JEWS

[Ancilla]

And I'm still convinced that if you live in Europe for sevral dozen generations, (especially during tough times) your physical characteristics will adjust acordingly. Am I the only one here who's studied Darwin?

 

[Miah45]

I was reading this website:

http://www.angelfire.com/ill/hebrewisrael/printpages/phys.html


Weren't the Hebrews a black-skinned people, at least that's what the bible seems to say. Even if they weren't originally, living in Egypt and intermixing with the Egyptians certainly would have introduced blackness.

It seems that the true Jews (by blood descent) were black caucasoids of northern Ethiopia , not Ashehekanzaic Jews who are converts from the Turko-Russian region.

Here is a portrayal of Jesus constructed by scientists based on best available evidence of what people looked like in Palestine in the period.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcfa.htm


Dark olive skin, curly hair, prominent roundish nose and rounded facial features , are more African type features. Although they weren't negros I think the original Jews were black and there seems to be strong biblical and historical evidence for this.

Oi Vey!

I think we're getting into semantics here.. interchanging dark olive and black..

Yes we were way darker than we are today but we're still pretty dark now! Is it me or is all this built on the presumption that we also think Ashkenazi Jews were direct descendants?

"Since the biblical Egyptians were a black-skinned people, Joseph had to be black-skinned also. If he were white skinned, his brothers would have recognized him easily among the "black" Egyptians. His brothers thought Joseph was another Egyptian."

who said we were white skinned?? 'Scholars' Hmm..

Call me picky but..you're 'African features' don't describe the Falasha to me as much as they describe both Sephardi and Mitzrakhi Jews more.

Did you know this kind of stuff is taught by some African Muslims who believe Abraham was black not Iraqi olive skin?

Anyway I can't believe I'm talking about this stuff LOL!

 

[tonga]

Anyway, some of the Christians from the church introduced me to the idea of "becoming Jewish" because Jesus was jewish...basically, they go through some ritual where they are not only Christians but also Jews!!!

Just to clarify, these people may go through some type of "conversion" but they are not considered
to be Jews by the Jewish community. They remain gentile and Christian.
If they present themselves as being Jews, they are being deceptive or have been mislead.

 

[tonga]

Hmm.. but my Haggaadah says "If the frist Seder falls on a Saturday night..." Does that mean there's two?

Yes, outside of Israel there are two seders held, the first and second nights.

. How do Orthodox Jews eat on Saturdays? Doesn't preparing food require some work?

There are many issues involving food preparation on shabbas, too complex to go into here, but
one of the main problems is cooking. Food is cooked before shabbas and kept warm on a
"covered fire" (usually a stove top is left on and covered with a piece of sheet metal) called
a blech.

. It makes me wonder if they use a lot of that kind of stuff in order to avoid working on the Sabbath.

One may not wash dishes on shabbas unless the dishes are needed for shabbas. Paper plates
are popular because it eliminates the washing need, plus people very frequently have large
groups of people over for shabbas meals (there are three) and it makes it much simpler to use
disposable items.

On of my Jewish co-workers said that Orthodox Jews have to pre tear their toilet paper before the Sabbath. Which brings me to the question: how can they relax if they're worried about breaking all those rules?????

Brushing teeth and tearing is an issue on shabbas. "Work" is considered to be creative work that
was used during the building of the mishkan. These activities fall into that category.

Shabbas preparation is mostly finished by shabbas, so there is time to rest and relax of course!

 

[miktre]

Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Rev3:8,9 8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

I often wondered what the Lord is trying to tell us here. Who calls themselves jews and are not, but lie? Why would God repeat this so close together? Its a very interesting statement "synagogue of satan". I believe the Word is telling to look out for this synagogue, they shall be setting up this false throne in the Lords favorite earthly place, for satan longs to sit in that seat.

 

[Ancilla]

Yes, outside of Israel there are two seders held, the first and second nights.

So I guess many of my Orthodox neighbours have just finished celebrating the Seder again as I write this. If I was there I would have asked "Why is this night different from last night?"

What do you mean "Outside of Israel"? Why would it be any different? And speaking of which, my Haggadah it says that you end the Seder by saying "Next year in Jerusalem." What do they say in Jerusalem? One Seder my mom absent mindedly suggest we instead say, "Next year in New Jerusalem." Well that was a bad idea because my dad's friend who was present was very sick with kidney disease and other complications from type 1 diabetes, and there was no gaurentee he's survive the year even though he did live a few more years.

You were right about the Sabbath candles. At the grocery store they're clearly labled that they burn for 3 hours. And I get what you're saying about how putting out those candles would be a symbolically bad idea. You know, while I think that their Sabbath laws take leagalism to the extreme, especially the Eruv, but I kind of envy them for making it so special every week. I wish Christians were better at observing the Sabbath.

And as for their rules, even though they look ridiculously legalistic to us. I like how the Orthodox Jews trust in those rules and lead not on their own understanding as they see their more progressive counterparts. There's really something to respect there.

I also like how I've found out that some of my Jewish co-workers (it seems like about a third of my co-workers are Jewish, but I haven't actually counted) that I didn't think were so observant have told me they're abstaining from yeast and baking soda during Passover. Good for them!

I can't remember if I already asked you, but does Passover always start on a full moon? Purim also was on a full moon. Again, no coincidence? I heard that the Jewish calander is all about the moon and not the sun, does that mean that every day of the month always fall on the same moon phase?

 

[Ancilla]

On last thing, there's this one kid I work with, as soon as I saw his name I knew he was Jewish. It's one of those names! He was complaining on Wednesday that he had those "soup nuts" for his snack. He was asking me why he couldn't have gingerbread cookies. When I told him they weren't Kosher for Passover, he didn't seem to care. I should have told him that once he has his Bar Mitzvah, then he can make his own choices about eating baking soda during Passover. I was at the Kosher grocery store the night before and there were lots of Kosher for Passover treats. I should have picked one up for him!

Cool story: Sunday I had a very scary, very near miss on the highway. It was one of those situations where you hit a bottleneck and everyone has to slam on their breaks. I could almost feel a car accident in my upcoming week so I went up after the service for prayer for saftey on the road. Well, on Wednesday the mother of the kid I just mentioned said that the day before he was in a rollover accident on the highway. He has a staple in his head but he could have easily been killed and the driver is ok too. It later occured to me that God was actually prompting me to pray for him. God is good!!

 

[Miah45]

What do you mean "Outside of Israel"? Why would it be any different?

This goes back to when the Sanhedrin had difficulty in establishing when the new moon for each month occurred (The Jewish Calendar is Lunar). Originally a series of bonfires were lit all the way to Babylon (much like the scene from Lord of the Rings) until the Sad-u-see group started contesting the calendar and lighting fires according to their opinion. So instead of fires, messengers were dispatched informing when the lunar month began... therefore all could work out when the holidays and feasts began. However because it took the messengers some time to reach those in Babylon etc.. feasts except Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashanah were celebrated for two days outside Israel. (Yom Kippur was deemed too long to fast for 2 days and Rosh Hashanah was also uncertain to predict for a while in Israel also). Even though we can now predict when the new moons will be, the tradition continues till today.

And speaking of which, my Haggadah it says that you end the Seder by saying "Next year in Jerusalem." What do they say in Jerusalem?"

Why? Because to live outside of Israel is an unnatural state of being for the Jew.. much like the hope of Heaven of a christian.

 

[Ancilla]

This goes back to when the Sanhedrin had difficulty in establishing when the new moon for each month occurred (The Jewish Calendar is Lunar). Originally a series of bonfires were lit all the way to Babylon (much like the scene from Lord of the Rings) until the Sad-u-see group started contesting the calendar and lighting fires according to their opinion. So instead of fires, messengers were dispatched informing when the lunar month began... therefore all could work out when the holidays and feasts began. However because it took the messengers some time to reach those in Babylon etc.. feasts except Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashanah were celebrated for two days outside Israel. (Yom Kippur was deemed too long to fast for 2 days and Rosh Hashanah was also uncertain to predict for a while in Israel also). Even though we can now predict when the new moons will be, the tradition continues till today.

Ok, that does answer my question. Yes, I was told that the Jewish calendar was based on the moon, whereas ours was based on the sun, which is why seasosns start on the same day (give or take) every year. When I think about how Passover and other Jewish holidays don't always come at the exact same time every year, that was me assuming that the Georgian calander is the "right" one, just because it follows the sun instead of the moon. I was asking all my Jewish co-workers about the calander. According to my calander, both Purim and Passover fell on the full moon this year. Does always happen? And my big question was this: do the phases of the moon fall on the same dates every month? Like is the new moon always on the 1st and the full moon always on the 15th or whatever of the month? None of my co-workers could answer my question, just like they couldn't answer why there was a potato on the Seder plate. But, what surprises me about what you wrote is that there was a time when they couldn't predict the phases of the moon and the Sanhedrin had to tell them. You think it would be as obvious as looking at the night sky, but I guess it wasn't that simple.

 

[Ancilla]

But anyway, tomorrow night I will celebrate the Seder. I wish I could have done it on Wednesday but I had to work until late. I have the Haggadah and five Kosher for Passover ingredients. I have the Manischewitz Concord wine (which is so good), the matzos, the horseradish, and seltzer to make matzos ball soup, and for dessert I'll be having Kosher for Passover marshmellows!! Marshmellows isn't much of a dessert ususally, but these are different. They're rolled in toasted coconut!! The matzos meal I have on hand to make the soup is not for Passover but I'm too cheap to buy more.

My Jewish co-workers and clients have been impressed with my knowledge of the 4 questions and finding the Afikoman and whatnot. I haven't told them that my family has celebrated the Seder for years because I wasn't sure if they'd take offense to that. Do you think they would?

 

[Miah45]

According to my calander, both Purim and Passover fell on the full moon this year. Does always happen?

No.

And my big question was this: do the phases of the moon fall on the same dates every month? Like is the new moon always on the 1st and the full moon always on the 15th or whatever of the month?

A new moon takes 29.5 days to cycle through. As a month has to be made up of equal days, the Sanhedrin would determine how long a month would be (either 29 or 30 days) depending on when the month's new moon was first sighted.

But, what surprises me about what you wrote is that there was a time when they couldn't predict the phases of the moon and the Sanhedrin had to tell them. You think it would be as obvious as looking at the night sky, but I guess it wasn't that simple.

I forget why exactly, but I know it's something to do with the need for eye-witness confirmation (despite the Sanhedrin being expert astronomers) Hillel II saw the end of the sanhedrin system and it's calendar and established a perpetual calendar still used today. (the calendar works on 3 variables of two months that can be either 29 or 30 days...

None of my co-workers could answer my question, just like they couldn't answer why there was a potato on the Seder plate.

Do you mean the Karpas?

 

[Ancilla]

A new moon takes 29.5 days to cycle through. As a month has to be made up of equal days, the Sanhedrin would determine how long a month would be (either 29 or 30 days) depending on when the month's new moon was first sighted.

Ahh... now that answers a few of my questions. It's kind of like why we have a February 29 every four years. It's too bad they got rid of their fires to Babylon, that's such a cool idea. I still have trouble visualizing them doing the exact same dinner two nights in a row, though. But, someone at work said it is handy for going to different sides of the family for the different nights.

Do you mean the Karpas?

Yes, but I read on-line that's because the Jews in Europe didn't always have acess to fresh greens that time of year so they'd use potatoes instead.

 

[Ancilla]

Just to clarify, these people may go through some type of "conversion" but they are not considered
to be Jews by the Jewish community. They remain gentile and Christian.
If they present themselves as being Jews, they are being deceptive or have been mislead.

Where did you read that? Rabbi Edward Feinstein says this: "Since the time of Abraham and Sarah, the Jewish people have welcomed outsiders who wish to join us." Then he talks about the very long process of conversion including all the teaching, participation, presenting them to the Beit Din for approval, then the circumcision and mikva, then they get a Hebrew name and "designation ben or bat-Avraham v'Sarah... These people are never called 'converts.' They are fully and completely Jewish and welcomed warmly into the Jewish community." Now, that last line I've heard disputed, but that's what he said.

 

[Ell-]

Peace be upon you.
The Jews are still Gods people. When Gods Bride/Church leaves the earth, then Jesus Christ will return to the Jews after he send them Elijah and Moses. We can not add or remove to the Bible, but we must follow it as it is written. We can not bend the Words of God to make it fit our private lives or our religion, we must follow the Word of God just as it is said and written.

Jesus Christ will return to the Jews when the Bride is gone from earth. When Jesus Christ returns to the Jews, Zechariah 13:6 will take place.
The Jews are still Gods people and remains the only correct religion. Those who believes in Christ but are not Jews, will not belong to any religion but rather free. Those are called the Sons and Daughters of God. Also read Romans 11:25

Romans 11:25;
''For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.''

Gentiles are we who believe in Christ but are not Jews.

 

[Ancilla]

My Jewish co-workers are now so impressed with all my knowledge of their religion! I was working with a Jewish kid today and he was singing a song called "who knows one?" which talks about how numbers one to 13 are significant to the Jewish people. He says "Eight are the days until snip snip." You know, one day I'll ask one of my Jewish co-workers who's a mom of a baby boy what it's like to watch your baby be circumsized. Like, I get it's a very special thing for them, but doesn't that really hurt the baby?

 

[Ancilla]

One more thing, I'm no expert but I think that to imply that modern Jews regardless of their skin colour don't have any ancestors who were part of the Exodus is probably one of the most offensive things you can say to them, just to let you know.

 

[tonga]

Ok here's a question: If they (Orthodox Jews) are not allowed to extinguish a flame on the Sabbath. How do they put the Sabbath candles out??? Do they just leave them burning all night? Isn't that dangerous??? The Wal-Mart near my house has Sabbath candles, on display at the end of an aisle. Isn't that funny? They're totally catering to the market.

That is correct, the shabbas candles are allowed to burn themselves out.
It's not dangerous as long as they are placed in a safe area, out of
the way of pets and kids.

Wal-Mart with shabbas candles? That is funny!

 

[tonga]

Where did you read that? Rabbi Edward Feinstein says this: "Since the time of Abraham and Sarah, the Jewish people have welcomed outsiders who wish to join us." Then he talks about the very long process of conversion including all the teaching, participation, presenting them to the Beit Din for approval, then the circumcision and mikva, then they get a Hebrew name and "designation ben or bat-Avraham v'Sarah... These people are never called 'converts.' They are fully and completely Jewish and welcomed warmly into the Jewish community." Now, that last line I've heard disputed, but that's what he said.

That is correct if someone is converting to Judaism.
However, the post I was responded to stated:

Originally Posted by thefightinglamb

Anyway, some of the Christians from the church introduced me to the idea of "becoming Jewish" because Jesus was jewish...basically, they go through some ritual where they are not only Christians but also Jews!!!

Which indicates the person is probably "converting" to "Messianic" Judaism, or some other form
non-halachic conversion. These people are not accepted by the Jewish community, while
those who have a legitimate conversion are, as you stated.

You can't convert to Judaism while maintaining Christian beliefs: there is no being a "Christian but also a Jew" as regards to conversion.

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Piano_hero]

Jews are forever God's people . Have you not read the Bible ? You wouldnt be saved if it wasnt for the Jews . Salvation is a project made for the Jews and gentiles were allowed in as a side project to provoke the Jews to jealousy . Jesus was a jew . Salvation if for the Jews firstly . alll of israel shall be saved (keep in mind that everythign im saying is from the Bible, most of it form teh NT in fact) . Jesus only came for the Jews , in fact he forbade his desciples from entering gentile cities . Jesus called gentiles dogs and said that if your brohter sins and doesnt repent even after you rebuke him with witnesses adn in front of the whole congregation , to consider him a gentile . Gentiles are held to lower standards of holiness than jews . Jews were given 600+ laws that they STILL must keep to be saved , while gentiles are only required to keep 14 becuase they are only gentiles . the whole point of this whole thing is the ultimate restoration of Israel adn at teh end every nation shall serve the God of Israel and the gentiles shall grab onto the Jews cloaks . Jesus said that real israelites obeyed God , wchich is true, thats not to say that a jew that doesnt , ISNT a jew its just hes not living teh way he really should . Saul was and still is a jew . Also Jesus himself said he came to the "lost" Isralites , whcih would be an oxymoron if only peopel that obeyed God were Isralites .

"You don't know what you're worshiping. We Jews know what we're worshiping, because salvation comes from the Jews." jhon 4:22

"And so I ask, "They have not stumbled so as to fall, have they?" Of course not! On the contrary, because of their stumbling, salvation has come to the gentiles to make the Jews jealous."- rom 11:11

"There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."- Rom 2:10

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is God's power for the salvation of everyone who believes, of the Jew first and of the Greek as well." rom 1:16

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:"- Rom 11:26

"But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."" mat 15:24

"These were the twelve disciples whom Jesus sent out after he had given them these instructions: "Don't turn on to the road that leads to the gentiles, and don't enter Samaritan towns. but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." mat 10:5

""If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector." Mat 18:17

""I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you." gen 17:7

"'So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.'" ex 31:16

"Ye shall not make yourselves abominable with any creeping thing that creepeth, neither shall ye make yourselves unclean with them, that ye should be defiled thereby."Here is the reason: I am the LORD your God. You must live holy lives. Be holy because I am holy. Never become unclean by touching anything that swarms or crawls on the ground." - Lev 11:43

"be careful to obey all the laws and rules I'm giving you today."These are the statutes and the judgments which you shall carefully observe in the land which the LORD, the God of your fathers, has given you to possess as long as you live on the earth." Deu 11:32

"And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law;"- Acts 21:20

"(about paul) take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law."But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication." acts 21:24-25

 

[thefightinglamb]

The Bible several times says that only a remnant of the Jews will be saved...then you can quote that one verse of Paul that states that "have no doubt that all jews will be saved for the promise is not revoked"...but still this seems to be speaking of those of the Jews that are spiritually Jews and not just physical descent/or even those who become Jews by conversion...

Galatians 3: 7-14
Know then that it is those of faith who are sons of Abraham. And the scripture foreseeing that God would justify the gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham saying, "In you shall all the nations be blessed." So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
For ALL who rely on the works of the law are under a curse; for it is written "Cursed be anyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them." NOw it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for "The righteous shall live by faith." But the law is not of faith, rather "The one who does them shall live by them." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us--for it is written, "Cursed is everyone hanged on a tree"--so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

This scripture fairly blatantly states that Christians are both Jew and Gentiles and that are of the faith. And either Jews or Gentiles that are not of the faith are NOT children of Abraham.

The question you have to ask as I have written in this thread before is, if the Jews (who reject Christ and also are not Spiritually Jews on the inside)are still God's chosen people, then is it possible to know God without knowing his Son? See, it is only through Jesus Christ that anyone has fellowship with God...so if the Jews know God apart from the Lord Jesus, who is their intercessor? Or more poignantly, Jesus states that any who deny him deny the one who sent him, and states everywhere that Jesus is the only way...so the Jews cannot have another way...

God bless as I still am puzzled about this
May the Lord reveal himself to the Jews in Jesus Christ
tony