James 2?

[Grandpa]

Feeding, clothing, protecting people and offering your child as a sacrifice, DOES NOT save anyone.

No they don't.

But they are by-products of salvation and loving God. Because we know the love of God and how he provides we try to emulate Him. Unsuccessfully in most cases but we still try.

Except the child sacrifice part...

James does reconcile with Paul its just that the extreme James was battling is just as wrong as the extreme that some make of James.

Faith without works is just as wrong as works without faith. Its at least as much an epidemic of people trying to emulate what they think is good enough to make it to heaven and people who think they can say one prayer and have no inner change but yet are saved.

2 Corinthians 3:5-6
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

 

[John146]

When do you think James was written? You need to just stop and become a student. Until you do you will not understand scripture because you are trying to make it fit a Pauline doctrine which is false.

James was written before the Pauline epistles, yet God has places the book of James after Paul's epistles, why? Maybe because they are meant for a group of people(the twelve tribes) that He specifically wanted to address after the rapture of the church. At this time, God turns His attention back to His physical people Israel to get them ready for the coming kingdom on earth.

You've got me all wrong...I am NOT trying to make James fit the doctrine set forth by the Holy Spirit through Paul, but just the opposite. They are written to different audiences in different dispensations.

 

[KJV1611]

James was written before the Pauline epistles, yet God has places the book of James after Paul's epistles, why? Maybe because they are meant for a group of people(the twelve tribes) that He specifically wanted to address after the rapture of the church. At this time, God turns His attention back to His physical people Israel to get them ready for the coming kingdom on earth.

You've got me all wrong...I am NOT trying to make James fit the doctrine set forth by the Holy Spirit through Paul, but just the opposite. They are written to different audiences in different dispensations.

There's is only one gospel.

 

[John146]

There's is only one gospel.

There's is only one gospel that saves the soul, the gospel of Jesus Christ. James is not about saving the soul, rather, saving the Jew physically through the tribulation. Look to Job as an example.

 

[garee]

James does reconcile with Paul its just that the extreme James was battling is just as wrong as the extreme that some make of James.

Its the same faith of, or generated by Christ working in both . The extreme would be trying to divide it as if it was not the same mutual faith of God that worked in both James and Paul to both will and do His good pleasure. .

 

[Scriptureplz]

James was written before the Pauline epistles, yet God has places the book of James after Paul's epistles, why? Maybe because they are meant for a group of people(the twelve tribes) that He specifically wanted to address after the rapture of the church. At this time, God turns His attention back to His physical people Israel to get them ready for the coming kingdom on earth.

You've got me all wrong...I am NOT trying to make James fit the doctrine set forth by the Holy Spirit through Paul, but just the opposite. They are written to different audiences in different dispensations.

I don't know if you know it or not but your comments are supportive of "ultra-dispensationalism" which is a false doctrine. No part of Gods Word was written only to people in the tribulation. Ultra dispensationalism teaches many things incorrectly, one of which is there are multiple ways people have been saved in history. This is definitely false teaching.

Using your logic concerning when books of the bible were written and how they are placed in order the gospel of John was written only to Israel for the tribulation as well. Even though It comes before Paul's epistles in the order of books of the bible.

 

[God4me]

No they don't.

But they are by-products of salvation and loving God. Because we know the love of God and how he provides we try to emulate Him. Unsuccessfully in most cases but we still try.

Except the child sacrifice part...

James does reconcile with Paul its just that the extreme James was battling is just as wrong as the extreme that some make of James.

Faith without works is just as wrong as works without faith. Its at least as much an epidemic of people trying to emulate what they think is good enough to make it to heaven and people who think they can say one prayer and have no inner change but yet are saved.

2 Corinthians 3:5-6
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Good works are a product of salvation, We do good works as Christians, NOT to become one.

 

[KJV1611]

There's is only one gospel that saves the soul, the gospel of Jesus Christ. James is not about saving the soul, rather, saving the Jew physically through the tribulation. Look to Job as an example.

I don't see anything in James that says anything about saving Jews in the tribulation, where did you get that from?

 

[God4me]

Where else would we get the faith from if not from God who has no form ?

Calvin is dead and we are not to have the faith of Christ in respect to other persons .This would include Calvin, Abraham or in respect to my own-self, as gods we could have before him.



Yes the faith of Christ, alone that worked in Abraham... just as it works in us to both will and do the good pleasure of our Savior. There is no difference he purifies the hearts of all men through his faith working in them .

No faith, no God. Know the faith of God, know the salvation he works in us.

Deuteronomy 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

The froward generation.The generation of Adam as in natural unconverted man.

The generation of Christ those who have the faith of Christ.

Everyone has enough faith and the free choice to either believe or not believe the gospel message, But Calvinist say those who are saved, is because God has given them the faith to be saved, and those who aren't saved, is because God hasn't given them the faith. And that makes God a respecter of people, And that makes Him a sinner.

 

[John146]

I don't know if you know it or not but your comments are supportive of "ultra-dispensationalism" which is a false doctrine. No part of Gods Word was written only to people in the tribulation. Ultra dispensationalism teaches many things incorrectly, one of which is there are multiple ways people have been saved in history. This is definitely false teaching.

Using your logic concerning when books of the bible were written and how they are placed in order the gospel of John was written only to Israel for the tribulation as well. Even though It comes before Paul's epistles in the order of books of the bible.

I'm just a regular dispensationalist. You're opinions are well noted, thank you. No part of God's word is for those in the tribulation? What's their direction? Should they keep from taking the mark of the beast?

There's only one way of eternal salvation and that is the shed blood of Jesus Christ. How Christ's blood is applied does differ. Before the cross, one needed to be obedient to God's word, whatever that may consist. After the cross, one needs just to believe on the gospel of the death, burial and resurrection.

Can you explain why the book of James is placed where it is? Mistake? Random placement? Doesn't matter?

 

[John146]

I don't see anything in James that says anything about saving Jews in the tribulation, where did you get that from?

When will the twelve tribes be scattered abroad? It's not talking about the diaspora in Acts 8 for sure because the twelve tribes were not scattered abroad.

James 5

1 Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.
2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten.
3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.

Being rich in the tribulation means you sold out to the anti-christ. Being rich in the Church Age is not a bad thing. Paul instructs those that are rich to use their riches for good.


7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

During the tribulation, the coming of the Lord is literally at hand with the Judge standing at the door ready to judge the nations. During the Church Age Paul says the Lord is seated at the right hand of the Father.

10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.
11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

Why Job? Job is a great example of one enduring great tribulation with patience and endurance with his end greater than his beginning.


17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.
Why Elijah? Elijah will be one of the witnesses during the 3 1/2 years of great tribulation causing it not to rain. Elijah is prophesied as coming before the Lord.

 

[KJV1611]

When will the twelve tribes be scattered abroad? It's not talking about the diaspora in Acts 8 for sure because the twelve tribes were not scattered abroad.

James 5

1 Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.
2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten.
3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.

Being rich in the tribulation means you sold out to the anti-christ. Being rich in the Church Age is not a bad thing. Paul instructs those that are rich to use their riches for good.


7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

During the tribulation, the coming of the Lord is literally at hand with the Judge standing at the door ready to judge the nations. During the Church Age Paul says the Lord is seated at the right hand of the Father.

10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.
11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

Why Job? Job is a great example of one enduring great tribulation with patience and endurance with his end greater than his beginning.


17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.
Why Elijah? Elijah will be one of the witnesses during the 3 1/2 years of great tribulation causing it not to rain. Elijah is prophesied as coming before the Lord.

Acts 2:5 KJV
And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

Aren't these the one James was writing to... Jews out of every nation under heaven? Keep in mind that James was writing an actual letter, he didn't know he was writing a book in the bible. If the letter was written to actual people alive in his day how could this be a letter specifically for Jews during the tribulation?

 

[John146]

Acts 2:5 KJV
And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

Aren't these the one James was writing to... Jews out of every nation under heaven? Keep in mind that James was writing an actual letter, he didn't know he was writing a book in the bible. If the letter was written to actual people alive in his day how could this be a letter specifically for Jews during the tribulation?

Paul was writing letters to believers back in his day, yet do you think the Lord can use Paul's letter's for a time after? James was writing with the twelve tribes in mind, yes, but because of the rejection of Jesus Christ as a whole nation, God sent Paul to the Gentiles. When the fullness of the Gentiles is come with the rapture of the church, God will turn His attention back to the twelve tribes. They will go through the tribulation and be ushered into His kingdom on earth. James was writing to prepare them for this time which could have been 2,000 years ago, but because of the postponement, James' letter will come back into play after the rapture.

 

[KJV1611]

Paul was writing letters to believers back in his day, yet do you think the Lord can use Paul's letter's for a time after? James was writing with the twelve tribes in mind, yes, but because of the rejection of Jesus Christ as a whole nation, God sent Paul to the Gentiles. When the fullness of the Gentiles is come with the rapture of the church, God will turn His attention back to the twelve tribes. They will go through the tribulation and be ushered into His kingdom on earth. James was writing to prepare them for this time which could have been 2,000 years ago, but because of the postponement, James' letter will come back into play after the rapture.

I believe all letters are for all peoples including the book ofJames. The letter James wrote was to the 12 tribes scattered abroad... the letter applied to them and it applies to us also because there is no difference between us and them, we are all Christians.

There's nothing in James that's anything different than the gospel in Paul's letters, they say the exact same thing... that's why I'm having a hard time understanding why you set the book of James aside for the Jews.

 

[John146]

I believe all letters are for all peoples including the book ofJames. The letter James wrote was to the 12 tribes scattered abroad... the letter applied to them and it applies to us also because there is no difference between us and them, we are all Christians.

There's nothing in James that's anything different than the gospel in Paul's letters, they say the exact same thing... that's why I'm having a hard time understanding why you set the book of James aside for the Jews.

The Bible is written to three types of people: Jew, Gentile, and church of God.

The whole Bible is written for us, but not all of it written to us. Do you obey the word as set forth in all the Bible? What about the word that told Jonah to specifically go to Nineveh and preach against it? Rightly dividing the word of truth is making the right divisions in Scripture to determine who God is speaking and what is His direction for that people.

When reading Scripture, the student must take what is said literally unless the context says not to. When James says the Judge standeth before the door, I take that literally. When James tells his audience that a man is justified by works and not by faith only, I take that literal. Paul says that a man is justified by faith alone and works has nothing to do before or after to justify man before God or man. On the contrary, Paul says a man may have his works burn up at the JSOC, but he himself will be saved...no works worth abiding.

 

[Scriptureplz]

I'm just a regular dispensationalist. You're opinions are well noted, thank you. No part of God's word is for those in the tribulation? What's their direction? Should they keep from taking the mark of the beast?

There's only one way of eternal salvation and that is the shed blood of Jesus Christ. How Christ's blood is applied does differ. Before the cross, one needed to be obedient to God's word, whatever that may consist. After the cross, one needs just to believe on the gospel of the death, burial and resurrection.

Can you explain why the book of James is placed where it is? Mistake? Random placement? Doesn't matter?

Can you explain where the gospel of John is? It was written after James was.

Was it individual obedience as Jews for salvation, or obedience of the nation of Israel for blessings?

 

[John146]

Belief is accepting Jesus, faith is the demonstration of what we believe. "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1). As mentioned, James 2 indicates that true faith is backed by good works. A person can be a believer, but if they claim to believe one thing and do the opposite, you get into that hypocrite arena. Just as a man or woman is faithful to their spouse, its that's same type of faith that keeps us true to Christ.. Belief is action, faith is substance. As Jesus said; "Thy faith hath made thee whole" (Luke 17:19).. jmo

This was posted on another thread. Good thought but misapplied. He's right, faith is demonstrating. In the Church Age, man is justified by the faith of Christ as He demonstrated on the cross by dying for sin once and for all. Man believes on the gospel and is saved. The saved man goes on to live out his faith by serving the Lord. Some go on to great works for the Lord, some sink back into the world or sit idle with no works demonstrating his faith. All are saved equally, but not all receive the same rewards at the JSOC.

 

[Scriptureplz]

I'm just a regular dispensationalist. You're opinions are well noted, thank you. No part of God's word is for those in the tribulation? What's their direction? Should they keep from taking the mark of the beast?

There's only one way of eternal salvation and that is the shed blood of Jesus Christ. How Christ's blood is applied does differ. Before the cross, one needed to be obedient to God's word, whatever that may consist. After the cross, one needs just to believe on the gospel of the death, burial and resurrection.

Can you explain why the book of James is placed where it is? Mistake? Random placement? Doesn't matter?

Being a "regular dispensationalist", you must understand already where the tribulation begins in Revelation, yet the "mark of the beast" is mentioned well after the tribulation has started in Revelation. So it seems the only part of Gods Word that is written to people about the tribulation, are those in the tribulation, which are both Jew and gentile.