon, Greece, Rome, tribal animists as well as the dominant religions of the Far East. Ancient people lived closer to the time of the Creation events and could see the early earth as it existed. In polytheism, I think that people have invented their own gods but they acknowledged that deity existed.
Atheism has been tiny through much of history and remains a small minority position today. Communist USSR and China have been strongholds of atheism.
People have known and do know that there is a God. They may make a fuss about His identity and attributes but people generally acknowledge that God is out there.
In the Passover and Lord's Supper meals, there is a remembrance of great works of God in the past. These remembrances were started when those great works of God were new. They have continued annually or more often since then.
"Some seek to remember, some seek to forget". It seems that atheism seeks to forget.
Atheism has been tiny through much of history and remains a small minority position today. Communist USSR and China have been strongholds of atheism.
People have known and do know that there is a God. They may make a fuss about His identity and attributes but people generally acknowledge that God is out there.
In the Passover and Lord's Supper meals, there is a remembrance of great works of God in the past. These remembrances were started when those great works of God were new. They have continued annually or more often since then.
"Some seek to remember, some seek to forget". It seems that atheism seeks to forget.
S
I know where you are going with this. Lemme just nip it in the bud for you...the crusades took about 4000ish lives over 300ish years thru various means. Oh and the salem witch trials...less than 25. Do the numbers matter?....you bet they do when you consider atheism is responsible for upwards of a 100 million souls.
J
Forgive me, but only an omniscient being could come to such a conclusion.
In order for you to be certain 100% that there is no God then you would have to know all things.
Is that not logical Spock?
And before I get the "well it's the same for you Christians" no it is not, because we claim revelation of God showing himself to us.
You haven't had God coming to you telling you he doesn't exist, right?
In order for you to be certain 100% that there is no God then you would have to know all things.
Is that not logical Spock?
And before I get the "well it's the same for you Christians" no it is not, because we claim revelation of God showing himself to us.
You haven't had God coming to you telling you he doesn't exist, right?
I like you Cycel. It weighs on my heart that you are an atheist. I have been praying specifically for you. When I pray for you, it reminds me to pray for other atheists. It is funny praying for someone by their "user name", but I figure that God knows you personally and that it is not a problem .
.
D
I like you Cycel. It weighs on my heart that you are an atheist. I have been praying specifically for you. When I pray for you, it reminds me to pray for other atheists. It is funny praying for someone by their "user name", but I figure that God knows you personally and that it is not a problem .
.
And I wanted to add this and I hope Kerry sees it too. He's right about people changing their minds before they die. I have witnessed this happen over and over. I did hospice nursing for years. I've seen people sit there and realize what is going to happen to them, and they start to ask questions. When we have sin to achieve, we are happy in this sinning nature and we can deny God. It is this very powerful lust for sin that denies God and his truth. When the ability to continue sinning is curbed by illness and impending death, people sin less, as they sin less, they are less consumed with deception and naturally start to see clearly.
Forgive me, but only an omniscient being could come to such a conclusion.
In order for you to be certain 100% that there is no God then you would have to know all things.
Is that not logical Spock?
In order for you to be certain 100% that there is no God then you would have to know all things.
Is that not logical Spock?
Jda016 said:
And before I get the "well it's the same for you Christians" no it is not, because we claim revelation of God showing himself to us.
You haven't had God coming to you telling you he doesn't exist, right?
You haven't had God coming to you telling you he doesn't exist, right?
You know, back when I believed in ghosts I thought the evidence was overwhelming. Now I see the flaws. You just haven't noticed yet that the evidence is bad.
On another thread someone posted that the NT does not teach deathbed salvation. I believe that is because it is not the desired reaction for salvation that God wants. I am reluctant to "teach" deathbed salvation, but I think the bible is very clear that people can be saved on their deathbeds. The problem is when someone lives their whole (or a significant portion) life planning on deathbed salvation. It is hard to force yourself to feel compassion and remorse. A very, very dangerous game. Besides, who knows if you are going to get a chance at a deathbed. We are not guaranteed a chance to change our hearts. Just so it is clear, I agree with you, but for the ones that have considered doing this I suggest they rethink their choice.