It's the blood of the Lamb

[eternally-gratefull]

I honestly have no idea how did you get to the conclusion that I endorse willful sin in my post... I just said that every man fell short of the glory of God at some point. I guess you got me wrong from the start so I best dont write further on it. GBY

it is their first response to those who trust God in faith.

they say we excuse sin, When in reality it is they who are excusing sin, They do not see the sin they do commit, so excuse it, With things like it is not bad, or I did not mean to do it, so it is not sin.

 

[Brainfreeze]

lol. then the scripture lied when it said for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

And like I said, if they were perfect. then they did not need Christ. They saved themselves. No where in scripture will you find this

He was complete. The question is, was he complete in his faith in God. or complete in his perfect adherance to the law (which no one has done but Christ)

I'm not going to debate or argue... Job might've punched a kids lights out when he was younger, .. Idk, but once walking with Christ/God, he walked righteously and did Gods will. Job grew to be a servant and pleased God. Once following Christ we are called to be perfect, as He is perfect. Scripture never lies EG

 

[SoulWeaver]

@gratefull: I dont believe Brainfreeze has a bad intent here, he is trying to clear things up for himself, he just picked a very deep question to debate (hope nobody is harmed in the process). I pray in Jesus name somebody will provide him with God-led answer that will nourish him and all of us. amen
This is one of these topics where there are seeming contradictions but God reconciles them into one and confounds all men.
There is preordination, and then there is also our free will. Both are true according to the Scriptures.
God confounds us when we try to debate about it... He is God...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm not going to debate or argue... Job might've punched a kids lights out when he was younger, .. Idk, but once walking with Christ/God, he walked righteously and did Gods will. Job grew to be a servant and pleased God. Once following Christ we are called to be perfect, as He is perfect. Scripture never lies EG

1. the word perfect means mature, or blameless (in a corrupt society) not sinless perfect.
2. Those born of God WILL change, Some more than others, some faster than others, but they will change, You can not resist the chastening of God.
3. It is not how we act which saves us, It is whether we are saved or not with will determine how we react. But we will never be sinless. John makes it clear. if we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and there is no truth in us.

your right, scripture never lies, I just pray you take all of scripture, and see what it says, and not just pick and chose certain passages or verses to support a theory.

 

[Brainfreeze]

If we DO righteousness then we are righteous.

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

How do we DO righteousness? Simple. We obey God.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

There are two roads we can take. We either sin unto death or we obey unto righteousness. It is very simple.

Righteousness leads to holiness (Rom 6:19) the end of which is eternal life (Rom 6:22). Thus eternal life is THROUGH abiding in Jesus Christ (Rom 6:23) because we are made the righteousness of God IN Him (2Cor 5:21) via abiding in the Spirit of His life (Rom 8:2-4).

This is all a manifest reality. The positional transaction gospel is a deceptive substitute which damns those who buy into it because it negates truly coming to Christ.

It is simple skinski, not for some though.. Some want the flesh and the spirit.. We can't serve two masters, we will hate one and love the other, anything else is a confused heart.

 

[kennethcadwell]

To be perfect as the bible speaks of is walking in love.
We are called to love all under the new covenant, including our enemies. To walk in love you fulfill all that was asked of us to be perfect. It has nothing to do with walking a sin free life, the difference in a believer is we do not walk in willful sin. We may back slide or slip up from time to time, but we have a just Lord that when we ask forgiveness of those sins we will be forgiven. We are molded to perfection through our Lord by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, but we will not reach a complete sin free perfection tell the regeneration. Changing from our physical bodies to our spiritual bodies at the rapture.

 

[SeaBass]

You ought to reject your notion of "being covered by Christ's perfect righteousness."

Putting on Jesus is a figurative way to express what it means to abide in the Spirit of His life.

Here is what the Bible teaches...

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Why are we no longer under the law? Because of this...

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

The law could only ever reform the outward man through rules and regulations. The law did not reform the heart. The heart is only reformed through the Spirit from which the law is but a shadow.

Faith works by love and love fulfills the law. Hence if we truly love we don't murder, cheat, steal, lust, either inwardly or outwardly. It is in this manifest state of true faith that we no longer need the law because we are instead inwardly governed by the law of love and love does not produce evil.

Thus it is by abiding in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ (through which the love of God is shed abroad unrestrained in our hearts) that we abide in and fulfill righteousness. There is no Jesus cloak, only a Jesus transformation.

Flee the concepts developed by the popular theologians and instead just use the Bible. Keep it simple and you cannot go wrong. "Imputed Righteousness of Christ" is a modern theological construct and is therefore loaded terminology. Even if you don't hold to the definition held by Calvinism, by using the term you are alluding are appealing to a mental picture in the minds of many who do hold the Calvinist definition and are thus being lured into a debate within their erroneous framework as opposed to the simplicity of the Bible.

Gal 3:27 "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

The Greek word for "put on" is endyo and means putting on clothes. Strong's says it means "to sink into (clothing), clothe one's self". So the idea Paul is putting forth is when one is baptize into Christ they put on Christ, put on Christ's righteousness, holiness....one's life is clothed with the qualities of Christ.

Some at Galatia had left Christ's NT gospel and returned to the OT law thinking they could be justified by being circumcised. Paul reminds them the OT was just a schoolmaster to bring them to Christ. Why no longer under a schoolmaster "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus." How did they become children of God by faith in Christ? "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

One not in Christ cannot serve in newness of spirit. In this context of Rom 7 Paul is contrasting the OT law form the NT law.
"Oldness of the letter" refers to the old law of Moses while "serve newness of spirit" refers to life in Christ under the NT law. Paul is telling the Jews they cannot keep both the OT law and NT law at the same time for that is like a woman trying to keep two husbands at the same time. But through Christ's death they had been discharged from the law of Moses to live under Christ's NT law, (1 Cor 9:21). They had been discharged from the old law that required flawless law-keeping to being in Christ where they can be spotless and blameless (Eph 1:4) and be covered by Christ's righteousness even though they still sinned.

 

[elf3]

I thought you were finished like Ms. Joide ? You keep talking about diluted blood, what is this your speaking of ? Who's adding anything ? If we follow the Spirit we will learn to die to flesh, it's written all over the scriptures sir.

Huh? I never said I was done. I was agreeing about the OP.

 

[Brainfreeze]

Yes, soulweaver, I don't want to intrude on anyone's walk with Christ. I was a wretched man, lower then most, I walked with " the big dogs " so to speak.. When God saved me from my old self, I can do nothing but be thankful, I was headed for certain death. Now my life is love, to walk in love is righteousness, to be obedient to God. Narrow is the way, that's specific. How can we keep backsliding if our eyes are on Jesus. How can I blatantly do sin or fall for anything, if I've been there, I know the games that satan plays ? If I have Jesus in my heart, how can I be disrespectful to any of you ? I can't, that's the heart Jesus gave me and I let it shine. I'm not saying that some christians won't backslide because I slid hard and fast at 17, but God has brought me to a place, where I'm stronger then before and wiser, how can I backslide ? I know what I can do at the drop of the hat, it's a choice I make to please God who I am grateful of. We will show with our hearts and soul how grateful we are of His Spirit.

 

[SoulWeaver]

Brainfreeze, for some people it is more of an instant change, but for others can be more gradual.
What I see in my life is that I am going forward, and not backward... He has plucked out many trees from my forest, and I see more clearly now some other trees that I couldnt even see in the beginning because my state of mind was so darkened.
He will be exposing sins that we werent noticing before and chastizing us as long as we live, it is a process. He is not satisfied or stopping when we think "oh now I'm fine and godly". He will keep chipping that stone to make a perfect jewel.

 

[Brainfreeze]

Brainfreeze, for some people it is more of an instant change, but for others can be more gradual.
What I see in my life is that I am going forward, and not backward... He has plucked out many trees from my forest, and I see more clearly now some other trees that I couldnt even see in the beginning because my state of mind was so darkened.
He will be exposing sins that we werent noticing before and chastizing us as long as we live, it is a process. He is not satisfied or stopping when we think "oh now I'm fine and godly". He will keep chipping that stone to make a perfect jewel.

When we make a promise to God it's best we go forward on our promise with Him to do as He wants us to do, and that's be love, be righteous,

 

[SoulWeaver]

Yes, which doesnt mean that I dont slip on the way here and there. Nobody is sinless. It's a journey which can have ups and downs but overall is going forward and we are never perfect (in works), only Jesus is perfect. Paul was God's chosen vessel and was closer to God than many, and still was aware of his imperfections...Romans 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

 

[Skinski7]

so, we know that Job was the second person who fulfilled the law, and made it to heaven of his own righteousness. And did not need Christ to die for him.

Is there any more people like this?

of course romans 3: 23 should let us know how well Job did according to Gods glorious standard. or am I misunderstanding paul?

This is a mischaracterisation.

Fulfilling the law via a faith that works by love has nothing to do with "not needing Jesus."

First of all Jesus is the light of the world that has appeared to all men. Jesus is the Logos of God, the word, the expression of God to all humanity. That word was made flesh and dwelt among us.

It is through Jesus Christ that our past sins are forgiven also. The Bible teaches that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin and the Bible speaks of how Jesus purchased the church with His blood.

You allude to Romans 3:23 which says this...

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

The context of that verse is this...

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Reconciliation to God is not through the deeds of the law because the deeds of the law cannot purge sin. Sin can only be purged through the blood of Jesus Christ. Redemption from both the condemnation and bondage of sin is through the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

We die to sin in repentance and this is what partaking in the baptism of repentance where we die with Christ brings about. This defeats the bondage of sin for the root of rebellion is destroyed once and for all. We are then raised up to newness of life via the same Spirit that rose Jesus from the dead and are empowered to walk in victory over sin because we now abide in the Spirit of the life of Jesus. This is the Ministry of Reconciliation.

The false gospel uses presents Rom 3:23 often as an argument for perpetual sinning because they deny heart purity in their doctrine. We ought not repudiate what the Bible teaches on heart purity, it is what Jesus taught and it is the standard God requires. Our hearts must be clean.

 

[Skinski7]

I'm done - but I really liked the reason for this thread which was for us to meditate and comment on the blood of Christ.

The OP in this thread is premised on a fallacy. Namely...

...Christ paid for sin and it is his righteousness that dwells within the believer and not their own.

Jesus did not pay for sin. Jesus paid for the church.

The debt for sin is freely forgiven by God without a payment of any kind. It is a forgiveness freely granted on the condition of repentance and faith.

In the parable of the unforgiving servant the debt that was owed was freely forgiven. When the forgiven servant chose to not forgive his fellow servant the debt was reinstated.

The Penal Substitution doctrine teaches that Jesus paid the sin debt in full and therefore it cannot be made due any more. It is a false teaching. First of all it teaches that Jesus only died for those who would be saved because the sin debt of the lost is not paid, secondly it teaches that one can keep sinning because the sin debt cannot be required again. It is a very dangerous doctrine.

Also the notion that the "righteousness of Jesus dwells in the believer and not our own" is a fallacy. Paul wrote this...

Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

The righteousness that the saints possess is a righteousness attained through a faith that works by love as opposed to a righteousness attained through the works of the law. It is very much our own righteousness, just not a righteousness of the law, rather it is of the faith of Christ. This is why Paul would state...

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

The contrast is between being outward regulation of conduct through rules and regulations or outward regulation of conduct through a pure heart yielded to God.

The claim that we possess a foreign righteousness positionally whilst still remaining a wretch carnal and sold under sin is a deception. It is a redressing of Satan's lie of "you can sin and not surely die." This lie is easily exposed in a lot of theology when it is examined as to whether the theology discards heart purity as being connected to saving faith, heart purity being connected to justification. If heart purity is rejected then the theology is clearly false.

 

[elf3]

This is a mischaracterisation.

Fulfilling the law via a faith that works by love has nothing to do with "not needing Jesus."

First of all Jesus is the light of the world that has appeared to all men. Jesus is the Logos of God, the word, the expression of God to all humanity. That word was made flesh and dwelt among us.

It is through Jesus Christ that our past sins are forgiven also. The Bible teaches that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin and the Bible speaks of how Jesus purchased the church with His blood.

You allude to Romans 3:23 which says this...

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

The context of that verse is this...

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Reconciliation to God is not through the deeds of the law because the deeds of the law cannot purge sin. Sin can only be purged through the blood of Jesus Christ. Redemption from both the condemnation and bondage of sin is through the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

We die to sin in repentance and this is what partaking in the baptism of repentance where we die with Christ brings about. This defeats the bondage of sin for the root of rebellion is destroyed once and for all. We are then raised up to newness of life via the same Spirit that rose Jesus from the dead and are empowered to walk in victory over sin because we now abide in the Spirit of the life of Jesus. This is the Ministry of Reconciliation.

The false gospel uses presents Rom 3:23 often as an argument for perpetual sinning because they deny heart purity in their doctrine. We ought not repudiate what the Bible teaches on heart purity, it is what Jesus taught and it is the standard God requires. Our hearts must be clean.

What you fail to admit is that we are not perfect yet. But when we come before God we will be seen as righteous because of the blood of Christ that covers us. We are in the time of sactification. The Holy Spirit working in our lives to bring us closer to God.

 

[Skinski7]

Originally Posted by Skinski7

You ought to reject your notion of "being covered by Christ's perfect righteousness."

Putting on Jesus is a figurative way to express what it means to abide in the Spirit of His life.

Here is what the Bible teaches...

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Why are we no longer under the law? Because of this...

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

The law could only ever reform the outward man through rules and regulations. The law did not reform the heart. The heart is only reformed through the Spirit from which the law is but a shadow.

Faith works by love and love fulfills the law. Hence if we truly love we don't murder, cheat, steal, lust, either inwardly or outwardly. It is in this manifest state of true faith that we no longer need the law because we are instead inwardly governed by the law of love and love does not produce evil.

Thus it is by abiding in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ (through which the love of God is shed abroad unrestrained in our hearts) that we abide in and fulfill righteousness. There is no Jesus cloak, only a Jesus transformation.

Flee the concepts developed by the popular theologians and instead just use the Bible. Keep it simple and you cannot go wrong. "Imputed Righteousness of Christ" is a modern theological construct and is therefore loaded terminology. Even if you don't hold to the definition held by Calvinism, by using the term you are alluding are appealing to a mental picture in the minds of many who do hold the Calvinist definition and are thus being lured into a debate within their erroneous framework as opposed to the simplicity of the Bible.

Gal 3:27 "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

The Greek word for "put on" is endyo and means putting on clothes. Strong's says it means "to sink into (clothing), clothe one's self". So the idea Paul is putting forth is when one is baptize into Christ they put on Christ, put on Christ's righteousness, holiness....one's life is clothed with the qualities of Christ.

Some at Galatia had left Christ's NT gospel and returned to the OT law thinking they could be justified by being circumcised. Paul reminds them the OT was just a schoolmaster to bring them to Christ. Why no longer under a schoolmaster "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus." How did they become children of God by faith in Christ? "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

One not in Christ cannot serve in newness of spirit. In this context of Rom 7 Paul is contrasting the OT law form the NT law.
"Oldness of the letter" refers to the old law of Moses while "serve newness of spirit" refers to life in Christ under the NT law. Paul is telling the Jews they cannot keep both the OT law and NT law at the same time for that is like a woman trying to keep two husbands at the same time. But through Christ's death they had been discharged from the law of Moses to live under Christ's NT law, (1 Cor 9:21). They had been discharged from the old law that required flawless law-keeping to being in Christ where they can be spotless and blameless (Eph 1:4) and be covered by Christ's righteousness even though they still sinned.

It appears you are ignoring heart purity in the equation. You are presenting the "righteousness of Christ" as some kind of covering which cloaks sin. Putting on Christ is abiding in the Spirit of His life and it is a MANIFEST STATE in the NOW.

The deliverance from the law is in the context of shifting from "outward regulation of conduct governed via the letter of the law" to an "inward regulation of conduct governed via abiding in the Spirit."

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

When Paul writes...

1Co 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

... the context is about his approach to both Jew and Gentile. He would not burden the Gentiles with the rites and rituals of the law yet when with the Jews he would not unburden them in the sense of speak against it. Paul understood that the real issue was the heart.

You responded to my post without actually addressing the issue which I bring up. That issue being that "imputed righteousness of Christ" is a loaded term invented by Calvinists. Even if you don't believe that the obedience of Jesus is credited to your account (maybe you do believe it? I don't know), by using that term you are appealing to the mental picture of the "transfer doctrine" which many people are deceived by.

We are to contend earnestly for the truth from the paradigm which the Bible exists in, not from a paradigm premised in error. I have seen you contend against OSAS many times on this forum from within the framework of error and your threads end up as proof text wars which go nowhere. Paul implored Timothy to avoid "oppositions of knowledge so called" and that means we are to avoid engaging in debate where the limits of the paradigm is error.

The entire OSAS vs nonOSAS is such a false paradigm. If people were to contend for a salvation where we are saved FROM sin instead of a salvation where we are saved IN sin then the entire OSAS issue goes away. If salvation is a present manifest state of abiding in the will of God and walking with a pure heart, to choose evil is clearly to leave that present manifest state. Thus any contention that OSAS is true is easily proved as error. There is no need to play the proof text game which leads nowhere.

I hope you can understand my sentiment.

 

[Skinski7]

What you fail to admit is that we are not perfect yet. But when we come before God we will be seen as righteous because of the blood of Christ that covers us. We are in the time of sactification. The Holy Spirit working in our lives to bring us closer to God.

When we come before God it will be as this scripture teaches...

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

The blood of Christ PURGES sin as much as it COVERS sin.

2Pe_1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Heb_1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
Heb 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Sin must be purged once and for all and Jesus is the means by which this takes place. We are to approach God via the blood of Jesus in order to be PURGED of our past transgression.

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

We enter into the Holiest of Holies which is representative of our most inward parts, our heart, the innermost part of our being. It is the part of us in which God is meant to dwell but we have defiled it through sin. We are the temple of God and God is to indwell the temple but God cannot indwell a filthy vessel. Thus we have to be sanctified and made ready through repentance and faith.

The sin that has defiled us inwardly has to be purged once and for all in order for reconciliation to take place between God and man.

When you claim we are not perfect yet you make no distinction between the sins of rebellion and a sins of ignorance. Sanctification is the purging of the sins of ignorance through growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ. Sins of rebellion damn you. That is why this warning is in the Bible...

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Willful sin nullifies the purging that has taken place in those whom have been sanctified by the blood. Willful sin brings a defilement whereby the sin has to be purged a second time and Jesus did not die so that the grace of God can be treated with contempt by utilising it over and over for temporary cleansing sessions. That approach is to mock God's mercy and God will not be mocked.

The false gospel teaches the opposite of the Bible. They teach that justification is purely positional and that the blood of Jesus CLOAKS ongoing wickedness. They then teach that sanctification is the process of serving wickedness less and less. That message is "ye can sin and not surely die" because you have a "sin cloak." There is no sin cloak in the Bible.

Our sins are covered only in the sense that we have had our hearts made clean. That is why David connects "no guile" to the "forgiveness of sins" in the passage which Paul quotes in Romans chapter 4.

Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Covered - epikaluptō
G1943
From G1909 and G2572; to conceal, that is, (figuratively) forgive: - cover.

Psa 32:1 A Psalm of David, Maschil. Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
Psa 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

The false gospel teaches a covering of sin without a purging of sin. Thus they don't warn people that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom because they think wickedness is merely covered via the cover of the legal transaction they teach. It is a fallacy.

 

[Brainfreeze]

Yes, which doesnt mean that I dont slip on the way here and there. Nobody is sinless. It's a journey which can have ups and downs but overall is going forward and we are never perfect (in works), only Jesus is perfect. Paul was God's chosen vessel and was closer to God than many, and still was aware of his imperfections...Romans 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

I appreciate your kind words and explanation sis, and yeah I would say we will still make a few bad decisions in life. I can't say we can go back to are old life styles of sinfulness. When we say we'll still slip and so forth, doesn't mean it's ok to break the Commandments, or live sinful lives, ya know ? We are no longer servants of sin and bondage, we are servants of righteousness of God and love.

 

[SoulWeaver]

I appreciate your kind words and explanation sis, and yeah I would say we will still make a few bad decisions in life. I can't say we can go back to are old life styles of sinfulness. When we say we'll still slip and so forth, doesn't mean it's ok to break the Commandments, or live sinful lives, ya know ? We are no longer servants of sin and bondage, we are servants of righteousness of God and love.

No doubt... no more going back to the vomit... But we are still being made holy in Him and might stumble on our path and make a mistake, His forgiveness and washing of the feet is for that, not for habitual engaging in badness... this is no "licence" for willful and perpetual evil. I think this might be the Scripture:

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

 

[Skinski7]

Yes, which doesnt mean that I dont slip on the way here and there.

What do you mean by slip up? Do you mean willful sin or sins of ignorance?

I challenge you to be specific on this matter.

The Bible teaches...

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Do you believe we can always take the way of escape?

The Bible says...

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

The children of God are MANIFEST by the fact that they do not sin and cannot sin. This means that they don't sin unto death, they no longer choose evil over good.

I fear that when you allude to "slipping up" you are alluding to the notion of "sin you will and sin you must." If you believe that "sin you will and sin you must" then surely you must believe that "you can sin and not surely die."

I make the distinction between sin unto death and sin not unto death. I make the distinction between obedience unto righteousness and disobedience unto unrighteousness. We cannot do both and expect to enter the kingdom. We are to choose this day whom we will serve, either sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness. There is no middle ground.

Nobody is sinless. It's a journey which can have ups and downs but overall is going forward and we are never perfect (in works), only Jesus is perfect. Paul was God's chosen vessel and was closer to God than many, and still was aware of his imperfections...Romans 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

Here you claim that salvation leaves you a wretch who is carnal and sold under sin. What kind of salvation is that? Are you not mocking God in saying that? Do you really believe that sin is more powerful than the grace of God and therefore you simply cannot stop serving sin?

Think about it.

Jesus said...

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Do those words mean nothing to you? Why do you deny being able to be set free indeed?

Paul's illustration of the wretch is in this state...

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

The wretch is a captive to sin. The wretch is carnal and sold under sin...

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

The wretch cannot do what is right...

Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

He cannot perform that which is good.

Do you really think that is salvation?

Do you really think that the salvation that the Creator of the universe offers is a salvation that leaves one as a filthy wretch still in slavery?

Use your mind and think about it. Jesus said if you commit sin you are its slave but that He can set us free indeed. It appears you don't believe that.

Paul writes IMMEDIATELY after the wretch passage these words...

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The wretch was trying to reform himself via the law and that does not work. It is the SPIRIT OF LIFE IN JESUS CHRIST which sets us free from sinning unto death. That is why Peter says...

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Do you think those who CEASE FROM SIN and no longer live the rest of their time in the flesh to the lusts of men are wretches who are carnal and sold under sin? Think about that. Why would Peter make such a statement if salvation left people as wretches who could not stop sinning unto death?

Peter wrote this...

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Had the wretch escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust? NO he had not. The law does not bring such an escape. It is only through the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ that we escape having died to sin in the baptism of repentance where our old man is crucified once and for all.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

These things are not taught by the false gospel teachers and their adherents. These scriptures are ignored and explained away as not meaning what they plainly state.

Practically every professing Christian I converse with today holds to the tenets that they are...

1. Romans wretches (Rom 7:14-28) - ie. sin you will and sin you must.
2. Always have sin (1Joh 1:8) - ie. sin you will and sin you must.
3. Nobody is perfect - ie. sin you will and sin you must.
4. All their righteousness is as filthy rags (Isa 64:6) - ie. they can never do the right thing and thus cannot be expected to.

Yet Jesus preached about heart purity and being saved FROM sin. The Bible from cover to cover contends for righteousness in the context of people DOING the right thing from a RIGHT MOTIVE.

Tenet 1. is in the context of a man under the law who cannot break his addiction to sin. Paul is using the Historical Present grammatical device to emphasise the point that the law cannot redeem someone. It is only the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ which can set us free.

Tenet 2. 1Joh 1:8 is presented in the context of claiming we have NEVER sinned. The context is in regards to how we are cleansed when we approach God in true repentance and come clean about our crimes before God. John is not contending for perpetual wickedness.

Tenet 3. The perfection God requires is moral perfection, ie. a pure heart. That is why Jesus said "be perfect and God is perfect" in Matthew 5. Jesus was not commanding people to do something which is impossible. By setting up a strawman of absolute perfection in the sense of never missing the mark (due to ignorance) the false teachers are able to throw heart purity as being necessary right out the window.

Tenet 4. Isaiah 64:6 is Isaiah identifying himself with Israel as a WHOLE, Israel as a NATION and speaking of their behalf. He is not making a statement that we cannot do the right thing.