Israel

[miktre]

I said the word "Jew" twice. It was grammatically correct, not "loosely throwing it around"



You're right, I can't, and to my knowledge I didn't. Did I say that? I don't think I did

You could of only said it once it does not matter, you did say a jew cannot be a Christian and then go on to describe a jew as the tribe of Judah. You see the error?

 

[Rogue]

You could of only said it once it does not matter

Actually, it does. In order to keep my statement grammatically correct and to convey the meaning I wanted to convey, I needed to use it twice.

Really, though. Are you seriously going to sit here and make a big deal out of me using the word twice?

you did say a jew cannot be a Christian and then go on to describe a jew as the tribe of Judah. You see the error?

Not really, no. Perhaps you could explain it to me?

 

[miktre]

I found the arguments very convincing, as well, all who left the church - that I am aware of - still hold to this belief, though they don't make it a big deal.

I can link people to my old church website if they want to learn about British Israel, because they have a stunning load of info to read. Diagrams, pictures, the whole works.

Quest

I agree that the evidence points towards the Anglo-Saxons. Saxon= sons of Isaac.
However all those who are in Christ are Gods chosen people, not those who deny Him.
Same say this is racist but its just the opposite. We are saved by grace, not by race. The offer is open to all people.

 

[miktre]

Actually, it does. In order to keep my statement grammatically correct and to convey the meaning I wanted to convey, I needed to use it twice.

Really, though. Are you seriously going to sit here and make a big deal out of me using the word twice?

My point was it doesn't matter how many times you used it, once or a million.

Not really, no. Perhaps you could explain it to me?

You said a jew can't become a Christian and then went on to describe Jew as a race.


32And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
King James Version (KJV)

 

[QuestionTime]

So why is it Paul tells us to preach to the Jew first then Gentile, was he saying that the other 10 tribes of Israel are Gentiles? I'm also curious if you can backup your statement scripturally.

The Bible makes clear that the Jews were the Southern tribes. The Northern tribes were Israel.

Whether or not the people called Jews in Jesus time were all 12/13 tribes is debatable and I doubt can be proven either way from scripture. I certainly wouldn't call myself a Jew if I was from the Northern tribes.

But I really don't have the energy to research this matter now.

Quest

 

[Rogue]

My point was it doesn't matter how many times you used it, once or a million.

If it doesn't matter, why even bother mentioning it?

You said a jew can't become a Christian and then went on to describe Jew as a race.

No, I said a Jew cannot BE a Christian, not that they cannot BECOME a Christian. There is a big difference between being something and becoming something.

And in this context I was speaking of religious Jews, that is, followers of the religion Judaism.

32And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
King James Version (KJV)

I don't see the relevance of this verse to this conversation...please explain?

 

[miktre]

If it doesn't matter, why even bother mentioning it?

You are the one who brought up how many times you used it so ask yourself why you bothered mentioning it.

No, I said a Jew cannot BE a Christian, not that they cannot BECOME a Christian. There is a big difference between being something and becoming something.

And in this context I was speaking of religious Jews, that is, followers of the religion Judaism.

Exactly my point of using the word loosely.
The conversation in no way implied you speaking of jews by religion as you can see the answer you gave LivingByGrace when the context of the conversation was clearly race not religion.
He asked:

Can I ask one of you. In Israel how many Jews would officially be Christian. And outside of Israel how many would be considered Christian as well?

You answered:

None, because it's impossible for a Jew to be a Christian, just like it's impossible for a Christian to be a Jew.

Well, there is ONE exception, and that's Messianic Jews. Not to be confused with Jews for Jesus, of course. Jews for Jesus are Christians. And even Messianic Jews aren't really Christians. A true Messianic Jew is a person who believes Jesus is the messiah and yet follows the Jewish religion.

He asked about a race being Christian and you gave a whole other answer about being another religion and Christian at the same time. Reread your answer because it doesn't make sense and contradicts itself. First you say Messianic Jews are the ONE exception and then go on to say they are not Christian at all.
You then fail to recognize that Jews for Jesus are the ONE exception yet go on to say they are Christian.
If a "jew" doesn't belong to "jews for Jesus" then he can't be a Christian?
See where your statement makes no sense and is confusing? Perhaps if the word jew wasn't thrown around so loosely you would of been able to stay on the subject a little better and not drifted off so far from the original question.

 

[livingbygrace]

You are the one who brought up how many times you used it so ask yourself why you bothered mentioning it.

Exactly my point of using the word loosely.
The conversation in no way implied you speaking of jews by religion as you can see the answer you gave LivingByGrace when the context of the conversation was clearly race not religion.
He asked:

You answered:

Well I may be unable to see further than the end of my nose, but can you tell me exactly where I wrote these comments pleas, which page and where, because I cannot find it, nor do I remember writing it
Actually could you bring the message up with a comment on this page, then I can read it myself
He asked about a race being Christian and you gave a whole other answer about being another religion and Christian at the same time. Reread your answer because it doesn't make sense and contradicts itself. First you say Messianic Jews are the ONE exception and then go on to say they are not Christian at all.
You then fail to recognize that Jews for Jesus are the ONE exception yet go on to say they are Christian.
If a "jew" doesn't belong to "jews for Jesus" then he can't be a Christian?
See where your statement makes no sense and is confusing? Perhaps if the word jew wasn't thrown around so loosely you would of been able to stay on the subject a little better and not drifted off so far from the original question.

 

[livingbygrace]

All I asked was how many Jews in Israel and outrside Israel would be considered Christian, in other words believe Christ was the Messiah. Is that such a wrong question?

 

[miktre]

Well I may be unable to see further than the end of my nose, but can you tell me exactly where I wrote these comments pleas, which page and where, because I cannot find it, nor do I remember writing it

Like I said before the first post you asked about was a mistake because they had left over junk on the the post when I used the quote option and it was supposed to be a quote from rogue.

On my last post I only used the question you asked and the rest of the quotes don't even imply that they came from you.
Click on the blue arrow in this quote to see the original post you asked the question:

Can I ask one of you. In Israel how many Jews would officially be Christian. And outside of Israel how many would be considered Christian as well?

 

[miktre]

All I asked was how many Jews in Israel and outrside Israel would be considered Christian, in other words believe Christ was the Messiah. Is that such a wrong question?

Who said anything about that being such a wrong question? I think its a good question.

 

[livingbygrace]

Who said anything about that being such a wrong question? I think its a good question.

Well thank you, but can you please bring up to this last page these comments I am supposed to have made about messanic jews, because either my memory has gone or I dod not write them. OK, no problem I have just read your last post

 

[Shwagga]

The Bible makes clear that the Jews were the Southern tribes. The Northern tribes were Israel.

Whether or not the people called Jews in Jesus time were all 12/13 tribes is debatable and I doubt can be proven either way from scripture. I certainly wouldn't call myself a Jew if I was from the Northern tribes.

But I really don't have the energy to research this matter now.

Quest

Okay, I just thought with that type of drastic statement of Israeli's not being Jews you might have some Scripture to support that.

I'm curious how YOU would determine what tribe anyone is from anyway, seeing as most Jews don't even know what tribe they are from.

 

[resurrection33]

Who is the true Israel? This should be interesting.

Perhaps the true Israel is the humble among us.

 

[MahogonySnail]

yes amen. It's not about genetics. ,

 

[Rogue]

Exactly my point of using the word loosely.
The conversation in no way implied you speaking of jews by religion as you can see the answer you gave LivingByGrace when the context of the conversation was clearly race not religion.

Actually, it could have gone either way. The context was unclear as to whether he was speaking of Jews racially or Jews religiously, so I went with the one that seemed the most likely given the rest of his statement: religious Jews.

If I was incorrect in that assumption, he can feel free to correct me on that, but he hasn't, and I'll thank you to let him handle his own quotes and responses

You then fail to recognize that Jews for Jesus are the ONE exception yet go on to say they are Christian.

They aren't an exception, they just aren't Jews They call themselves Jews, but an honest look at them and their organization shows that they are not.

If a "jew" doesn't belong to "jews for Jesus" then he can't be a Christian?

Can you point out where I said that?

See where your statement makes no sense and is confusing? Perhaps if the word jew wasn't thrown around so loosely you would of been able to stay on the subject a little better and not drifted off so far from the original question.

The original question was who is the "true Israel", I don't see how discussing who is the true Israel is off-topic...

But yes, I see that I'm not a fantastic orator. I write what I think, and I think stream-of-conscious, so that is how I write. Sure, that makes it a bit random at times, but it is how I think, it is a part of who I am, and I have no intention on changing that

 

[QuestionTime]

Okay, I just thought with that type of drastic statement of Israeli's not being Jews you might have some Scripture to support that.

I'm curious how YOU would determine what tribe anyone is from anyway, seeing as most Jews don't even know what tribe they are from.

I'm sorry but it is not possible to provide you with such a scripture. Why? Because the Bible already says in the Old Testament that the Jews were Judah, Benjamin and Levi. The Israelites were the remaining tribes in the north. There is no where - that I am aware of - in the Old Testament where the Northern Tribes were called Jews. Why would there be? As well, all of God's promises for the New Covenant in the prophets, are all made to both Israel and Judah. The promises are made to both tribes. They are never combined as one nation in the promises, that I am aware of.

What is not necessary is for me to provide a scripture to prove this. What is necessary is for a scripture to be provided that refutes what the Old Testament already claims. Is there a verse in the New Testament that speaks of the Northern Jews and the Southern Jews? The 10 Jewish tribes to the North and the 3 tribes to the South?

I don't understand why Paul said "first Jew, then Gentile." But Paul's comment cannot refute the rest of scripture. Besides, God had "divorced" the Israelite tribes to the North. Perhaps after their divorce they were labeled by God as "Gentiles." Perhaps Paul could have easily changed the word he used "Jew" to "Israelite." But using the word Israelite wasn't beneficial because the Israelite tribes were not involved in the debate. It wasn't the Israelite tribes that were fighting Christianity trying to get everyone circumcised.

To the next question, if you look up information about British Israel, there are identifying markers for each of the tribes given in the Bible. The British Israel websites take all of this information and relate it to modern day flags, historical data, etc.. I am sorry but I am not well enough versed in this information to debate you. But I can provide you links to websites where you can find information on British Israel if you desire.

Quest

 

[Rogue]

Does anyone else find it interesting that after the accounts in 1 and 2 Kings, the other Israelite tribes are shown as being sent into captivity, and yet we never hear from them again?

The rest of the bible continues on with the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, yet the other Israelite tribes are not mentioned again.

 

[QuestionTime]

Found this interesting article:

According to the rabbis, the "Lost Ten Tribes" are for all intents and purposes "Gentiles." This information constitutes further proof that the "Lost Ten Tribes" are not those diverse claimants (African, Indians, Burmese) who maintain remnants of Judaism from somebody's former conversion or contact with the religion of Judaism.

Such truly Gentile claimants, unlike the Anglo-Saxons and white Northwestern Europeans, don't bear a single biblical birthmark of fulfilled prophecy.

Joseph was an international leader and a feeder of the nations -- not some impoverished people in a jungle looking for a better life in this material world. Besides, Joseph isn't Jewish!
The birthmarks of fulfilled biblical prophecies include, as the Jerusalem-based Brit Am Israel organization teaches:

According to the Bible ten out of the twelve tribes of Israel split away (1 Kings 12:19), formed their own kingdom of "Israel" (1 Kings 12:20) and were exiled by the Assyrians (2 Kings 17:18). They forget their identity (Hosea 1:9, 7:8; Isaiah 49:21) and became the Lost Ten Tribes. In the future they will re-unite with the Jews (Ezekiel 37; Isaiah 11:13; Jeremiah 3:18) of "Judah", but until then they have a role of their own to fulfill. They were destined to be situated at the continental extremities of the earth such as North America, the British Isles, Scandinavia, the Netherlands, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa (Deuteronomy 33:13; Isaiah 24:16, 26:15, 41:8-9, 49:6), to be the richest (Genesis 27:28, 49:25; Deuteronomy 33:13-16; Hosea 2:8), and most powerful (Numbers 24:8-7; Micah 5:7-9) nations on earth and to control major international strategic bases (Genesis 22:16-17, 24:60). All of these points together with numerous others show that descendants of the Lost Ten Tribes can only be found amongst Western Nations, especially the English-speaking ones.

Quest

 

[QuestionTime]

Does anyone else find it interesting that after the accounts in 1 and 2 Kings, the other Israelite tribes are shown as being sent into captivity, and yet we never hear from them again?

The rest of the bible continues on with the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, yet the other Israelite tribes are not mentioned again.

They are mentioned in the prophets, so far as God promising to bring them under the New Covenant. But elsewhere in scripture God promised that Israel would be a blessing to the world. I am uncertain how modern day Israel has been a blessing to the world. If anything the entire world is in danger because of their existence.

But Great Britain and the USA have blessed the world tremendously with better living standards, aid to poor countries - and most importantly - they have blessed the world by sending out missionaries all over the globe to preach the gospel!!!

Personally I cannot understand how our nations - Great Britain and the USA - can be so long and solidly established in Christianity, if we are not Israelite nations. Also, Jesus said this to Judah:

Matthew 21:43 (King James Version)
43Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Anyway, other people may not believe this but I personally do. It really makes no difference if it be true or not however, as it doesn't affect God's work on earth or in our lives. It's just very interesting information.

Sadly many people that hold to this teaching don't care about holiness. They feel somehow that they are going to heaven just because they are Israelites, which the Pharisees also thought they would go to heaven being Abraham's descendants. Jesus of course said this wasn't true.

Quest