Israel
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The Kingdom of God is eschatlological, in all aspects, you could say we as co hiers with Christ and thus those who are the blessed nations and in the seed (Abrahamic covenant) of Christ are in this Kingdom, we have Eternal life already but not yet.
The Kingdom of God is described as Already but not yet. it has been innaugurated but awaiting consumation. But you need to see what the Jews where awaiting, they mistakingly thought the Messiah was going to be a sort of earthly King who was going to rid then of oppression. the Messiah wa going to be their King and Israel would be in peace and a light unto the nations. this was their expectation and intertestamental understanding of the Messianic prophecies, they still thought this way as can be seen in Act 1. Jesus then talks them through it and they see it.
When you understand this, the gospels start to come alive...why would Peter say never..to Jesus being smitten on the cross etc. These expectations where at fever pitch when Christ enter victorious into Jerusalem..''Hosanna'.
Yet this is not the Kingdom that Jesus innaugurated, we are now all in the Kingdom of God, both Jew and greek (gentile). we can see the Kingdom at work in the Sermon on the Mount (Kingdom Ethics) and look at all the parables that are similies of the Kingdom...'the Kingdom of God is like....'
That is a very basic talk through, but you get the idea. So the Kingdom is eschatological, our Christian walk is Eschatological. Pauls writings where very eschatological in thought also.
So who fulfilled the promises of Abraham? did not Christ (the Siniatic covenant is fulfilled on all our behalf). and if Christ fulfilled the covenant and we are in Christ? so we are the true Israel the Church.
Now that just leaves one issue. and this is the promise of land to those who are in the promise, i.e all those in Christ?
there are many views, but think of this.
God is through redemptive History reconciling his people to himself, he wants to walk (tabernacle) with his people. First of all in the Garden, God Tabernacles with his peopl (Adam and Eve) then he leads his people to the promised land (yet through rebellion this doesnt work) and then yet to come we have the new earth and the new Jerusalem this is yet to come.
there where intermediary ways in which God fellowshipped with man:
Tent of meeting
Tabernacle
Temple
Now Christ surpassed all these typologies also.
Well that is just a very quick skim over the eschatological look of scripture, sorry for trying to pack alot into a very small space. I am not trying to convince you either way just my views. to me scripture makes far more sense in redemptive history and to the eschaton than any-other attempt.
in Love
Phil
The Kingdom of God is described as Already but not yet. it has been innaugurated but awaiting consumation. But you need to see what the Jews where awaiting, they mistakingly thought the Messiah was going to be a sort of earthly King who was going to rid then of oppression. the Messiah wa going to be their King and Israel would be in peace and a light unto the nations. this was their expectation and intertestamental understanding of the Messianic prophecies, they still thought this way as can be seen in Act 1. Jesus then talks them through it and they see it.
When you understand this, the gospels start to come alive...why would Peter say never..to Jesus being smitten on the cross etc. These expectations where at fever pitch when Christ enter victorious into Jerusalem..''Hosanna'.
Yet this is not the Kingdom that Jesus innaugurated, we are now all in the Kingdom of God, both Jew and greek (gentile). we can see the Kingdom at work in the Sermon on the Mount (Kingdom Ethics) and look at all the parables that are similies of the Kingdom...'the Kingdom of God is like....'
That is a very basic talk through, but you get the idea. So the Kingdom is eschatological, our Christian walk is Eschatological. Pauls writings where very eschatological in thought also.
So who fulfilled the promises of Abraham? did not Christ (the Siniatic covenant is fulfilled on all our behalf). and if Christ fulfilled the covenant and we are in Christ? so we are the true Israel the Church.
Now that just leaves one issue. and this is the promise of land to those who are in the promise, i.e all those in Christ?
there are many views, but think of this.
God is through redemptive History reconciling his people to himself, he wants to walk (tabernacle) with his people. First of all in the Garden, God Tabernacles with his peopl (Adam and Eve) then he leads his people to the promised land (yet through rebellion this doesnt work) and then yet to come we have the new earth and the new Jerusalem this is yet to come.
there where intermediary ways in which God fellowshipped with man:
Tent of meeting
Tabernacle
Temple
Now Christ surpassed all these typologies also.
Well that is just a very quick skim over the eschatological look of scripture, sorry for trying to pack alot into a very small space. I am not trying to convince you either way just my views. to me scripture makes far more sense in redemptive history and to the eschaton than any-other attempt.
in Love
Phil
I
Did they fall under the curse? Did all these things happen to Israel that God said would? Why is the truth such foolishness to you? Does these curses apply to the 'Jews' in Israel today? If not then who falls under these categories? Who were brought to Egypt again by ships? Who were sold as bondmen and women?
S
Okay, I wasn't sure if you had a question about the 12 tribes of Israel, spiritual Israel or the faithful remnant, thank you for clearing that up. Now that I understand you are coming from, a Calvinistic theological, eschatological, Covenant Theology/(Which I see very closely related to Replacement theology) perspective prior to someone who wants to learn something about Israel, I will kindly back out of the conversation. I had an idea what you were saying but no clue where you were coming from.
Well Im not exactly replacement theology in my thinking, they are similar. Many people get confuse with covenant theology even some well known scholars. First of covenant theology starts with Abraham, the jews them selves where a covenant people. and you can see this as their own identity 'markers'. it is often called Calvinism because Calvin the great theologian he is, saw how wrong the church had went in its theology (i dont mean the eschaton in particular here).. We who are in Christ are also in Covenant in Christ..new covenant, thats why your NT is called new testament (new covenant).
Where we differ is how dispensationalism views redemptive history and this really comes into force with Darby, which is quite new. again I am not talking about the end times. this is where people get really confused, people think to be a millennianist you need to be dispensationalist, which is not true. St Augustan held a two views, one at the start of his Christian walk then another. alot of people hold a lot of reformed theology and don't even know it. I would say replacement theology is probably an arminian attempt to be reformed but remain arminian lol
Both reformed and arminian are eschatological.. the new testament is echatological. (Looking forward)
in Love
Phil
Where we differ is how dispensationalism views redemptive history and this really comes into force with Darby, which is quite new. again I am not talking about the end times. this is where people get really confused, people think to be a millennianist you need to be dispensationalist, which is not true. St Augustan held a two views, one at the start of his Christian walk then another. alot of people hold a lot of reformed theology and don't even know it. I would say replacement theology is probably an arminian attempt to be reformed but remain arminian lol
Both reformed and arminian are eschatological.. the new testament is echatological. (Looking forward)
in Love
Phil
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I
Can you show me the holocaust in the Bible? And if so, who are the Jews spoken of in Revelation? Were they scattered throughout the four corners of the earth? Are the Jews today the "head" or the "tail" spoken of in the curses? Then what's really ironical about this is NOW the law applies to all people! Even the ones who were not with Israel when God gave them the law. Why doesn't this apply also to the Sabbath? When that comes up, I here about how this was a covenant made only with Israel.
there is neither Jew nor greek nor slave nor free, for we are all one in Christ. Christ fullfilled both the covenant of law, which related to a national geopolitical group, viz. Israel. they could not fulfill it but Christ did, Christ fulfilled also the promise to Abraham.. we are one in Christ, Christ is the ultimate Israel and we are in Him. both Jew and greek.
Phil
S
I don't believe Shabbot was only given to Israel, so I don't use that argument. Also, not sure why you'd need to see the holocaust in the Bible to know that Jews went through that.. Which I don't really want to get into, if you don't believe they were true Jews that is your problem. I have to excuse myself from the conversation though, nice talking to you guys, blessings!
M
A person is a Jew if their Mother is a Jew.... If their Father is a Jew and they grew-up Jewish (or they are not a Jew).... Non-Jews are NON-JEWS they are GRAFTED IN!!!!!!!! We are all the Born-again children of Yeshua! TRUE ISRAEL is ALLLLLLLL of OUR LAND AND JEWS!!!!!! There are promises for all humankind in Yeshua but He gave promises for Israel (only) too.
Israel is God's chosen, covenant people, and He has yet to fulfill specific promises to them (which means in the future God will fulfill these promises, e.g. the whole of the promised land). During the tribulation God's dealing with the Nation of Israel will resume. as we see in revelation that God will raise up 144,000 Jewish evangelists to proclaim the gospel to the world. The church is NOT Israel.
S
In physical Israel, there are about 10,000 Messianic Jews? That's the last statistic I heard, who knows how many there are hiding their identity though. Outside of Israel, I am not sure the Christian count, isn't it around 1/4 of the world is a professed "Christian" ? I'm not sure the EXACT statistics but if anyone does please fill me in.
S
Well Miryam was not married so she would be the only one passing down the genealogy to Yeshua. That doesn't take away from the father's side to anyone who is Jewish by just their father and not mother. Like I said you don't see any genealogy being tracked strictly by mother lines, it's always by father in the bible.
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