Israel

[Shwagga]

Tut Tut Tut, I think you should read again... shwagga.?

But I must admit I had to laugh at your replacement theology jibe, it did make laugh at the ignorant statement. I suggest you reread and then maybe do it again....

One question shwagga.. who is the ultimate seed of Abraham? it is a very simple question?

But again you did make my day shwagga with your thought of replacement theology ha ha ha..

Well I am glad you found it funny, however Paul makes it very clear who Israel is, you're reformed so you know Romans 9 better than most! Let's go through the first few verses.

Romans 9
1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit,
2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart.
3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh,
4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises;
5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

I mean honestly, Phil.. "My countrymen according to the FLESH WHO ARE ISRAELITES, To whom PERTAIN THE ADOPTION, THE GLORY, ... Not to write the whole passage over again, but I don't think you can honestly read this with a replacement theology view, unless you are reading through theological lenses in which case you would need to understand Scriptures makes theology, not theology makes Scripture.

After reading Paul's words, how you could ever argue physical remnant Israel is not Israel? Paul is very clear in Romans 11 as well, DO NOT LET PRIDE COME IN BECAUSE YOU WERE GRAFTED IN. It's almost a direct warning to your theological approach, don't let any pride come in the way, he even goes as far to say do not be ignorant concerning this mystery.

Now,
The seed of Abraham is our/and Israel's Messiah.

 

[phil36]

Regarding the 10 lost tribes, the punishment prescribed by God on the Israelites was Assyrian captivity and unlike the
Babylonian captivity, God never promised that they could return to their land, in fact it suggests they would be destroyed.

The 10 lost tribes theory is based upon an idea that 10 largely intact and whole tribes moved as a people group out of Assyrian and then onto Europe and various places. I just don't think it is likely considering that Assyrian captivity was particularly harsh, in all probability some of the 10 "lost" tribes were intermarried out of their own national identity and others destroyed/killed.

Today, unbelieving Israel is the Jews, regardless of race or nationality, and believing Israel is believing Jews, either Messianic or Christian. Most people descended from the 10 lost tribes would be Muslims living in the caucases and asiatic regions.

Thats a very good and valid point Mahogony.

Phil

 

[phil36]

Well I am glad you found it funny, however Paul makes it very clear who Israel is, you're reformed so you know Romans 9 better than most! Let's go through the first few verses.

Romans 9
1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit,
2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart.
3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh,
4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises;
5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

I mean honestly, Phil.. "My countrymen according to the FLESH WHO ARE ISRAELITES, To whom PERTAIN THE ADOPTION, THE GLORY, ... Not to write the whole passage over again, but I don't think you can honestly read this with a replacement theology view, unless you are reading through theological lenses in which case you would need to understand Scriptures makes theology, not theology makes Scripture.

After reading Paul's words, how you could ever argue physical remnant Israel is not Israel? Paul is very clear in Romans 11 as well, DO NOT LET PRIDE COME IN BECAUSE YOU WERE GRAFTED IN. It's almost a direct warning to your theological approach, don't let any pride come in the way, he even goes as far to say do not be ignorant concerning this mystery.

Now,
The seed of Abraham is our/and Israel's Messiah.

I am amzed that you keep talking about replacement theology, c'mon, get a brain.. reformed theology is not replacement theology!!!! yes we where grafted in of course we where, anyone who says we are not well, i wont say but yest the bad branches where broken of, and us wild branches where grafted in to enjoy the blessings.

 

[Shwagga]

I am amzed that you keep talking about replacement theology, c'mon, get a brain.. reformed theology is not replacement theology!!!! yes we where grafted in of course we where, anyone who says we are not well, i wont say but yest the bad branches where broken of, and us wild branches where grafted in to enjoy the blessings.

Yes but Covenant theology which i believe you said you hold to is VERY similar and only a little less anti-semitic.

 

[Shwagga]

Maybe I am mistaken, can you give a brief explanation of Covenant Theology? From what I understand replacement theology which I know more about, is often confused with Covenant theology, just a few minor differences.

Edit: Maybe I got it confused with reformed predestination, anti-semitic was the wrong word more like anti-human. Predestining 2/3 of the human race to hell.

 

[phil36]

I have a question for you regarding the 144,000. beloew is a statement, to which I would love to see your answer.. (the words are not mine)

Rev. 7:4–8 The selection and order of the 12 tribes suggest that the 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel have symbolic significance, representing the church (however, see note on vv. 1–17 for an alternative view). These are not Jacob's sons, for Dan is omitted and Manasseh included. They are not the tribes that inherited land in Canaan, for Dan is omitted, Levi (the priestly tribe) is included, and Joseph is listed instead of his son Ephraim. Judah, the tribe of the Messiah (5:5), appears first rather than Reuben, the firstborn. When 7:5–8 is compared with the list of Jacob's sons in Gen. 35:22–26, the promotion of tribes descended from concubines Bilhah and Zilpah (Gad, Asher, Naphtali) over the sons of Leah and Rachel suggests that those once excluded from privilege are now included. The number 12,000 reappears in the dimensions of the new Jerusalem (Rev. 21:16). Indeed, the number 144,000 (12 x 12 x 1,000) suggests symbolism here, but that does not necessarily decide the question of whether “Israel” is also a symbol for the church, or is intended to refer to literal, ethnic Israel

 

[Shwagga]

I have a question for you regarding the 144,000. beloew is a statement, to which I would love to see your answer.. (the words are not mine)

Rev. 7:4–8 The selection and order of the 12 tribes suggest that the 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel have symbolic significance, representing the church (however, see note on vv. 1–17 for an alternative view). These are not Jacob's sons, for Dan is omitted and Manasseh included. They are not the tribes that inherited land in Canaan, for Dan is omitted, Levi (the priestly tribe) is included, and Joseph is listed instead of his son Ephraim. Judah, the tribe of the Messiah (5:5), appears first rather than Reuben, the firstborn. When 7:5–8 is compared with the list of Jacob's sons in Gen. 35:22–26, the promotion of tribes descended from concubines Bilhah and Zilpah (Gad, Asher, Naphtali) over the sons of Leah and Rachel suggests that those once excluded from privilege are now included. The number 12,000 reappears in the dimensions of the new Jerusalem (Rev. 21:16). Indeed, the number 144,000 (12 x 12 x 1,000) suggests symbolism here, but that does not necessarily decide the question of whether “Israel” is also a symbol for the church, or is intended to refer to literal, ethnic Israel

Yes there is a lot of mysticism that comes out of commentaries of Revelation, one mistake you are making is confusing that statement with truth, being it's not God's word. I could just post a commentary that is not anti-Israel? If you'd like.

There is so much symbolism in Revelation, I really wouldn't even bother looking up a commentary for it because you will just end up some esoteric non-Biblical explanation. However, it is a nice put together theory, I must admit!

Maybe if I scrap together a bunch of bible verses, could I convince you Clinton is the anti-Christ ?

 

[phil36]

Ahh you see, why do people who do not know reformed theology , pretend to know what is and speak against it... know one is predestined to Hell, I really don't know where you get this from. maybe your confused and thinking of Hyper Calvinism, which would show your ignorance on the subject, even Calvinists reject Hyper Calvinism.

and reformed theology is not anti Semitic, that's a ridiculous statement to make, remember Calvinists dont follow Calvin. Just like Arminians don't follow Arminius.. hope that will start you on a path of learning before you start firing out misrepresentations. and there are more than a few differences in replacement theology with reformed thank you.

so lets say this again, reformed theology is not Anti-Semetic.... and reformed theology does not believe 2/3 of the human race are predestined to hell?

I hope that helps you a little shwagga

In Love

Phil

 

[Shwagga]

Ahh you see, why do people who do not know reformed theology , pretend to know what is and speak against it... know one is predestined to Hell, I really don't know where you get this from. maybe your confused and thinking of Hyper Calvinism, which would show your ignorance on the subject, even Calvinists reject Hyper Calvinism.

and reformed theology is not anti Semitic, that's a ridiculous statement to make, remember Calvinists dont follow Calvin. Just like Arminians don't follow Arminius.. hope that will start you on a path of learning before you start firing out misrepresentations. and there are more than a few differences in replacement theology with reformed thank you.

so lets say this again, reformed theology is not Anti-Semetic.... and reformed theology does not believe 2/3 of the human race are predestined to hell?

I hope that helps you a little shwagga

In Love

Phil

Well, actually the only consistency in ANY type of Calvinism is a hyper-Calvinist. To say no one is predestined to hell, is saying that there is a chance of them going to heaven, which you obviously refute. By the way I don't know why you assume anyone who is not a Calvinist is an Arminian (perhaps ignorance on your part), there are a lot of other theologies regarding salvation, for example Lutherans, and Messianic Jews. Two very different system, both different than Calvinism and Armenians.

I would ask you to please help me understand why people go to hell then. And do they have a choice not to go there?
Does the non-Elect have the ability to repent, believe, exercise faith?

 

[phil36]

Yes there is a lot of mysticism that comes out of commentaries of Revelation, one mistake you are making is confusing that statement with truth, being it's not God's word. I could just post a commentary that is not anti-Israel? If you'd like.

There is so much symbolism in Revelation, I really wouldn't even bother looking up a commentary for it because you will just end up some esoteric non-Biblical explanation. However, it is a nice put together theory, I must admit!

Maybe if I scrap together a bunch of bible verses, could I convince you Clinton is the anti-Christ ?

Now you are being silly. so you have come to your own conclusion with anyone ever telling you? I wish that I was as clever as you shwagga.. and for the more carefull reader the comment that I posted on Rev & are not anti jewish,, I though you could deduce that yourself, but obviously not

I love how you use words like non biblical,, I wish I had your knowledge, because you obviously have not read comentaries or listened and learned from preachers (which is commentary) and all from your own understanding direct from Scripture.. (as you seem to intimate) excellent..

However, I think your Jewish heritage is colouring your galsses. yes we Gentiles have been blessed by the fact that we have been in grafted into the vine.

But a word of advice before throwing stones you should learn what reformed theology is... mind you, I love how the Jewish People understood their relation to God in Covenantal terms I thought you of all would have realised this framework Shwagga??


In Love

Phil

 

[phil36]

Well, actually the only consistency in ANY type of Calvinism is a hyper-Calvinist. To say no one is predestined to hell, is saying that there is a chance of them going to heaven, which you obviously refute. By the way I don't know why you assume anyone who is not a Calvinist is an Arminian (perhaps ignorance on your part), there are a lot of other theologies regarding salvation, for example Lutherans, and Messianic Jews. Two very different system, both different than Calvinism and Armenians.

I would ask you to please help me understand why people go to hell then. And do they have a choice not to go there?
Does the non-Elect have the ability to repent, believe, exercise faith?

Mmmmmmm your ignoramce to the distinctio shines through shwagga. and yes there are Lutheran (related to reformed), I kind of guessed you where not Luthern

I love the term Messianic Jew? what does that mean please enlighten me shwagga, as it the term itself has always baffled me?

In Love

 

[Shwagga]

Mmmmmmm your ignoramce to the distinctio shines through shwagga. and yes there are Lutheran (related to reformed), I kind of guessed you where not Luthern

I love the term Messianic Jew? what does that mean please enlighten me shwagga, as it the term itself has always baffled me?

In Love

Messianic Jews, you know Paul, Peter, Jacob, John, ALL of the apostles? Jews who followed the Messiah ?

I'm guessing you meant the theology. There is no official theology for Messianic Jews as it's more of a ethnic title than a "denomination", but Messianic Judaism on the other hand is primarily practical Judaism who believers in the Messiah, what I meant by sects of Messianic Jews who include Torah keeping as a fruit of salvation, not that it brings salvation. I heard a quote once "we keep the Torah because we are redeemed, not to get redeemed", but I don't hold to that specific theology. I was just curious why you would automatically assume one is an Armenian because they don't hold to Calvinism. Not necessarily because I don't agree with a lot of their points, but was curious as to why you'd do that.

 

[1still_waters]

I sense emotions possibly escalating. Please be mindful. Thanks.

 

[Shwagga]

Now you are being silly. so you have come to your own conclusion with anyone ever telling you? I wish that I was as clever as you shwagga.. and for the more carefull reader the comment that I posted on Rev & are not anti jewish,, I though you could deduce that yourself, but obviously not

I love how you use words like non biblical,, I wish I had your knowledge, because you obviously have not read comentaries or listened and learned from preachers (which is commentary) and all from your own understanding direct from Scripture.. (as you seem to intimate) excellent..

However, I think your Jewish heritage is colouring your galsses. yes we Gentiles have been blessed by the fact that we have been in grafted into the vine.

But a word of advice before throwing stones you should learn what reformed theology is... mind you, I love how the Jewish People understood their relation to God in Covenantal terms I thought you of all would have realised this framework Shwagga??


In Love

Phil

The funny thing is just because you say "in love" after doesn't mean it erases all your insults and sarcasm, so although I appreciate that. It doesn't really do much AFTER you insult me time after time.

 

[phil36]

Im not insulting you shwagga, I apologise if you think I was.. the word 'ignorant' is not an insulting word, so when I say In Love I mean that. and when I mention 'silly' it was because I thought it was 'silly' to use and argument upon a theological basis when you obviously don't know what it is you are arguing against. that's all. again if you felt insulted I apologise again but no insult was intended.

In Love

Phil

 

[Shwagga]

Im not insulting you shwagga, I apologise if you think I was.. the word 'ignorant' is not an insulting word, so when I say In Love I mean that. and when I mention 'silly' it was because I thought it was 'silly' to use and argument upon a theological basis when you obviously don't know what it is you are arguing against. that's all. again if you felt insulted I apologise again but no insult was intended.

In Love

Phil

Just FYI, the word "ignorant" I didn't take as an insult, actually it wasn't even in the statement you made which I quoted. But as far as me not understanding Calvinism, to quote myself again,

"Would ask you to please help me understand why people go to hell then. And do they have a choice not to go there?
Do the non-Elect have the ability to repent, believe, exercise faith?"

Thanks,

Blessings!

 

[QuestionTime]

Ahh you see, why do people who do not know reformed theology , pretend to know what is and speak against it... know one is predestined to Hell, I really don't know where you get this from. maybe your confused and thinking of Hyper Calvinism, which would show your ignorance on the subject, even Calvinists reject Hyper Calvinism.Phil

You say that no one is predestined to hell. But if they are denied the grace they need to be saved, it comes to one and the same thing:

5. This that decree of predestination. But methinks I hear one say, "This is not the predestination which I hold: I hold only the election of grace. What I believe is not more than this, -- that God,, before the foundation of the world, did elect a certain number of men to be justified, sanctified, and glorified. Now, all these will be saved, and none else; for the rest of mankind God leaves to themselves: So they follow the imaginations of their own hearts, which are only evil continually, and, waxing worse and worse, are at length justly punished with everlasting destruction."

6. Is this all the predestination which you hold? Consider; perhaps this is not all. Do not you believe God ordained them to this very thing" If so, you believe the whole degree; you hold predestination in the full sense which has been above described. But it may be you think you do not. Do not you then believe, God hardens the hearts of them that perish: Do not you believe, he (literally) hardened Pharaoh's heart; and that for this end he raised him up, or created him? Why, this amounts to just the same thing. If you believe Pharaoh, or any one man upon earth, was created for this end, -- to be ****ed, -- you hold all that has been said of predestination. And there is no need you should add, that God seconds his degree, which is supposed unchangeable and irresistible, by hardening the hearts of those vessels of wrath whom that decree had before fitted for destruction.

7. well, but it may be you do not believe even this; you do not hold any decree of reprobation; you do not think God decrees any man to be ****ed, not hardens, irresistibly fits him, for ****ation; you only say, "God eternally decreed, that all being dead in sin, he would say to some of the dry bones, Live, and to others he would not; that, consequently, these should be made alive, and those abide in death, -- these should glorify God by their salvation, and those by their destruction."

8. Is not this what you mean by the election of grace? If it be, I would ask one or two questions: Are any who are not thus elected saved? or were any, from the foundation of the world? Is it possible any man should be saved unless he be thus elected? If you say, "No," you are but where you was; you are not got one hair's breadth farther; you still believe, that, in consequence of an unchangeable, irresistible decree of God, the greater part of mankind abide in death, without any possibility of redemption; inasmuch as none can save them but God, and he will not save them. You believe he hath absolutely decreed not to save them; and what is this but decreeing to **** them? It is, in effect, neither more not less; it comes to the same thing; for if you are dead, and altogether unable to make yourself alive, then, if God has absolutely decreed he will make only others alive, and not you, he hath absolutely decreed your everlasting death; you are absolutely consigned to ****ation. So then, though you use softer words than some, you mean the self-same thing; and God's decree concerning the election of grace, according to your account of it, amounts to neither more nor less than what others call God's decree of reprobation.

9. Call it therefore by whatever name you please, election, preterition, predestination, or reprobation, it comes in the end to the same thing. The sense of all is plainly this, -- by virtue of an eternal, unchangeable, irresistible decree of God, on part of mankind are infallibly saved, and the rest infallibly ****ed; it being impossible that any of the former should be ****ed. or that any of the latter should be saved.

Quest

 

[phil36]

You say that no one is predestined to hell. But if they are denied the grace they need to be saved, it comes to one and the same thing:

5. This that decree of predestination. But methinks I hear one say, "This is not the predestination which I hold: I hold only the election of grace. What I believe is not more than this, -- that God,, before the foundation of the world, did elect a certain number of men to be justified, sanctified, and glorified. Now, all these will be saved, and none else; for the rest of mankind God leaves to themselves: So they follow the imaginations of their own hearts, which are only evil continually, and, waxing worse and worse, are at length justly punished with everlasting destruction."

6. Is this all the predestination which you hold? Consider; perhaps this is not all. Do not you believe God ordained them to this very thing" If so, you believe the whole degree; you hold predestination in the full sense which has been above described. But it may be you think you do not. Do not you then believe, God hardens the hearts of them that perish: Do not you believe, he (literally) hardened Pharaoh's heart; and that for this end he raised him up, or created him? Why, this amounts to just the same thing. If you believe Pharaoh, or any one man upon earth, was created for this end, -- to be ****ed, -- you hold all that has been said of predestination. And there is no need you should add, that God seconds his degree, which is supposed unchangeable and irresistible, by hardening the hearts of those vessels of wrath whom that decree had before fitted for destruction.

7. well, but it may be you do not believe even this; you do not hold any decree of reprobation; you do not think God decrees any man to be ****ed, not hardens, irresistibly fits him, for ****ation; you only say, "God eternally decreed, that all being dead in sin, he would say to some of the dry bones, Live, and to others he would not; that, consequently, these should be made alive, and those abide in death, -- these should glorify God by their salvation, and those by their destruction."

8. Is not this what you mean by the election of grace? If it be, I would ask one or two questions: Are any who are not thus elected saved? or were any, from the foundation of the world? Is it possible any man should be saved unless he be thus elected? If you say, "No," you are but where you was; you are not got one hair's breadth farther; you still believe, that, in consequence of an unchangeable, irresistible decree of God, the greater part of mankind abide in death, without any possibility of redemption; inasmuch as none can save them but God, and he will not save them. You believe he hath absolutely decreed not to save them; and what is this but decreeing to **** them? It is, in effect, neither more not less; it comes to the same thing; for if you are dead, and altogether unable to make yourself alive, then, if God has absolutely decreed he will make only others alive, and not you, he hath absolutely decreed your everlasting death; you are absolutely consigned to ****ation. So then, though you use softer words than some, you mean the self-same thing; and God's decree concerning the election of grace, according to your account of it, amounts to neither more nor less than what others call God's decree of reprobation.

9. Call it therefore by whatever name you please, election, preterition, predestination, or reprobation, it comes in the end to the same thing. The sense of all is plainly this, -- by virtue of an eternal, unchangeable, irresistible decree of God, on part of mankind are infallibly saved, and the rest infallibly ****ed; it being impossible that any of the former should be ****ed. or that any of the latter should be saved.

Quest

Just one question, when somone dies and they are not saved what happens?

 

[Rogue]

I know all of the OT is types and shadows of the greatness of the fullfilment of time?

If that is seriously all the Tanakh is to you, then you didn't read it very carefully. That, or you believe God is deceptive and crafty (the bad kind of crafty).

 

[Rogue]

Messianic Jews, you know Paul, Peter, Jacob, John, ALL of the apostles? Jews who followed the Messiah ?

I'm guessing you meant the theology. There is no official theology for Messianic Jews as it's more of a ethnic title than a "denomination", but Messianic Judaism on the other hand is primarily practical Judaism who believers in the Messiah, what I meant by sects of Messianic Jews who include Torah keeping as a fruit of salvation, not that it brings salvation. I heard a quote once "we keep the Torah because we are redeemed, not to get redeemed", but I don't hold to that specific theology. I was just curious why you would automatically assume one is an Armenian because they don't hold to Calvinism. Not necessarily because I don't agree with a lot of their points, but was curious as to why you'd do that.

I love your description of Messianic Judaism! It is completely spot-on

The "official theology" of Messianic Judaism is simply Jews (i.e. people who actually follow the Jewish religion) who believe Jesus is the Messiah. So groups like "Jews for Jesus" are Christians, not Messianic as they claim.