Israel

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M

mcubed

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#41
Well Miryam was not married so she would be the only one passing down the genealogy to Yeshua. That doesn't take away from the father's side to anyone who is Jewish by just their father and not mother. Like I said you don't see any genealogy being tracked strictly by mother lines, it's always by father in the bible.
The pattern of genealogy in the Hebrew Scriptures is followed by the New Testament pattern where two genealogies are found: Matthew 1:1-17 and Luke 3:23-38. Of the four gospel accounts, only those two deal with the birth and early life of Jesus. Both Mark and John begin their accounts with Jesus as an adult, so it is natural that only Matthew and Luke would have a genealogy. While they both provide an account of the birth and early life of Jesus, each tells the story from a different perspective.
In Matthew, Joseph plays an active role, but Miriam (Mary) plays a passive role. Matthew records angels appearing to Joseph, but there is no record of angels appearing to Miriam. Matthew records Joseph's thoughts but nothing is recorded about Miriam's thoughts. On the other hand, Luke's Gospel tells the same story from Miriam's perspective. From the context of each Gospel, it should be very evident that the genealogy of Matthew is that of Joseph, and the genealogy of Luke is that of Miriam.
The question then raised is: Why do we need two genealogies, especially since Y'shua (Jesus) was not the real son of Joseph? A popular and common answer is: Matthew's Gospel gives the royal line, whereas Luke's Gospel gives the real line. From this concept, another theory arises. Since seemingly Joseph was the heir apparent to David's throne, and Jesus was the adopted son of Joseph, Jesus could claim the right to David's throne. On the other hand, Luke's Gospel gives the real line, showing that Y'shua himself was a descendant of David. Through Miriam, he was a member of the house of David, but he could claim the right to sit on David's throne through Joseph, the heir apparent. Actually the exact opposite is true.
Kingship
To understand the need for these two genealogies, it is important to understand the two requirements for kingship in the Hebrew Scriptures. These were developed after the division of the kingdom after the death of Solomon.…
One was applicable to the southern Kingdom of Judah, with its capital in Jerusalem, while the other was applicable to the northern Kingdom of Israel, with its capital in Samaria. The requirement for the throne of Judah was Davidic descendancy. No one was allowed to sit on David's throne unless he was a member of the house of David. So when there was a conspiracy to do away with the house of David (Isaiah 7:5-6), God warned that any such conspiracy was doomed to failure (Isaiah 8:9-15).
The requirement for the throne of Israel was prophetic sanction or divine appointment. Anyone who attempted to rule on Samaria's throne without prophetic sanction was assassinated (1 Kings 11:26-39; 15:28-30; 16:1-4, 11-15; 21:21-29; 11 Kings 9:6-10; 10:29-31; 14 8-12).
With the background of these two biblical requirements for kingship and what is stated in the two New Testament genealogies, the question of Jesus' right to the throne of David can be resolved.
Matthew's Genealogy
In his genealogy, Matthew breaks with Jewish tradition and custom. He mentions the names of four women: Tamar, Rahab, Ruth and Bathsheba (who is the one to whom the pronoun "her" in verse six refers). It was contrary to Jewish practice to name women in a genealogy. The Talmud states, "A mother's family is not to be called a family." Even the few women Luke does mention were not the most prominent women in the genealogy of Y'shua. He could have mentioned Sarah, but did not. However, Matthew has a reason for naming these four and no others.
First, they were all Gentiles. This is obvious with Tamar, Rahab and Ruth. It was probably true of Bathsheba, since her first husband, Uriah, was a Hittite. Here Matthew hints at something he makes clear later: that while the main purpose of the coming of Jesus was to save the lost sheep of the house of Israel, the Gentiles would also benefit from his coming. Second, three of these women were guilty of sexual sins. Bathsheba was guilty of adultery, Rahab was guilty of prostitution and Tamar was guilty of incest. Again, Matthew only hints at a point he later clarifies: that the purpose of the Messiah's coming was to save sinners. While this fits into the format of Old Testament genealogy, it is not Matthew's main point.
Matthew's genealogy also breaks with tradition in that he skips names. He traces the line of Joseph, the step-father of Jesus, by going back into history and working toward his own time. He starts tracing the line with Abraham (verse 2) and continues to David (verse 6). Out of David's many sons, Solomon is chosen (verse 6), and the line is then traced to King Jeconiah (verse 11), one of the last kings before the Babylonian captivity. From Jeconiah (verse 12), the line is traced to Joseph (verse 16). Joseph was a direct descendant of David through Solomon, but also through Jeconiah. The "Jeconiah link" is significant in Matthew's genealogy because of the special curse pronounced on Jeconiah in Jeremiah 22:24-30:
As I live," declares the LORD,
"even though Jeconiah the son of Jehoiakim
king of Judah were a signet ring on my right
hand, yet I would pull you off…
"Is this man Jeconiah a despised, shattered jar?
Or is he an undesirable vessel?
Why have he and his descendants been hurled out
and cast into a land that they had not known?
"O land, land, land, Hear the word of the LORD!!
"Thus says the LORD, 'Write this man [Jeconiah] down childless,
A man who will not prosper in his days;
For no man of his descendants will prosper
Sitting on the throne of David, Or ruling again in Judah.'
No descendant of Jeconiah would have the right to the throne of David. Until Jeremiah, the first requirement for messianic lineage was to be of the house of David. With Jeremiah, it was limited still further. Now one had to be not only of the house of David, but apart from Jeconiah.
According to Matthew's genealogy, Joseph had the blood of Jeconiah in his veins. He was not qualified to sit on David's throne. He was not the heir apparent. This would also mean that no real son of Joseph would have the right to claim the throne of David. Therefore if Jesus were the real son of Joseph, he would have been disqualified from sitting on David's throne. Neither could he claim the right to David's throne by virtue of his adoption by Joseph, since Joseph was not the heir apparent.
The purpose of Matthew's genealogy, then, is to show why Y'shua could not be king if he were really Joseph's son. The purpose was not to show the royal line. For this reason, Matthew starts his Gospel with the genealogy, presents the Jeconiah problem, and then proceeds with the account of the virgin birth which, from Matthew's viewpoint, is the solution to the Jeconiah problem. In summary, Matthew deduces that if Jesus were really Joseph's son, he could not claim to sit on David's throne because of the Jeconiah curse; but Jesus was not Joseph's son, for he was born of the virgin Miriam (Matthew 1:18-25).
Luke's Genealogy
Unlike Matthew, Luke follows strict Jewish procedure and custom in that he omits no names and mentions no women. However, if by Jewish custom one could not mention the name of a woman, but wished to trace her line, how would one do so? He would use the name of her husband. (Possible Old Testament precedents for this practice are Ezra 2:61 and Nehemiah 7:63.) That would raise a second question: If someone studied a genealogy, how would he know whether the genealogy were that of the husband or that of the wife, since in either case the husband's name would be used? The answer is not difficult; the problem lies with the English language.
In English it is not good grammar to use a definite article ("the") before a proper name ("the" Matthew, "the" Luke, "the" Miriam): however, it is quite permissible in Greek grammar. In the Greek text of Luke's genealogy, every single name mentioned has the Greek definite article "the" with one exception: the name of Joseph (Lk 3:23). Someone reading the original would understand by the missing definite article from Joseph's name that this was not really Joseph's genealogy, but his wife Miriam's.
Furthermore, although many translations of Lk 3:23 read: "…being supposedly the son of Joseph, the son of Eli…," because of the missing Greek definite article before the name of Joseph, that same verse could be translated as follows: "Being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph the son of Heli…".1 In other words, the final parenthesis could be expanded so that the verse reads that although Y'shua was "supposed" or assumed to be the descendant of Joseph, he was really the descendant of Heli. Heli was the father of Miriam. The absence of Miriam's name is quite in keeping with the Jewish practices on genealogies. The Jerusalem Talmud recognized this genealogy to be that of Miriam and not Joseph and refers to Miriam as the daughter of Heli (Hagigah 2:4).
Also in contrast to Matthew, Luke begins his genealogy with his own time and goes back into history all the way to Adam. It comes to the family of David in versees 31-32. However, the son of David involved in this genealogy is not Solomon but Nathan. So, like Joseph, Miriam was a member of the house of David. But unlike Joseph, she came from David's son, Nathan, not Solomon. Miriam was a member of the house of David apart from Jeconiah. Since Jesus was Miriam's son, he too was a member of the house of David, apart from Jeconiah.
In this way Jesus fulfilled the biblical requirement for kingship. Since Luke's genealogy did not include Jeconiah's line, he began his Gospel with the virgin birth, and only later, in describing Y'shua's public ministry, recorded his genealogy.
However, Jesus was not the only member of the house of David apart from Jeconiah. There were a number of other descendants who could claim equality with Y'shua to the throne of David, for they too did not have Jeconiah's blood in their veins. Why Jesus and not one of the others? At this point the second biblical requirement for kingship, that of divine appointment, comes into the picture. Of all the members of the house of David apart from Jeconiah, only one received divine appointment. Lk 1:30-33 states:
And the angel said to her, 'Do not be afraid, Miriam; for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb, and bear a son, and you shall name Him Y'shua. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High: and the Lord God will give him the throne of his father David; and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever; and His kingdom will have no end.'
On what grounds then could Jesus claim the throne of David? He was a member of the house of David apart from Jeconiah. He alone received divine appointment to that throne: "The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David."
While Matthew's genealogy showed why Y'shua could not be king if he really were Joseph's son, Luke's genealogy shows why Y'shua could be king. When he returns, he will be king.
Two things may be noted by way of conclusion. First, many rabbinic objections to the messiahship of Jesus are based on his genealogy. The argument goes, "Since Jesus was not a descendant of David through his father, he cannot be Messiah and King." But the Messiah was supposed to be different. As early as Gn, 3:15, it was proposed that the Messiah would be reckoned after the "seed of the woman," although this went contrary to the biblical norm. The necessity for this exception to the rule became apparent when Is 7:14 prophesied that the Messiah would be born of a virgin: "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call his name Immanuel." Whereas all others receive their humanity from both father and mother, the Messiah would receive his humanity entirely from his mother. Whereas Jewish nationality and tribal identity were normally determined by the father, with the Messiah it would be different. Since he was to have no human father, his nationality and his tribal identity would come entirely from his mother. True, this is contrary to the norm, but so is a virgin birth. With the Messiah, things would be different.
In addition, these genealogies present a fourfold portrait of the messianic person through four titles. In Mt 1:1 he is called the Son of David and the Son of Abraham. In Luke 3:38 he is called the Son of Adam and the Son of God. As the Son of David, it means that Jesus is king. As the Son of Abraham, it means that Jesus is a Jew. As the Son of Adam, it means that Jesus is a man. As the Son of God, it means that Jesus is God. This fourfold portrait of the messianic person as presented by the genealogies is that of the Jewish God-Man King. Could the Messiah be anyone less?
 
M

mcubed

Guest
#42
What AMAZES me about Scripture is even the begets are full of meat!!lol....
 
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Shwagga

Guest
#43
Yes ty for posting that not sure what it had to do with being Jewish though, but nice information from Jews for Jesus ;).
 
M

mcubed

Guest
#44
Yes ty for posting that not sure what it had to do with being Jewish though, but nice information from Jews for Jesus ;).
Yes is is good isn't it;).... It went back to another comment... sorry wrong quote..lol you'll have that.... especially from me..lol
 
S

Shwagga

Guest
#45
Yes is is good isn't it;).... It went back to another comment... sorry wrong quote..lol you'll have that.... especially from me..lol
:) lol i am with you there! and not a problem, was just like huh? lol I understand though, happens all the time to me
 
Apr 4, 2010
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#46
Can I ask one of you. In Israel how many Jews would officially be Christian. And outside of Israel how many would be considered Christian as well?
None, because it's impossible for a Jew to be a Christian, just like it's impossible for a Christian to be a Jew.

Well, there is ONE exception, and that's Messianic Jews. Not to be confused with Jews for Jesus, of course. Jews for Jesus are Christians. And even Messianic Jews aren't really Christians. A true Messianic Jew is a person who believes Jesus is the messiah and yet follows the Jewish religion.
 
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miktre

Guest
#47
We know that Saul was the first king of Israel and that John was the first man called Baptist but who was the first jew ? Neither Adam Seth or Noah are called jew. Nor were Abraham Isaac or Jacob. Moses was not called a jew and neither were Saul David or Solomon called jew. In fact you will not find the word jew in the first eleven books of the Bible. The first time jews are mentioned in the Bible is in 2nd Kings 16:6 where we find Israel was at war with the jews and drave the jews from Elath. Isn't it interesting that we can read over five hundred pages of the bible before we find a jew anywhere yet those who call themselves jew today claim the first five books of the bible and call it there Torah.
We know that God changed the name of Abram to Abraham Gen. 17:5 and that God changed the name of Jacob to Israel Gen. 32:28 but no where in the bible do we find where God changed the name of his chosen people Israel to jew ! Therefore there is no authority by which those who say they are jews can claim to be Israel !
 
Apr 4, 2010
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#48
We know that Saul was the first king of Israel and that John was the first man called Baptist but who was the first jew ? Neither Adam Seth or Noah are called jew. Nor were Abraham Isaac or Jacob. Moses was not called a jew and neither were Saul David or Solomon called jew. In fact you will not find the word jew in the first eleven books of the Bible. The first time jews are mentioned in the Bible is in 2nd Kings 16:6 where we find Israel was at war with the jews and drave the jews from Elath. Isn't it interesting that we can read over five hundred pages of the bible before we find a jew anywhere yet those who call themselves jew today claim the first five books of the bible and call it there Torah.
We know that God changed the name of Abram to Abraham Gen. 17:5 and that God changed the name of Jacob to Israel Gen. 32:28 but no where in the bible do we find where God changed the name of his chosen people Israel to jew ! Therefore there is no authority by which those who say they are jews can claim to be Israel !
The Hebrew for "Jew" is "Yehudi". The Hebrew for the tribe of "Judah" is "Yehudah". A Jew is simply one who comes from the tribe of Judah. Every member of the tribe of Judah is a Jew. Followers of the Jewish religion are also Jews.

So Jews are mentioned before 2 Kings :)
 
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miktre

Guest
#49
The Hebrew for "Jew" is "Yehudi". The Hebrew for the tribe of "Judah" is "Yehudah". A Jew is simply one who comes from the tribe of Judah. Every member of the tribe of Judah is a Jew. Followers of the Jewish religion are also Jews.

So Jews are mentioned before 2 Kings :)
This is where you error for jew can also mean nationality(occupant of the land of Judea) and today it can mean religion also. It it error to say it is same as tribe of Judah i.e. race only.
 
Dec 19, 2009
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#51
You can see your error when you loosely throw around the word "jew" You can't say Christs offer is not open to any race.
Well maybe I am going mad(probably) but I cannot find where I am supposed to have made that remark you have quoted in your previous comment. I hsave just checked again. Can you tell me where that qwuote of mine came from that you used Miktre?
 
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QuestionTime

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2010
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#52
Who is the true Israel? This should be interesting.
My old church believed in British Israel. They laid too much emphasis on it though and I always told them that. It really doesn't matter that much if it be true or not.

But the "Declaration of Arbroath" seems to make pretty clear that the Scots were descendent's of Israel. Some believe that they are the tribe of Judah. Denmark is the tribe of Dan as Denmark apparently means "Mark of Dan." And the people of that tribe always named everything after Dan: Example: The Danube River.

I can't remember all of this stuff anymore as I haven't kept up with it. I know that it was the British who liberated Jerusalem "as birds flying" with their airforce in WWI.

Also, if you look close you'll see just how white most of the people in Israel seem to be. The dark skinned people are possibly Edomites and God says that He hates the Edomites forever in scripture (something like that anyway). But the problem is, if these dark skinned people aren't Edomites, where are the Edomites today?

Quest
 

QuestionTime

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2010
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#53
A person is a Jew if their Mother is a Jew.... If their Father is a Jew and they grew-up Jewish (or they are not a Jew).... Non-Jews are NON-JEWS they are GRAFTED IN!!!!!!!! We are all the Born-again children of Yeshua! TRUE ISRAEL is ALLLLLLLL of OUR LAND AND JEWS!!!!!! There are promises for all humankind in Yeshua but He gave promises for Israel (only) too.
I always get annoyed when people call the Israelites "Jews." Jews are the people of Benjamin and Judah. The northern tribes (10) are not called Jews.

Quest
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#54
My old church believed in British Israel. They laid too much emphasis on it though and I always told them that. It really doesn't matter that much if it be true or not.

But the "Declaration of Arbroath" seems to make pretty clear that the Scots were descendent's of Israel. Some believe that they are the tribe of Judah. Denmark is the tribe of Dan as Denmark apparently means "Mark of Dan." And the people of that tribe always named everything after Dan: Example: The Danube River.

I can't remember all of this stuff anymore as I haven't kept up with it. I know that it was the British who liberated Jerusalem "as birds flying" with their airforce in WWI.

Also, if you look close you'll see just how white most of the people in Israel seem to be. The dark skinned people are possibly Edomites and God says that He hates the Edomites forever in scripture (something like that anyway). But the problem is, if these dark skinned people aren't Edomites, where are the Edomites today?



Quest

I don't believe in British Israel, that is just a load of old rubbish and not even biblical.

Phil
 
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QuestionTime

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2010
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#55

I don't believe in British Israel, that is just a load of old rubbish and not even biblical.

Phil

I found the arguments very convincing, as well, all who left the church - that I am aware of - still hold to this belief, though they don't make it a big deal.

I can link people to my old church website if they want to learn about British Israel, because they have a stunning load of info to read. Diagrams, pictures, the whole works.

Quest
 
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Apr 4, 2010
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#56
This is where you error for jew can also mean nationality(occupant of the land of Judea) and today it can mean religion also. It it error to say it is same as tribe of Judah i.e. race only.
Where is the error? I said a Jew is simply one who comes from the tribe of Judah as far as ethnicity goes. Yes, it is a religion as well, but at the heart of a matter the simplest definition of what/who a "Jew" is, is a member of the tribe of Judah.
 
Apr 4, 2010
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#57
You can see your error when you loosely throw around the word "jew"


I said the word "Jew" twice. It was grammatically correct, not "loosely throwing it around" :p


You can't say Christs offer is not open to any race.
You're right, I can't, and to my knowledge I didn't. Did I say that? I don't think I did ;)
 

QuestionTime

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2010
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#58

I don't believe in British Israel, that is just a load of old rubbish and not even biblical.

Phil
What loonie bin did I climb out of, eh? Reading Charles Finney and believing in British Israel... :D

Quest :D
 
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Shwagga

Guest
#59
I always get annoyed when people call the Israelites "Jews." Jews are the people of Benjamin and Judah. The northern tribes (10) are not called Jews.

Quest
So why is it Paul tells us to preach to the Jew first then Gentile, was he saying that the other 10 tribes of Israel are Gentiles? I'm also curious if you can backup your statement scripturally.
 
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miktre

Guest
#60
Well maybe I am going mad(probably) but I cannot find where I am supposed to have made that remark you have quoted in your previous comment. I hsave just checked again. Can you tell me where that qwuote of mine came from that you used Miktre?
You are not going mad, I used the quote option on rogues post and because the way he had quoted you it came up as yours.
 
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