Israel

[MahogonySnail]

Regarding the 10 lost tribes, the punishment prescribed by God on the Israelites was Assyrian captivity and unlike the
Babylonian captivity, God never promised that they could return to their land, in fact it suggests they would be destroyed.

The 10 lost tribes theory is based upon an idea that 10 largely intact and whole tribes moved as a people group out of Assyrian and then onto Europe and various places. I just don't think it is likely considering that Assyrian captivity was particularly harsh, in all probability some of the 10 "lost" tribes were intermarried out of their own national identity and others destroyed/killed.

Today, unbelieving Israel is the Jews, regardless of race or nationality, and believing Israel is believing Jews, either Messianic or Christian. Most people descended from the 10 lost tribes would be Muslims living in the caucases and asiatic regions.

 

[Pete_Martinez]

Act 26:7 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.

 

[miktre]

Actually, it could have gone either way. The context was unclear as to whether he was speaking of Jews racially or Jews religiously, so I went with the one that seemed the most likely given the rest of his statement: religious Jews.

It was pretty clear

If I was incorrect in that assumption, he can feel free to correct me on that, but he hasn't, and I'll thank you to let him handle his own quotes and responses

Not an assumption, it was cut and dry. Your response is the only thing that left confusion whether it a question of race or religion.

Can you point out where I said that?

You said the ONE exception was Messianic Jews and then go on to say Jews for Jesus are the ONE exception. Your posts made no sense so you can't expect me to make heads or tails of it.

The original question was who is the "true Israel", I don't see how discussing who is the true Israel is off-topic...

The original topic and the question you answered were two different things.

But yes, I see that I'm not a fantastic orator. I write what I think, and I think stream-of-conscious, so that is how I write. Sure, that makes it a bit random at times, but it is how I think, it is a part of who I am, and I have no intention on changing that

Not asking you to change simply pointing out your response made no sense whatsoever.

 

[livingbygrace]

Well to clear up any confusion by what I may have asked. I(maybe naively) have thought that all Jews would be religious. I just wondered how many Jews would be considered Christian, believing Christ to be the Messiah as against those who wouldn't and just believe him to be a prophet. I hope that clears up any confusion.

 

[miktre]

Well to clear up any confusion by what I may have asked. I(maybe naively) have thought that all Jews would be religious. I just wondered how many Jews would be considered Christian, believing Christ to be the Messiah as against those who wouldn't and just believe him to be a prophet. I hope that clears up any confusion.

Exactly, confusion on top of confusion equaled more confusion. None left the wiser.

Answer: None, nobodies religion can be jewish and Christian.
If you believe Christ was Lord and Savior then you are not a religious Jew.

 

[livingbygrace]

Exactly, confusion on top of confusion equaled more confusion. None left the wiser.

Answer: None, nobodies religion can be jewish and Christian.
If you believe Christ was Lord and Savior then you are not a religious Jew.

Now I am even more confused(maybe it is me lol) I simply wanted to know how many people born as physical jews believed in Christ as the Messiah. I sincerely am sorry if I have been the cause of confusion by asking this

 

[QuestionTime]

The Samaritan woman was part of the lost tribes. She was not referred to as a "Jew" but she fits under the grouping of gentiles, because God divorced them.

I found this article below here: The Samaritan Woman at the Well

The purpose of this lesson is to take a closer look at the dialogue
between Jesus and the Samaritan woman and reveal the prophetic message
within. Samaria is part of the Northern Tribe, Ephraim. Isaiah 7:9 9 The head of Ephraim is Samaria , and the head of Samaria is Remaliah's
son. If you do not stand firm in your faith, you will not stand at all.'" Ephraim went into captivity (separate from the tribe of Judah, the Jews).
They became not only a “lost tribe” but also Gentiles as they intermarried
with heathen foreign nations and did not keep their bloodlines pure.
For this, Samaritans are hated by Jews (House of Judah); who did not
intermarry after their captivity. When the Northern Tribes went into
captivity they were divorced by God, as God broke covenant with them
(Jeremiah 3). Jesus (God in human form) has now come to die and be
resurrected to allow the Samaritans (all lost northern tribes) to remarry
Him once again. He can also be the "husband" for all people of this world,
but the story found in John 4 has a message for these Northern Tribes.
This is just a small piece of the mystery of Christ and
His Church who are the body of believers.

It looks like a great read. The Samaritan woman was a gentile because God divorced Israel and said that they are "not my people."

Quest

 

[QuestionTime]

Okay, I just thought with that type of drastic statement of Israeli's not being Jews you might have some Scripture to support that.

I'm curious how YOU would determine what tribe anyone is from anyway, seeing as most Jews don't even know what tribe they are from.

Actually I did find a scripture to prove this, and it's the Samaritan woman at the well. She is from the lost 10 tribes and she is not called a Jew.

John 4:12
Are you greater than our father Jacob who gave us this well…?

Quest

 

[QuestionTime]

This is from the article I linked to above. Wow!!!

Quest

John 4:17&18 17.The woman answered and said, “I have no husband.” Jesus said to her,
“You have well said, ‘I have no husband,’

18.“for you have five husbands, and the one you have now is not your
husband; in that you spoke truly. If symbolically this woman represents the “lost” tribes...
then who are the husbands they committed adultery with? Answer: The five husbands who they committed adultery with ARE the god’s of the
five kingdoms, who have fallen (Rev. 17:10). Theses are the god’s of: 1. Egypt 2. Assyria 3. Babylon 4. Medo-Persia 5. Greece Therefore their marriages with these adulterous kingdoms are over because
these (husband) kingdoms are dead. Now they are free to re-marry.
The marriages to these kingdoms were adulterous because they worshipped
the god’s of these kingdoms and left the True God, the God of Abraham,
Isaac, and Jacob. Jesus is trying to tell the Samaritan woman that shortly, the Samaritans
will be able to receive the “living water” if they choose to marry the
resurrected Christ.

 

[Shwagga]

Actually I did find a scripture to prove this, and it's the Samaritan woman at the well. She is from the lost 10 tribes and she is not called a Jew.

Quest

John 4? She is a Samaritan, from what I understand they are half Jew and half Gentile, even then, even if that's not true there was a distinction and they were not called Gentiles.

Mt 10:5
These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

(Note, the Samaritans weren't classified as Israel either, in that Scripture at least.)

 

[QuestionTime]

John 4? She is a Samaritan, from what I understand they are half Jew and half Gentile, even then, even if that's not true there was a distinction and they were not called Gentiles.

Mt 10:5
These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

(Note, the Samaritans weren't classified as Israel either, in that Scripture at least.)

Hmm... That is a difficult verse to deal with indeed. I wish I had more knowledge on the subject.

Quest

 

[QuestionTime]

The problem is that there are a great many scriptural promises to the various tribes that have never been fulfilled by the people that claim to be Israel today.

Genesis 48:19 (King James Version)
19And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.

Now it is promised that "his seed shall become a multitude of nations." When has modern day Israel ever been a "multitude of nations?" Britain very well fits that description, as they are comprised of Australia, Canada, England, etc..

Talking to Jacob: "I will make thee exceeding fruitful" "And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south" "I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries., "I am the Eternal God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; and thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south..." "A nation and a company of nations shall come out of thee".

Quest

 

[phil36]

John 4? She is a Samaritan, from what I understand they are half Jew and half Gentile, even then, even if that's not true there was a distinction and they were not called Gentiles.

Mt 10:5
These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

(Note, the Samaritans weren't classified as Israel either, in that Scripture at least.)

This is correct about the Samaritan's, thats why it is important to know the Old Testament.. you find out why the Kingdom split in 2, and why the Samaritans where despised by the Jews.

Phil

 

[phil36]

The problem is that there are a great many scriptural promises to the various tribes that have never been fulfilled by the people that claim to be Israel today.

Genesis 48:19 (King James Version)
19And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.

Now it is promised that "his seed shall become a multitude of nations." When has modern day Israel ever been a "multitude of nations?" Britain very well fits that description, as they are comprised of Australia, Canada, England, etc..

Talking to Jacob: "I will make thee exceeding fruitful" "And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south" "I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries., "I am the Eternal God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; and thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south..." "A nation and a company of nations shall come out of thee".

Quest

And this is true, but these promises go back to Abraham etc. the ultimate seed is Christ, and the true blessing to the nations. nations did come from Abraham, Ismael is one and so is Isaac, you could also include the Samaritans in this as they are related to the true nation. once Christ came He fulfilled all the promises to Abraham.

 

[Shwagga]

This is correct about the Samaritan's, thats why it is important to know the Old Testament.. you find out why the Kingdom split in 2, and why the Samaritans where despised by the Jews.

Phil

Well as much as I agree with you here Phil, I'm afraid if we *knew the Old Testament* we wouldn't need to raise the question who Israel is.

 

[phil36]

The british Isrealism really start in the 19th century, and although it soundsd great it bore out of British imperialism, infact the tenets are those of the Orange Lodge. this BI spread to the states. It was never really a denomination in itself but drew many from different denominations but now, the world federation of the Church of God (I think thats their title) have taken it as their theological grounding.

However, it makes no difference even if it is true (remember it is only a theory), as Christ is the seed and the blessing to all nations not the Jews!!! Historically speaking the world was populated before the dispersion of the Jews. Infact a good chunlk of the world was populated before the founding of Israel. so to say nations where founded by the lost tribes is a bit far fetched, and, biblically, is not sound theology, considering the emphaizes placed on the BI theology pertaing to the rites of these countries.

phil

 

[phil36]

Well as much as I agree with you here Phil, I'm afraid if we *knew the Old Testament* we wouldn't need to raise the question who Israel is.

thats not a true assumption on the question, as you can see most people have alot of differing views and most don't even know why the kingdom split and how the Samaritan came about yet they can give you fanciful ideas of who they are. so I disagree with you shwagga!

And secondly it is important for an eschatological view of end times. how does BI theology fit?

Thirdly, who ultimately does the the promissory covenant of Abraham point to and is fulfilled in.

Phil

 

[Shwagga]

thats not a true assumption on the question, as you can see most people have alot of differing views and most don't even know why the kingdom split and how the Samaritan came about yet they can give you fanciful ideas of who they are. so I disagree with you shwagga!

And secondly it is important for an eschatological view of end times. how does BI theology fit?

Thirdly, who ultimately does the the promissory covenant of Abraham point to and is fulfilled in.

Phil

I would encourage you to read the *old testament* again Phil and take not of all the times God is speaking to Israel, you will find out, mysteriously, never once He ever refers to Gentiles. Surprising isn't it? I wonder how they come up with these crazy Covenant theology/replacement theology theories.

Biological Israel fits in a number of ways, first in Romans 11, once the fullness of the Gentiles comes, Israel's eyes will be opened and they will acknowledge Messiah and say "blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord".

Romans 11
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved.........

How you would EVER come to a replacement theology view after reading Scripture, blows my mind. However, a second reason how Israel is important in Aharit Hayamim (the end days), is found in Revelation, 144,000 biological Jews (even list their tribe for you )

In response to your third objection, ALL of the Tanakh points directly to our Messiah. Not just one or two Covenants.

 

[phil36]

I would encourage you to read the *old testament* again Phil and take not of all the times God is speaking to Israel, you will find out, mysteriously, never once He ever refers to Gentiles. Surprising isn't it? I wonder how they come up with these crazy Covenant theology/replacement theology theories.

Biological Israel fits in a number of ways, first in Romans 11, once the fullness of the Gentiles comes, Israel's eyes will be opened and they will acknowledge Messiah and say "blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord".

Romans 11
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved.........

How you would EVER come to a replacement theology view after reading Scripture, blows my mind. However, a second reason how Israel is important in Aharit Hayamim (the end days), is found in Revelation, 144,000 biological Jews (even list their tribe for you )

In response to your third objection, ALL of the Tanakh points directly to our Messiah. Not just one or two Covenants.

Tut Tut Tut, I think you should read again... shwagga.?

But I must admit I had to laugh at your replacement theology jibe, it did make laugh at the ignorant statement. I suggest you reread and then maybe do it again....

One question shwagga.. who is the ultimate seed of Abraham? it is a very simple question?

But again you did make my day shwagga with your thought of replacement theology ha ha ha..

 

[phil36]

and shwagga I thought you would be wise enough to know that I know all of the OT is types and shadows of the greatness of the fullfilment of time? I thought that was a silly comment to make.. a sort of cheap shot.

Phil