JEWS

[thefightinglamb]

As I was running (slowly jogging, lol) just now I remembered how Jesus said "He who denies the Son cannot have the Father either...doesn't it seem he is referring to Jews who refuse to accept him?

And also at the end of John's letter, talking about the anti-christs (those against Christ) and saying some have already come--it seems he is also here referring to the Jews who wouldn't believe in Him...but all either Jew or gentile who believe in Him will be saved...

Is there any other mediater between God and man but the One Jesus Christ? Then by what means can Jews hope to reach the Father if they deny his Son?

Just thoughts, God bless
tony

 

[EconGrad]

The genetic descendants of Moses do not uphold the covenant. They are not included in the new covenant of salvation in Christ.

From my perspective Jews hold no different position religiously than Hindus, Muslims, or any other non-Christian group. Modern Jews are a just an ethnic group and the State of Israel is just a country. Neither plays any role in my beliefs.

 

[thefightinglamb]

lil-Rush,

I was wondering how you interprit John's critique of the Jews...I was just reading Mathew this morning and He says in the ESV:

3 (7-10)

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. And DO NOT presume to say to yourselves, "WE HAVE ABRAHAM AS OUR FATHER," for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. Even now the axe is laid TO THE ROOT of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

I just read this, and it seems that it is referring to the Jews no longer being blessed just from physical descent, as God could raise children for Abraham from rocks (the Rock, Jesus maybe--I do not understand fully how Abraham's children would come from rocks....unless it is by spiritual descent and not physical, right?)

Just wondering your or anyone who thinks the Jews are still blessed based on their bloodlines interprit these verses...

God bless now and always
tony

 

[BIWF]

Actually, the western Europeans are the Israelites out of captivity form the Assyrians and the Jews are just from the tribe of Judah, some of Benjamin, and some Levites. For more info go to www.biwf-usa.com.

 

[Miah45]

This is awesome! Makes a great read! LOL

 

[Baptistrw]

The genetic descendants of Moses do not uphold the covenant. They are not included in the new covenant of salvation in Christ.

From my perspective Jews hold no different position religiously than Hindus, Muslims, or any other non-Christian group. Modern Jews are a just an ethnic group and the State of Israel is just a country. Neither plays any role in my beliefs.

So what about the 70th week in Daniels prophecy and the book of Revelations mentions of Israel? And the fact the Abrahamic covenant has yet to be totally fulfilled?

 

[juspekatzus]

Jews are Gods first fruits of the church, they are the first sheep!

 

[juspekatzus]

Jews are Gods first fruits of the church, they are the first sheep! The bible says we [the gentiles are grafted in] Jesus being the vine and us the branches, again the Jews being first on the vine. The word says the Jews have been made blind to Christ being the Messiah, so we, the Gentiles could be grafted in, therefore bringing the Jews to jealousy. However, God will, and is now opening the Jews spiritual eyes to Jesus being their Messiah. The anti-christ[the first beast in rev.] who now is in power, will soon make a false peace with the world including Israel, which he will break after 3 and a half years. Then when he [is lam] causes them to take the mark 666 [# on the quran] along with everyone else upon the earth. God will open the Jews spiritual eyes to Jesus the Christ being their Messiah.The Jews will then be beheaded for Christ, they will refuse the mark.
The word says to seek the truth and the truth will set us free. I've sought it and found it, in Jesus my Lord

 

[Ancilla]

Having grown up in a traditional Jewish synagogue, I can tell you that if you preached the name of Jesus you would probably be thrown out, possibly even spit on. Rabbis are still very fearful of the idea of Jesus being the Christ. To them it means giving up their traditions and what they have known for their entire lives. They still need the gospel preached to them though. The messianic synagogue is a good medium for them, since they still hold the values and important traditions of Jewish people, but with Yeshua Hamashiach (Jesus the Messiah) at the center of it all. Like all denominations, they don't have perfect theology, but are still accepted, loved, and used by God.

I hope this all helps, ask anything else if you'd like me to clarify =)

Thanks so much for your insight! One thing we learned about Judaism in relgious studies is that they tend to live in concentrated neighbourhoods. Orthodox Jews have to live as close to the synagogue as possible since they can't drive their cars on that Sabbath, because that would involve lighting a fire, if they take a cab they have to prearrange it because they can't do buisness on the sabbath* and if they choose to walk, they can't go very far since they can only take so many steps on the Sabbath. Anyway, where I grew up there were no practicing Jews that I knew of, but here I'm right on the edge of the Jewish district. Furthermore, my boss and lots of my co-workers and clients are Jewish. So for that reason I've been doing a lot of research on Judiaism. I'll be in the Kosher aisle at the grocery store and then the next day at work I'll be like "What does 'Kosher for Passover' mean? I mean other than it can't have baking soda."

Anyway, I got this great book from the library called "Tough Qeustions Jews Ask" by Rabbi Edward Feinstein. He answers the question about what is Christianity. I was very, very surprised to see that his description of Christianity was pretty accurate. On the other hand, they have a lot respect for education,** something I really respect about them, so I guess they'd really want what they wrote to be accurate.

Anyway, he says "The truth is that we never rejected Jesus. We just have different ideas about God and human beings... For Christianity, sin is something we are. For Judaism, sin is something we do. Judaism does not believe in a permanent gap between God and us. We beleive that whenever we choose evil, we can undo the damage. This is the Jewish idea of Teshuva, which means 'turning' or 'changing.' Judaism teaches that we can always transform ourselves and bring ourselves back into harmony with God." [emphasis in the original]

Then later when he answers the question "Can a person be half-Jewish, half-Christian" he says no, because you either believe in Teshuva or you believe in Jesus. He's absolutely right. Teshuva is incompatible with what the New Testament teaches relying on Jesus means.

So basically that means that Messianic Jews reject the doctrine of Teshuva in favour of Yeshua.

*Although this confuses me because my avoids shopping, getting gas, taking cabs, going to the library, going to the movies etc on Sunday because that would involve having someone work for her on the Sabbath, and in the 10 Commandments we're told to not let servants work for us. Exodus 20:10 says "but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates."

**I bet this is why they've won so many Nobel prizes. The guy who studied what makes people sucessful says that somone with a supiror (120) IQ has the same chances of winning a Nobel prize as someone who is off the charts briliant, because it has more to do with work than intellect.

 

[Ancilla]

Pondering over who is a Jew and who is not is beside the point; Romans talks about there being no difference between Jew and Gentile (in fact it says those very words "there is no difference between Jew and Gentile"). By modern standards, a Jew is a decedent of Israel (Jacob). Jesus makes it quite clear when He says "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me". Even Jews need Jesus (Yeshua) to be saved.

Well, you'd think that all Christians would be in agreement with that last point, but I read on Wikipedia that some Christians don't support Jews for Jesus because they believe that Jews can rely on their ancestory or whatever. When I read that I was like "What the heck?????"

You know, at one point I read the Gospels in a very short period of time in order to get a big overview of what they say. One thing that really stuck out to me was how much Jesus implied that if the Jews reject him, then that's the end of the line.

I heard a theologian say that after the Jews crossed the Red Sea they were instructed to shake the dust off their feet, because they didn't want to be carrying any dirt of Eygpt with them into the Promised Land. But this, however, a symbolic gesture of leaving the life they had known in Eygpt. And, apparently there were Isrealites who stayed in Eygpt because they were afraid of change or because they didn't trust God, and let's face it, wandering in the desert was no picnic. Anyway, so shaking the dust off their feet was also a symbolic act to those left behind they were no longer Jews.

So, Jesus said in

Matthew 10:14
If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town.
Mark 6:11
And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave, as a testimony against them."
Luke 9:5
If people do not welcome you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave their town, as a testimony against them."

that if the deciples are reject by their fellow Jews, they should do this symbolic gesture to show that they are no longer Jews.

 

[Ancilla]

the majority of people blood-related to the biblical Jews would be Muslim today, not Jewish. There's some in Afghanistan and many other places. No Jewish person today living in Israel can really claim to be blood-related ancestrally from the original Jews. The Hebrews of the bible had African blood but today Jews are more from eastern origin than african hence their pale sort of skin. Jesus and other Jews of their time were probably darker brown due to the african influence.

Where did you read that? I always thought that if one's last name was Cohen, then they're a direct decendent of Aaron. But maybe I'm confusing that with Kohen.

Anyway, I always thought that Jews are white for the same reason that I'm white. Well, I'm very, very white. That's because all my ancestors lived in the British Isles where the sun doesn't shine and my ancestors evolved to be very fair because it let in more vitamin D which gave them a survival advantage when everyone else was dying. I mean, in the past few years we've learned a lot about the importance of vitamin D in all kinds of areas of health. I was surprised they hadn't looked into that sooner, since as humans migrated north (over a very long period of time) the whiter they got. And we all know that has something to do with survival advantage. I mean, in university I took a course on animals, and when the question is "why does an animal have this behaviour or physcial characteristic?" The answer is always "survival advantage." The same can be said about humans. Have you ever wondered why mothers talk to their babies in a way that emphasizes vowels? It gives the baby a survial advantage.

 

[Ancilla]

As a Jew by blood and upbringing...

The big question I have for you is: do you still celebrate the Passover?? My family celebrates the Seder every year. My dad's friend who was raised Jewish would say the prayers in Hebew and his wife would bring Matzo ball soup (which is sooo yummy!) He'd also bring a kippah for all the men and a silver cup (is that called the Kiddush cup?). My mom would make Haroset (which is awesome!) and we'd have roasted lamb. The Seder also made me love parsley. This year I'm far from my family and I can't find other Christians who celebrate the Seder, so next week I'll do it by myself. I got a Haggadah from the grocery store. I also have matzo, matzo meal for making matzo ball soup. I got some Concord wine (I won't drink full cups though, that would make me drunk, I'll just take a sip for each of the cups.) And parsley, hard boiled eggs and salt water is obviously not hard to come by.

One more question. If they have to drink 4 cups of wine, how do they not get drunk??

I lied, I have two more questions. We'd always celebrate the Seder on the Thursday or Friday (I didn't like celebrating it on Good Friday because I think that day should be kept for remembering the death of Jesus alone. But I never told my parents that). But, my Jewish co-workers say that they have two major meals on consecutive nights. Why is that?

 

[Miah45]

The big question I have for you is: do you still celebrate the Passover?? My family celebrates the Seder every year. My dad's friend who was raised Jewish would say the prayers in Hebew and his wife would bring Matzo ball soup (which is sooo yummy!) He'd also bring a kippah for all the men and a silver cup (is that called the Kiddush cup?). My mom would make Haroset (which is awesome!) and we'd have roasted lamb. The Seder also made me love parsley. This year I'm far from my family and I can't find other Christians who celebrate the Seder, so next week I'll do it by myself. I got a Haggadah from the grocery store. I also have matzo, matzo meal for making matzo ball soup. I got some Concord wine (I won't drink full cups though, that would make me drunk, I'll just take a sip for each of the cups.) And parsley, hard boiled eggs and salt water is obviously not hard to come by.

One more question. If they have to drink 4 cups of wine, how do they not get drunk??

I lied, I have two more questions. We'd always celebrate the Seder on the Thursday or Friday (I didn't like celebrating it on Good Friday because I think that day should be kept for remembering the death of Jesus alone. But I never told my parents that). But, my Jewish co-workers say that they have two major meals on consecutive nights. Why is that?

Traditionally.. Modern Jews are supposed to get on their way on to being drunk (taking Torah a little too literally)
as for the meals... the day after the first night of Passover is technically a Sabbath so it would also be a big meal

 

[Miah45]

Got to love this thread though... some hilarious ideas out there!

 

[Ancilla]

Traditionally.. Modern Jews are supposed to get on their way on to being drunk (taking Torah a little too literally)
as for the meals... the day after the first night of Passover is technically a Sabbath so it would also be a big meal

Hmm.. but my Haggaadah says "If the frist Seder falls on a Saturday night..." Does that mean there's two? Is it always held adjacent to the Sabbath? And if it does fall on a Saturday night, how do they do all that preperation for the Seder. It's a lot of work. They can't wait until sundown to do all that work, can they?

That brings me to another question. How do Orthodox Jews eat on Saturdays? Doesn't preparing food require some work? At the Kosher grocery store they have lots disposable cups and plates and table clothes. I mean, obviously you can buy those things at any grocery store, but I haven't seen a grocery store of that size dedicate so much space to disposable stuff. It makes me wonder if they use a lot of that kind of stuff in order to avoid working on the Sabbath.

They also this toothbrush there that's just for the Sabbath where they can put this special gel on it prior the the Sabbath so they don't have to (I'm not making this up) squeeze toothpaste on the Sabbath. And it says on the back that they couldn't decide if it was lawful to rinse the toothbrush when used for the last time on the Sabbath because that could be considered preparing for a weekday and so they recommend that the users consult their rabbis.

On of my Jewish co-workers said that Orthodox Jews have to pre tear their toilet paper before the Sabbath. Which brings me to the question: how can they relax if they're worried about breaking all those rules?????

 

[Miah45]

Hmm.. but my Haggaadah says "If the frist Seder falls on a Saturday night..." Does that mean there's two? Is it always held adjacent to the Sabbath? And if it does fall on a Saturday night, how do they do all that preperation for the Seder. It's a lot of work. They can't wait until sundown to do all that work, can they?

That brings me to another question. How do Orthodox Jews eat on Saturdays? Doesn't preparing food require some work? At the Kosher grocery store they have lots disposable cups and plates and table clothes. I mean, obviously you can buy those things at any grocery store, but I haven't seen a grocery store of that size dedicate so much space to disposable stuff. It makes me wonder if they use a lot of that kind of stuff in order to avoid working on the Sabbath.

They also this toothbrush there that's just for the Sabbath where they can put this special gel on it prior the the Sabbath so they don't have to (I'm not making this up) squeeze toothpaste on the Sabbath. And it says on the back that they couldn't decide if it was lawful to rinse the toothbrush when used for the last time on the Sabbath because that could be considered preparing for a weekday and so they recommend that the users consult their rabbis.

On of my Jewish co-workers said that Orthodox Jews have to pre tear their toilet paper before the Sabbath. Which brings me to the question: how can they relax if they're worried about breaking all those rules?????

Yeah very occasionally Passover falls on Shabbat (Sabbath). The search for Chametz etc and prep is bumped forward to Thursday when this happens, if you're interested you can visit the Orthodox Union's website for kosher laws regarding Passover.

With regard to my Orthodox brothers.. Their heart's desire IS to please God, but you're looking at Rabbinical Judaism not biblical Judaism, and a kind of Judaism that has had to address the loss of the Temple etc.. Whilst the idea of creating fences around the Mosaic Law was a pure motivation to avoid breaking the commandments, over the years these fences became as important in keeping as the Mosaic Law. Jesus refers to this in Matthew 23.

Anyway most Orthodox Jews run electricity on timers and food is kept in slow cookers, and when you get all the laws down after doing it week after week , most really do relax.

 

[thefightinglamb]

So as I said before on this thread sometimes I go to a messeinic service on friday nights at a church I have been going to...it is a totally different church or synogogue or congregation than the normal church, though they do intermix quite a bit...

Anyway, some of the Christians from the church introduced me to the idea of "becoming Jewish" because Jesus was jewish...basically, they go through some ritual where they are not only Christians but also Jews!!!

Sounds pretty strange to me...but anyway, they are starting to stress in that church reading the old testament in Hebrew, and they STILL believe all of the old testament laws minus sacrifices are still in affect, and they are also working to restore jews to Israel...Anyway, they as I said before refuse to be called Christians but think they are frinds of Christians...

It is all baffling to me.

God's peace
tony

 

[Ancilla]

Thanks for answering my question!

Yeah very occasionally Passover falls on Shabbat (Sabbath). The search for Chametz etc

Is that where they look for the 10 pieces of bread and any other leavening that might still be in the house?

if you're interested you can visit the Orthodox Union's website for kosher laws regarding Passover.

I totally should. Thanks for pointing me in that direction.

With regard to my Orthodox brothers.. Their heart's desire IS to please God, but you're looking at Rabbinical Judaism not biblical Judaism, and a kind of Judaism that has had to address the loss of the Temple etc.. Whilst the idea of creating fences around the Mosaic Law was a pure motivation to avoid breaking the commandments, over the years these fences became as important in keeping as the Mosaic Law. Jesus refers to this in Matthew 23.

Yeah, at the grocery store they have oven mitts and pot holder that say "dairy" and "meat" and I heard this is because in Exodus 23:19 (and later) it says "Do not cook a young goat in its mother's milk." and that this is why they go to such great lengths to seperate meat and dairy. My co-worker went to a Jewish school and she got in big trouble for having meat in her lunch, because the lunches at school were meant to only include dairy.

I keep coming back to Colossians 2:20-23:

"Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence."

See, I think it's human nature to follow rules that have nothing to do with restraining the seven deadly sins. I know the seven deadlies aren't presented together in the Bible but I think their such important concepts because they are things that exist in our heart rather than actions. If we do a "good deed" with a prideful motive that is like filthy rags to God. I have a friend who won't eat meat on Fridays, but is ok with getting drunk and sleeping around. But when we have these religious actions and rules they can make us feel righteous without having to look at our hearts. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.

However, that being said, I do have a lot or respect for Orthodox Jews who take their religion so serioiusly and incorporate it into every area of their life. I also admire their courage in being so visible about their faith, despite their history of persecution.

One time in the grocery store I heard a mom tell her kid that they couldn't have something because it wasn't Kosher. When the kid complain I wanted to turned to her and say "Hey, you ancestors made a lot of scarfices to maintain your way of life, now be thankful!" I've actually heard they hear that a lot in Hebrew school.

I read that some Jews think that the Messiah won't come until all Jews keep the Sabbath for two consecutive weeks. While it's hard for me to see God as being that picky, I guess it makes sense to them.

But yeah, I really can't fault them for following the laws God gave them... even though they've expanded on those laws to include those "fenses" you speak of. I can only respect them doing what they think God wants them to do.

Anyway most Orthodox Jews run electricity on timers and food is kept in slow cookers, and when you get all the laws down after doing it week after week , most really do relax.

That makes sense. In fact, I wish Christians would be more deligent about keeping the Sabbath. But truth of the matter is, when I was in university I was pretty bad at putting off my studying so I'd have no choice but to study on Sundays.

 

[Miah45]

Anyway, some of the Christians from the church introduced me to the idea of "becoming Jewish" because Jesus was jewish...basically, they go through some ritual where they are not only Christians but also Jews!!!

Tony... I understand the importance of Aliyah (jews returning to Israel) and becoming a friend to Israel BUT..

This however is where the congregation is sounding 'off'... Being born a GENTILE IS NOT A MISTAKE. One is not more important to God than the other. Whilst the Jewish people have a very distinct and specific calling that is very important in seeing God's heart and plans on the earth fulfilled.. being Gentile is also very important. You cannot fulfill your destiny if you needed be to something else when you were born. Never lose sight of that.
Whilst I'm sure there may be good intentions at the messianic synagogue. This sounds remarkably close to Judaizing. You're not being judaized if you're being encouraged to connect to the Lord through the feasts or shabbat, remember the feasts were time set apart by the Lord not Moses for all to find him in...but to be encouraged to be something other than God made you sounds pretty close to being judaized.

 

[Ancilla]

If so how can we know for sure that if we support Israel (the country) we are supporitng true blood-related Israelites without DNA testing them or something like that?

I heard that there are a lot of Jews who can trace back their geneology to that which is in the Bible. So they can actually trace their ancestors all the way back to Adam, because if it's traceable back to the Bible than the geneology back to Adam is in the Bible. So there are Jews that if you were to ask them how they can prove they're a decendent of the Isrealites described in Exodus (or a direct decendent of Aaron, if they're a Kohen) they could take out their family history and show it to you. But, that's just something that I heard. Not to be confused with something I've read in something reliable. I need to make that distinction because I don't ever ask someone to believe me unless I can prove I've read it in a reliable source.

You know, I wish my family had been as good about keeping up records. My dad has managed to trace all our ancestors back to England and Scotland, but not far beyond that things begin to get difficult.