Joyce Meyer: Do you like or dislike her? Explain!

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Lauren

Guest
Ahhh you know what, I give up. If she leads people to Christ, even if she herself is teaching (which is wrong itself) things that are not biblical, then whatever, so be it. They'll be ignorant to the truth, but I suppose they'll still be saved.
I begrudgingly withdraw my argument; I still don't think she should be a pastor or be teaching a church, and I still think she's teaching things that are not in (or even contradictory to) the Bible. I also think she is turning away potential believers with her lavish lifestyle (what kind of example is she setting!?), but if the end result is more people saved, I'll drop it.
I know nothing about Joyce Meyer myself, never even heard of her until I saw her name mentioned on this site. I wasn't condoning a false teaching and I wasn't setting up an argument to defend her - I don't even know her.

Ehh, I give up too. I was simply asking someone to elaborate so I could understand better.
 
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She does write some good stuff and leaves you feeling encouraged, it is all from the Word. Although admittedly her theology is a bit short in some areas. But paraphrasing and using loose interpretations of scripture is perfectly acceptable to convey a spiritual truth.
 
C

CarrierOfChrist

Guest
She does write some good stuff and leaves you feeling encouraged, it is all from the Word. Although admittedly her theology is a bit short in some areas. But paraphrasing and using loose interpretations of scripture is perfectly acceptable to convey a spiritual truth.
So it's cool to interpret things wrong (loose interpretations?) about the Bible if it's used to tell a truth?
 
Jan 8, 2009
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Loose meaning out of context, not necessarily wrong. The authors of the new testament did similar in how they quoted the old testament to prove a point or spiritual truth which they knew from experience to be true.
 
M

Musicfan4ever

Guest
Joyce Meyer is one of my favorite ministers to listen to. She's annointed by God! She tells it like it is & she's not afraid to either. She's not cenceited either!
 
C

CarrierOfChrist

Guest
Loose meaning out of context, not necessarily wrong. The authors of the new testament did similar in how they quoted the old testament to prove a point or spiritual truth which they knew from experience to be true.
May I have an example of where the authors of the NT used the OT out of context?
 
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The New Testament writers, even Jesus Himself, often loosely quoted Old Testament scripture to establish a point. So I don't see a problem with inspired preachers today doing the same thing. The easiest examples are in Paul's writings where he takes passages of old testament scripture referring to God and Israel and applies it to Christ and the church. Now experts at the time in old testament scripture would have said "you can't do that Paul, that's taken out of context!", much like we do today for preachers who use the same inspired methods of using scripture, such as Joyce Meyer.


But the Old Testament passages are often taken out of their literal and contextual meaning as they were written at the time, and re-applied in the New Testament to spiritual principles or truths which the New Testament writers know from experience or divine revelation and interaction with the Son of God and the Holy Spirit.


One example is :

Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
where Paul uses it to establish a spiritual truth to instruct members in the church how they should live.


But if we turn to the context in which it was originally written:
Isa 60:1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee.

And there are better examples I am sure.


If you've never considered this issue before or perhaps unaware of it, an interesting read is the following link:

http://www.davidniblack.com/articles/New%20Testament%20use%20of%20the%20Old%20Testament.htm



 
C

CarrierOfChrist

Guest
The New Testament writers, even Jesus Himself, often loosely quoted Old Testament scripture to establish a point. So I don't see a problem with inspired preachers today doing the same thing. The easiest examples are in Paul's writings where he takes passages of old testament scripture referring to God and Israel and applies it to Christ and the church. Now experts at the time in old testament scripture would have said "you can't do that Paul, that's taken out of context!", much like we do today for preachers who use the same inspired methods of using scripture, such as Joyce Meyer.


But the Old Testament passages are often taken out of their literal and contextual meaning as they were written at the time, and re-applied in the New Testament to spiritual principles or truths which the New Testament writers know from experience or divine revelation and interaction with the Son of God and the Holy Spirit.


One example is :

Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
where Paul uses it to establish a spiritual truth to instruct members in the church how they should live.


But if we turn to the context in which it was originally written:
Isa 60:1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee.

And there are better examples I am sure.


If you've never considered this issue before or perhaps unaware of it, an interesting read is the following link:

http://www.davidniblack.com/articles/New Testament use of the Old Testament.htm



So there's no way Paul could've been referencing...

Isaiah 26:19 - But those who die in the Lord will live; their bodies will rise again! Those who sleep in the earth will rise up and sing for joy! For your life-giving light will fall like dew on your people in the place of the dead!

... instead? Wouldn't that be a more literal reference than the verse from Isaiah you referenced?
 
Jan 8, 2009
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What version is that Carrier ? the KJV renders it as:

Isa 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, togetherwith my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew isas the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

Which is a less obvious connection to what Paul said.

Further, the presybyterian theologian Barnes says:

But the objections to this are obvious and conclusive.
(1) this is not a quotation of that place, nor has it a "resemblance" to it, except in the word "awake."
(2) the passage in Isaiah refers to a different matter, and has a different sense altogether; see the notes on the passage.
To make it refer to those to whom the gospel comes, is most forced and unnatural.


I used Isaiah 60:1 as that is the old testament reference given with the far majority of new testament commentary I have read on that verse of Paul's. Isaiah 9:2 is another one.

Barnes himself has objections to Isaiah 60:1. I've highlighed in bold the parts where it is admitted the discrepency between the old testament quotation and new testament useage:

(1) it is "not" a quotation of that passage, and the resemblance is very remote, if it can be seen at all.
(2) "that" is addressed to the church, calling on her to let her light shine; "this," to awake and arise from the dead, with the assurance that Christ would give them light. The exhortation here is to Christians, to "avoid the vices of the pagan around them;" the exhortation in Isaiah is to the church, to "rejoice and exult" in view of the fact that the day of triumph had come, and that the pagan were to be converted, and to come in multitudes and devote themselves to God. In the "design" of the two passages there is no resemblance. Some have supposed that the words are taken from some book among the Hebrews which is now lost. Epiphanius supposed that it was a quotation from a prophecy of Elijah; Syncellus and Euthalius, from some writing of Jeremiah; Hippolytus, from the writing of some now unknown prophet. Jerome supposed it was taken from some apocryphal writings. Grotius supposes that it refers to the word "light" in Eph_5:13, and that the sense is," That light says; that is, that a man who is pervaded by that light, let him so say to another." Heumann, and after him Storr, Michaelis, and Jennings (Jewish Ant. 2:252), suppose that the reference is to a song or hymn that was sung by the early Christians, beginning in this manner, arid that the meaning is, "Wherefore, as it is said in the hymns which we sing,
‘Awake, thou that sleepest;
Arise from the dead;
Christ shall give thee light.’
Others have supposed that there is an allusion to a sentiment which prevailed among the Jews, respecting the significancy of blowing the trumpet on the first day of the month, or the feast of the new moon. Maimonides conjectures that that call of the trumpet, especially in the month Tisri, in which the great day of atonement occurred, was designed to signify a special call to repentance; meaning, "You who sleep, arouse from your slumbers; search and try yourselves; think on your Creator, repent, and attend to the salvation of the soul." "Burder," in Ros. Alt. u. neu. Morgenland, in loc. But all this is evidently conjecture. I see no evidence that Paul meant to make a quotation at all. Why may we not suppose that he speaks as an inspired man, and that he means to say, simply, that God now gives this command, or that God now speaks in this way? The sense then would be, "Be separate from sinners. Come out from among the pagan. Do not mingle with their abominations; do not name them. You are the children of light; and God says to you, awake from false security, rouse from the death of sin, and Christ shall enlighten you." Whatever be the origin of the sentiment in this verse, it is worthy of inspiration, and accords with all that is elsewhere said in the Scriptures.
(The grand objection to this view of our author is, that the apostle evidently introduces a citation. In the writings of Paul, the form διὸ λέγειdio legei is never used in any other sense. Whence then is the quotation taken? There is nothing absurd in supposing, with Scott and Guyse, that the apostle gives the general sense of the Old Testament prophecies con cerning the calling of the Gentiles. But Isa_60:1-3, bears a sufficiently close resemblance to the passage in Ephesians, to vindicate the very commonly received opinion, that the apostle quotes that prophecy, in which the subject is the increase of the Church by the accession of the pagan nations. The church is called to arise and shine, and the apostle reminds the converted Ephesians of their lofty vocation. It forms no very serious objection, that between the place in Isaiah and that in Ephesians, there are certain verbal discrepancies. No one will make much of this, who remembers, nat in a multitude of cases similar variations occur, the apostles contenting themselves with giving the sense of the places to which they refer. "Accordingly," says Dr. Dodridge, "the sense of tire passage before us is so fairly deducible from the words of Isaiah, that I do not see any necessity of having recourse to this supposition," namely, that the quotation was from an apocryphal book ascribed to Jeremiah.)

So Barnes is basically saying, "why can't Paul say what he likes, he's an inspired man!!", although Isaiah 60:1 is the closest old testament scripture we can get.

I personally believe it is inspired by the old testament scripture. If so, then this is a good example of Paul loosely quoting from old testament scripture - or perhaps not using scripture at all! Whether from old testament scripture or personal revelation as given by the Holy Spirit or otherwise, Paul declares it to be from God as he says "Wherefore he saith".


What it shows is divinely inspired men under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit (or otherwise) are not bound to comply with the usual contextual readings of the old testament scripture.

So , I see nothing wrong with the same being done as Joyce Meyer or other inspired people may do. Often a passage is taken out of context to prove a point, eg how to be happier, or how to have more peace etc. Sunday church pastors do it all the time as well, but I don't see anything explicitly wrong with it. I'd feel like a bit of a hypocrite if I pointed out the "out of context" flaws of inspired preachers (provided it is not clearly erroneous), while also believing the new testament to be true - which was written mostly under divine inspiration from God rather than from proper and rigid contextual interpretation of the old testament.


 
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By the way, I think the major disagreements between Judaism and Christianity is due to this "new versus old testament" issue. Jews may find it hard to accept the new testament useage of old testaement - (which they see as being taken out of context especially if they deny Christ is the fulfillment of old testament prophecy ). In fact I guess it was the Jews uninspired but probably contextually correct (by all their scholarly standards) but rigid , interpretation of the old testament which partly led them to reject Christ as their Messiah. "How could he come from Galilee?" they said.
 
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I should add, that it is not only preachers who do this but every believer when they read or interpret the bible privately for themself. They are basically reading under the inspiration God gives them personally and the inspiration which God gave the author of scripture. Whenever you take a new testament scripture that is written for somebody esle in mind, and apply it to your own life, you are taking it out of context to get the spiritual truth from it.

This issue of personal inspiration is one of the main differences between Catholic and protestant belief in how the scriptures should be used. Catholic may say you need the Church, protestants say each individual believer can be inspired under personal inspiration of the Holy Spirit. When we say something is "not biblical" what we really mean is, "another person's inspiration from the scripture does not agree with the divine inspiration which I got from the same passage". But if we all agreed on the same things, I guess the common cliche "what does the passage mean or say to you, which passages speak to you", is null and void. So I don't mind a good teaching on how to have more peace from J. Meyer based on a few scriptures which are taken out of context. I'd probably do the same thing myself anyway in private devotions. But if I know the teaching is "how to not have more peace and hate your fellow man", I know that isn't a spiritual truth and should be rejected out-right.
 
J

jgrig2

Guest
Do you like or dislike Joyce Meyer? Explain!


One of her fans,
~Ren
Saw her in person live in Chicago along with HillSong before a few years back. She seemed very nice and sincere. I have a problem with giving any person without some sort of theological education or at least advanced knowledge of the scriptures (tested of course) the capacity to teach in the Church at all. But this is not a church and as long as she does not start a church or teach in a pastor posistion I do not see the inheritantly sinfulness because someone Reformed like Joni Errickon Tadda does it.

As for the content: I do not believe the Gospel guarentees anything but the Promises of justification, sanctification, and eventual glorification. The so called promises of physical helaing and financial blessings are not a given in the Gospel but apart of the providence of God. I also think they misunderstand the Church's relation to Israel: the promises made to Abraham and to Israel and to the Church. The Church was the promise made to Abraham granted through Christ (gal. is all about that). And all the physical blessings are no themselves promised to us rather they are a shadow of the richness we have promised in Christ. The vast major of Christians throughout history have been poor, illeterate and never had a Bible unless you count hearing it in the Church through readings or singing of the psalms (anothe reason why we ought to sing psalms today!). She is very popular with women because of her rape story and many women feel connected to her because of that and she is very good and reaching the emotions. I think her greatest need is not more fillings of the ''holy ghost'' as she may call it but professional training in Greek, Hebrew and reading. It is a dangerous thing to build an entire life-theology based on a uneducated understanding of a bible translation.

Is she a heretic? no. Are there true born again believers who listen to her? yes Can some persons be saved hearing her? yes. But can she phrase things in such a way that heretics would love her? yes. Are there false christians who love her? yes. And does the emotionalism and revivalism contained in her meetings produce many persons who make decisions for Christ who then fall away from the faith after a VERY SHORT while (like most in evangelicalism)? OHH FRICK YES.

I will finish up my post with this anecdote. There was this cute 27 year old girl who went to law school (intelligent eh) whom I meet there as a 19 year old kid. She said the Holy Spirit told her that we ought ot mary and move to Las Vegas to help start a church plant. If I would have done that I would have never came to Québec and probably never Reformed and learn french and plan to become a pastor here eventually. Was I wrong to ''supress'' the spirit then as I said to that young laddy ''I do not believe God the Holy Spirit told you. I believe these are your thoughts and these ideas while not sinful violate God's rules of wisdom laid out in scripture. For that reason alone I cannot''? I still talk to this girl and she still loves God and said maybe she didn't understand God completely back then and was glad I said no because she is now married with 2 little cute kids. She is still charismatic but has toned it down a lot because of age and reading of scripture and just experiencing life outside the charismatic buble and the schhool bubble (with work well together).
 
Jul 29, 2009
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Do you like or dislike Joyce Meyer? Explain!


One of her fans,
~Ren

I don't like her but it's for personal reasons. She seems arrogant to me and reminds me of a busy-body in my church that repeatedly stuck her nose where it didn't belong (i.e. my family business). If you're a fan, knock yourself out. . .
 
L

Linette

Guest
Here's an excerpt from the Christian Research Institute (CRI) on the teachings of Joyce Meyer. I think you'll find this both informative and surprising. Full journal article can viewed at http://www.equip.org/articles/the-teachings-of-joyce-meyer

The Teachings of Joyce Meyer

Joyce Meyer is a popular Pentecostal preacher living outside of St. Louis, MO, who has been in fulltime ministry since 1980. She is a best-selling author in the Christian market, and her books cover everything from America’s Christian heritage to weight-loss. But she is perhaps best known from her radio and television program, Life in the Word, both of which are broadcast nationally and internationally.

Meyer shares the platform from time to time with Word of Faith teachers like, for example, Kenneth Copeland, Jesse Duplantis, Benny Hinn, and T.D. Jakes. CRI is critical of and concerned with some of her practices and teachings.

In her 1991 booklet, The Most Important Decision You Will Ever Make, she teaches a hallmark doctrine of Faith theology, namely, that Christ had to suffer in hell to atone for our sins and be born again:

During that time He entered hell, where you and I deserved to go (legally) because of our sin….He paid the price there.…no plan was too extreme…Jesus paid on the cross and in hell….God rose up from His throne and said to demon powers tormenting the sinless Son of God, “Let Him go.” Then the resurrection power of Almighty God went through hell and filled Jesus….He was resurrected from the dead ¾ the first born-again man.

Her assertions are not unlike those of leading Word of Faith proponent Kenneth Copeland, who also believes Christ’s death on the cross was not sufficient to atone for our sins, and that His work of redemption was completed by suffering in hell and being born again.


Faith teachers, including Joyce Meyer, teach the necessity of Jesus having to pay for our sins in hell, under the torment of Satan and his angels ¾ a teaching both unsubstantiated by and contrary to Scripture. The entirety of Christ’s atoning work (i.e., His suffering and death in our place) occurred on the cross (e.g., 1 Peter 2:24), ending with His proclamation, “It is finished” (John 19:30). The Christ of Faith theology literally had to become sin, taking on the nature of Satan while in hell, thereby needing to be born again in hell before His resurrection could occur.
 
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There are something like 6 or 7+ different models of the atonement existing in Christian theology today, so, what do you expect?
If you bother to go to her website you can check up her statement of faith which is straight down the line Gospel.
 
M

michae

Guest
this is why we need to avoid foolish questions..titus 3:9..i hope the starter of this thread has learned a lesson.
 
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shad

Guest
Here's an excerpt from the Christian Research Institute (CRI) on the teachings of Joyce Meyer. I think you'll find this both informative and surprising. Full journal article can viewed at http://www.equip.org/articles/the-teachings-of-joyce-meyer

The Teachings of Joyce Meyer

Joyce Meyer is a popular Pentecostal preacher living outside of St. Louis, MO, who has been in fulltime ministry since 1980. She is a best-selling author in the Christian market, and her books cover everything from America’s Christian heritage to weight-loss. But she is perhaps best known from her radio and television program, Life in the Word, both of which are broadcast nationally and internationally.

Meyer shares the platform from time to time with Word of Faith teachers like, for example, Kenneth Copeland, Jesse Duplantis, Benny Hinn, and T.D. Jakes. CRI is critical of and concerned with some of her practices and teachings.

In her 1991 booklet, The Most Important Decision You Will Ever Make, she teaches a hallmark doctrine of Faith theology, namely, that Christ had to suffer in hell to atone for our sins and be born again:

During that time He entered hell, where you and I deserved to go (legally) because of our sin….He paid the price there.…no plan was too extreme…Jesus paid on the cross and in hell….God rose up from His throne and said to demon powers tormenting the sinless Son of God, “Let Him go.” Then the resurrection power of Almighty God went through hell and filled Jesus….He was resurrected from the dead ¾ the first born-again man.

Her assertions are not unlike those of leading Word of Faith proponent Kenneth Copeland, who also believes Christ’s death on the cross was not sufficient to atone for our sins, and that His work of redemption was completed by suffering in hell and being born again.

Faith teachers, including Joyce Meyer, teach the necessity of Jesus having to pay for our sins in hell, under the torment of Satan and his angels ¾ a teaching both unsubstantiated by and contrary to Scripture. The entirety of Christ’s atoning work (i.e., His suffering and death in our place) occurred on the cross (e.g., 1 Peter 2:24), ending with His proclamation, “It is finished” (John 19:30). The Christ of Faith theology literally had to become sin, taking on the nature of Satan while in hell, thereby needing to be born again in hell before His resurrection could occur.
Linette, you are right on!
 
Oct 8, 2009
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What is the Bible even for, If the bible says a women is to keep silent is that not what it means. Otherwise we are just making a stab in the dark. No wander there are so many people getting turned off and leaving the faith. I don't care if Joyce Myer is the Best speaker in the world, the Bible says she isn't to use authority over the man and that is what it means
 
K

Knightjester

Guest
Joyce Meyer: "I don't care what the theologians say about me!"

:p
 
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greatkraw

Guest
There is no obedience (1. Cor 14; 1. Tim 2) and sencondly she teaches a lot of errors. But this has to be because she teaches pentecostal doctrines.

What a christianity who tolerates all this. Ecumenism, secularisation, superficiality, godlessness. This is Laodicea.


14And to the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: These things says the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:
15I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot; I would thou wert cold or hot.
16Thus because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I am about to spue thee out of my mouth.
17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and am grown rich, and have need of nothing, and knowest not that *thou* art the wretched and the miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked;
18I counsel thee to buy of me gold purified by fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white garments, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness may not be made manifest; and eye-salve to anoint thine eyes, that thou mayest see.
19I rebuke and discipline as many as I love; be zealous therefore and repent.
20Behold, I stand at the door and am knocking; if any one hear my voice and open the door, I will come in unto him and sup with him, and he with me.
21He that overcomes, to him will I give to sit with me in my throne; as *I* also have overcome, and have sat down with my Father in his throne.
22He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies.





The lord is outside of Laodicea. We exchanged biblical truth with human oppinions.
I think you nailed it.
 
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